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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jan 25, 2013 13:37:41 GMT -5
Seriously? The guy who was running NYC, the largest market for entertainment, was the "upstart"? The guy who had TV deals with TBS, MTV and USA when he was taking on the territories? The story of Vince as the plucky underdog makes for a nice story, but he always had the advantage over the NWA territories. To suggest otherwise is revisionism. Yup. When Vince took over in 1982, the WWF was right up there with Jim Crockett Promotions, Mid-South, and the AWA in terms of viability. Vince himself may have been considered an 'upstart', but with nearly 20 years of history the World Wrestling Federation was well established and he had plenty of viable assets. Absolutely. Go back and read Bret Hart's book and check out his account of the 1983 NWA Board of Directors convention; he had accompanied his father to the meeting. This was the convention where Vince announced that the WWF was withdrawing from the NWA. Vince, in his Playboy interview admits that the NWA promoters definitely saw him as a threat. Back to Bret's account, though. Bret asks Stu his opinion on who he thinks is going to win. Stu answers " I would bet on Vince. He has that New York market."
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
Posts: 14,055
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 25, 2013 21:30:29 GMT -5
If Vince didn't do it, there were other promoters who were trying to do the exact same thing. Verne Gagne (AWA) and Roy Shire (San Francisco) were also trying to go national at the same time. Vince was just lucky enough to have the New York media market, plus other major markets like Boston and Philadelphia in his territory.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Jan 25, 2013 23:04:11 GMT -5
I have no problem with Vince hiring away other company/territory's talent (even if sometimes it looks like he hires people just to deprive other's of that talent) because if someone is a free agent then they can sign/enter into a business agreement with whomever they want. I don't care that Vince ran into another in other promoter's town. To quote Bobby Heenan "No one owns a town, you go to a four way intersection you have a different gas stations on each corner". But for whatever reason, something about trying to monopolize the PPV market by telling cable companies that he won't let them carry his pay-per-views if they carry the competition shows just seems like it crossed the line in my opinion.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 26, 2013 0:32:14 GMT -5
I have no problem with Vince hiring away other company/territory's talent (even if sometimes it looks like he hires people just to deprive other's of that talent) because if someone is a free agent then they can sign/enter into a business agreement with whomever they want. I don't care that Vince ran into another in other promoter's town. To quote Bobby Heenan "No one owns a town, you go to a four way intersection you have a different gas stations on each corner". But for whatever reason, something about trying to monopolize the PPV market by telling cable companies that he won't let them carry his pay-per-views if they carry the competition shows just seems like it crossed the line in my opinion. It did cross the line a little bit but it was a pressure gamble on his part that actually wasn't anything new. Most restaurants only carry one brand of soft drink, because they get cushy deals with them to do so. That's why there are two soft drink companies you can find and a few smaller ones you might run into. The NWA was notorious for determining which promotion could run in which venues and where they could run ads. Vince took those tactics to television. I don't think it's ethical, but I don't think for one second that any of those companies who got big enough to whine about it didn't do their fair share of shutting other promoters out of potential revenue streams in their heydays either.
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hughmorris
Bubba Ho-Tep
Resistance is Futile!
Posts: 652
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Post by hughmorris on Jan 26, 2013 0:41:45 GMT -5
Vince did what he had to do. Is there really any honor among "criminals?" Some of those territorial promoters where just as shady as Vince. The only issue I have with this is when Vince went crying when wCw was doing the same thing he had already done. But in the end the E empire prevailed so i guess we know that Vince is still the king of Sports Entertainment...
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Feb 3, 2013 15:30:08 GMT -5
Don't forget buying their TV slots, and I've even heard stories of guys arriving at an arena to find the place locked up or something else going on. When they investigated, venue management told them, "Someone from your office called and canceled," when no one had.
I would probably hold it against him anyway, just for the long term harm I feel it's done to the business, but when he turned around and cried about WCW signing his wrestlers away and had the balls to look into a camera and say, "My philosophy has always been help yourself, don't hurt the other guy," I decided he can go piss up a rope.
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
Posts: 12,288
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Post by ICBM on Feb 3, 2013 17:43:04 GMT -5
It was hard to vote yes, he was justified. But I did. His tactics differ wildly from my personal and professional ethics; however, his aim and end state was to take a form of entertainment that was on a razor thin line between violence and acceptable family entertainment(kids went w/parents to wilting, but not as much as dads did solo), and transform it into something polished and ready for tv. The 80's were a perfect time for it. I went to the ice cap-aides with my grand parents in 1986 at the Sumit in Houston. 15,000 seat arena within a family show that traveled nationwide and gave you something to do together for four hours on Saturday or Sunday. Along the way you bought light sticks, t-shirts, Mickey Mouse ears, the whole smear. Vince took that model and added the rope opera TV angle to it right when cable TV was demanding more slickly produced events and shows to put on their channels. Vince adapted the icecapade model to TV and it worked. Later he adapted it to ppv and basically invented that medium.
None of that however, is possible unless he raids the territories, shatters boundaries to run shows wherever he needed to, under bid syndication markets to get his product on TV there and yes, did dirty dirty dirty tricks like mentioned above. He did not invent those tricks BTW. The old fire marshal gag, or event cancelation by a mysterious third party, had been done in micro verse fashion by territories even thru the NWA era between NWA members with overlapping regions.
I believe he is a hypocrite, a scoundrel, a whiner and and screwed mo wrestlers than a Memphis ring rat, but he is the Czar of wrestling because of it
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Feb 3, 2013 17:57:32 GMT -5
All promoters through history have been scum on