|
|
Post by molson5 on Jan 21, 2013 15:33:29 GMT -5
I think Vince saved wrestling. It wasn't going to survive with the territory dinosaurs that were running things. The industry needed competition to evolve and to meet the needs of newer audiences, and the challenges of cable TV and the internet. We still have territories in a sense, we call them indies now. That's what wrestling would look like if nobody pushed it into modern times. Somebody else would have done it if not Vince, but they might not have been as successful.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Jan 21, 2013 15:54:03 GMT -5
I think Vince saved wrestling. It wasn't going to survive with the territory dinosaurs that were running things. The industry needed competition to evolve and to meet the needs of newer audiences, and the challenges of cable TV and the internet. We still have territories in a sense, we call them indies now. That's what wrestling would look like if nobody pushed it into modern times. Somebody else would have done it if not Vince, but they might not have been as successful. I don't really see what you mean: with the rise of cable somebody would've likely stepped into the role, but the early days of cable also meant plenty of opportunities for local TV. Given pro wrestling's tendency to jump aboard whatever the newest development in mass media is (TV, cable, internet, etc.), it would have survived just fine, albeit in a form none of us could guess from where we sit in history. Plus, the indies are NOT equivalent with the territories, not in the least (at least not the chief territories). Not to say guys were never stiffed on pay in the territories, not to say every territory was flush with money, but it was much easier to make a living in the territory era than it is today making one on the indies, where there are less chances for decent money. Vince raised the ceiling for how much a pro-wrestler could make in the United States, that much is certainly true, but he also shrunk the number of openings there were available for pro wrestlers to make a decent living. These days, you either make it to WWE, get a full-time contract from TNA, or be one of the VERY few guys who's free to straddle the line between the indies, Japan, and a few other places. In ye olden dayes, while there weren't guys making millions, there were certainly more guys who were able to buy a nice house and provide for their families. |
|
|
|
Post by molson5 on Jan 21, 2013 16:01:19 GMT -5
I think Vince saved wrestling. It wasn't going to survive with the territory dinosaurs that were running things. The industry needed competition to evolve and to meet the needs of newer audiences, and the challenges of cable TV and the internet. We still have territories in a sense, we call them indies now. That's what wrestling would look like if nobody pushed it into modern times. Somebody else would have done it if not Vince, but they might not have been as successful. I don't really see what you mean: with the rise of cable somebody would've likely stepped into the role, but the early days of cable also meant plenty of opportunities for local TV. Given pro wrestling's tendency to jump aboard whatever the newest development in mass media is (TV, cable, internet, etc.), it would have survived just fine, albeit in a form none of us could guess from where we sit in history. Plus, the indies are NOT equivalent with the territories, not in the least (at least not the chief territories). Not to say guys were never stiffed on pay in the territories, not to say every territory was flush with money, but it was much easier to make a living in the territory era than it is today making one on the indies, where there are less chances for decent money. Vince raised the ceiling for how much a pro-wrestler could make in the United States, that much is certainly true, but he also shrunk the number of openings there were available for pro wrestlers to make a decent living. These days, you either make it to WWE, get a full-time contract from TNA, or be one of the VERY few guys who's free to straddle the line between the indies, Japan, and a few other places. In ye olden dayes, while there weren't guys making millions, there were certainly more guys who were able to buy a nice house and provide for their families. How would a territory system even work in modern times? I guess they could be on the local cable sports channels, but by definition, that would make them less successful and less prosperous than how wrestling turned out once it went national. In the dying days of ECW, Tommy Dreamer got a tentative deal with an Ohio sports cable TV station, and Paul Heyman laughed at him and shut the company down. That wasn't going to pay the bills. Regional any time after Vince took over would have been really low rent. And low rent is what most of the territories were at the time. We romanticize them now, but outside of a few exceptions, they didn't draw all that much more than today's bigger indy shows. Most of them did their TV tapings in actual TV studios with 50 fans present. There were a few big arena shows in places like Dallas, but that was the exception. Vince took wrestling out of the bingo halls, classed it up, added a ton more sizzle, and suddenly he could draw 15-20k people at most places across the country on a regular basis. |
|
Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
|
Post by Jimmy on Jan 21, 2013 16:06:18 GMT -5
The WWF did their fair amount of tapings in a TV studio as well.
I don't think you are being fair to the bigger territories. Jim Crockett Promotions and Mid-South would have continued to thrive if not for the need to compete with Vince.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 16:12:24 GMT -5
I, too, laughed when Vince started crying foul about WCW pulling the same stunts and some just as seedy. (Giving away their taped results before the show started, taking his stars - even though they were no longer at their peak performance and not being utilized anyway, etc.)
I seem to remember a thread whether we considered what Bischoff done to be considered "unethical", and it was about 50/50. (I was one that said, "If there's no precedent for some of the things HE did, how is it considered breaking a rule?")
|
|
|
|
Post by molson5 on Jan 21, 2013 16:13:31 GMT -5
I don't think you are being fair to the bigger territories. Jim Crockett Promotions and Mid-South would have continued to thrive if not for the need to compete with Vince. If they went national themselves sure, but after around 1985, almost any form of entertainment that was strictly contained to one area of the country was going to decline. It's kind of a self-fulfilling thing. If it wasn't popular enough to be popular outside of one single region, when further access WAS possible technology-wise, then by definition, it just wouldn't be very popular. Now maybe without the WWE, more and more people hear about mid-south, there'd be demand for it in other parts of the country, and it goes national. But once those doors are torn town, the country shrinks, and a promotion COULD theoretically expand, but there wasn't enough interest for it to happen, then by definition, it's minor league. It might still be popular in that one region of the country, but if nobody else in the country cares about it, even though they had the option to, it's not going to be very big. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 16:21:29 GMT -5
World Class had national syndication and good TV shows, but couldn't capitalize on it because they rarely went anywhere aside from Texas. (And I won't even mention the obvious when it came to the talent.)
Mid-South started going broke once the Southern Plains (Texas, Oklahoma) oil market went bust in the mid-80s. They had no choice but to sell out to somebody or fade away.
|
|
Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
|
Post by Jimmy on Jan 21, 2013 16:36:01 GMT -5
I, too, laughed when Vince started crying foul about WCW pulling the same stunts and some just as seedy. (Giving away their taped results before the show started, taking his stars - even though they were no longer at their peak performance and not being utilized anyway, etc.) I seem to remember a thread whether we considered what Bischoff done to be considered "unethical", and it was about 50/50. (I was one that said, "If there's no precedent for some of the things HE did, how is it considered breaking a rule?") Funniest part of all of it is that Vince blamed Turner personally, who couldn't have been more tuned out to the pro wrestling product under his massive sports umbrella, let alone his massive company. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 17:01:43 GMT -5
I, too, laughed when Vince started crying foul about WCW pulling the same stunts and some just as seedy. (Giving away their taped results before the show started, taking his stars - even though they were no longer at their peak performance and not being utilized anyway, etc.) I seem to remember a thread whether we considered what Bischoff done to be considered "unethical", and it was about 50/50. (I was one that said, "If there's no precedent for some of the things HE did, how is it considered breaking a rule?") Funniest part of all of it is that Vince blamed Turner personally, who couldn't have been more tuned out to the pro wrestling product under his massive sports umbrella, let alone his massive company. Well, when you get to the point of threatening lawsuits, you pin it on the one with the most money. Suing Eric Bischoff wasn't gonna get him a thin dime. That's why when you hear about frivolous lawsuits involving car accidents, there's always some knucklehead who wants to sue the estate of Henry Ford, as if he had anything to do with it. |
|
|
|
Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 21, 2013 17:07:32 GMT -5
He did what he had to do to win Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy. I know Vince is a big revisionist and a sleezey businessman but the same goes for the territories. The territories did NOT coexist and leave each other alone. The often encroached on each others turf, put hits out on each others champs and stole talent from each other. The NWA came together basically for the same reason the five families came together. To put their bs behind them and focus on running things there way. A promoter who did not join the NWA didn't have his territory respected. Sometimes they would go out of their way to ruin them just to prove their point. Vince is a hypocrite for whining about WCW, but the territories are hypocrites for whining when their old boy system crashed down too. |
|
|
|
Post by molson5 on Jan 21, 2013 17:27:45 GMT -5
Vince is a hypocrite for whining about WCW, but the territories are hypocrites for whining when their old boy system crashed down too. Definitely - the NWA was almost constantly being investigated by the department of justice for anti-trust law violations - there were negotiations and then consent decrees that governed NWA activities, and then they would always seem to violate the consent decrees, but somehow they kept the federal government at bay (perhaps through the relationships between the most powerful territory owners and important legislators). There was nothing illegal (or IMO, unethical), about Vince going into town and offering a better product. Certainly, he didn't have the same issues with the government (well, at least not for his business practices). The NWA was scummy from the very start. It was a cartel that blacklisted and ruined guys' careers if they didn't play ball. Vince was just one company, and managed to destroy them, because the old product and business model was tired and Vince's was better. |
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jan 23, 2013 12:31:35 GMT -5
Oddly enough, the guys who were big stars in the 1980's WWF all cut their teeth in the "corrupt" territories.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jan 23, 2013 14:06:18 GMT -5
he did what any smart businessman in his position would've done. it's business, you can't afford to be touchy-feely.
|
|
ToyfareMark
Vegeta
A WINNER IS YOU!
In Hutch I trust!
Posts: 9,662 
|
Post by ToyfareMark on Jan 23, 2013 17:10:49 GMT -5
He did what he had to do to win Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy. One intersection, 4 gas stations. The wrestling business isn't a beautiful and unique snowflake. |
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 23, 2013 18:55:00 GMT -5
Vince used some underhanded tactics, yes. But I was pretty much on board.
Until he then cried like a little bitch when Bischoff did it better than him.
|
|
|
|
Post by sportatorium on Jan 25, 2013 0:14:45 GMT -5
If Vince didn't do it, wrestling today either:
A. Might not exist
B. Would be almost the same thing with someone else being the one to raid/kill the territories
|
|
|
|
Post by willywonka666 on Jan 25, 2013 8:35:01 GMT -5
If Vince didn't do it, wrestling today either: A. Might not exist B. Would be almost the same thing with someone else being the one to raid/kill the territories I don't think it wouldn't exist. Maybe not the way we know it now i.e. more than one big promotion, but of course it would exist |
|
hitch
Don Corleone
Hitch knot
Posts: 1,696
|
Post by hitch on Jan 25, 2013 10:10:39 GMT -5
Something that's often missed in the story of how Vince 'bullied' the territories is that at the time Vince had considerably less money, wealth and resources than they did. People look at it through the prism of what came later and think of this arrogant guy from New York muscling everyone else out of the way.
In fact what he was doing was challenging the establishment with far less means to do so than they had to defeat him. Some of these guys were already millionaires, most of them in fact. Vince wasn't. Vince was a young guy with one territory that at the time was still partially controlled by his father.
So this idea he went in and rode roughshod over the poor small territories, is erroneous. He took on bigger, won and thus became bigger himself. If any bullying was going on it was the old-school territory guys trying to nix the progress of this young upstart.
|
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jan 25, 2013 10:32:20 GMT -5
Something that's often missed in the story of how Vince 'bullied' the territories is that at the time Vince had considerably less money, wealth and resources than they did. People look at it through the prism of what came later and think of this arrogant guy from New York muscling everyone else out of the way. In fact what he was doing was challenging the establishment with far less means to do so than they had to defeat him. Some of these guys were already millionaires, most of them in fact. Vince wasn't. Vince was a young guy with one territory that at the time was still partially controlled by his father. So this idea he went in and rode roughshod over the poor small territories, is erroneous. He took on bigger, won and thus became bigger himself. If any bullying was going on it was the old-school territory guys trying to nix the progress of this young upstart. Seriously? The guy who was running NYC, the largest market for entertainment, was the "upstart"? The guy who had TV deals with TBS, MTV and USA when he was taking on the territories? The story of Vince as the plucky underdog makes for a nice story, but he always had the advantage over the NWA territories. To suggest otherwise is revisionism. |
|
Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
|
Post by Jimmy on Jan 25, 2013 13:06:45 GMT -5
Something that's often missed in the story of how Vince 'bullied' the territories is that at the time Vince had considerably less money, wealth and resources than they did. People look at it through the prism of what came later and think of this arrogant guy from New York muscling everyone else out of the way. In fact what he was doing was challenging the establishment with far less means to do so than they had to defeat him. Some of these guys were already millionaires, most of them in fact. Vince wasn't. Vince was a young guy with one territory that at the time was still partially controlled by his father. So this idea he went in and rode roughshod over the poor small territories, is erroneous. He took on bigger, won and thus became bigger himself. If any bullying was going on it was the old-school territory guys trying to nix the progress of this young upstart. Seriously? The guy who was running NYC, the largest market for entertainment, was the "upstart"? The guy who had TV deals with TBS, MTV and USA when he was taking on the territories? The story of Vince as the plucky underdog makes for a nice story, but he always had the advantage over the NWA territories. To suggest otherwise is revisionism. Yup. When Vince took over in 1982, the WWF was right up there with Jim Crockett Promotions, Mid-South, and the AWA in terms of viability. Vince himself may have been considered an 'upstart', but with nearly 20 years of history the World Wrestling Federation was well established and he had plenty of viable assets. |
|
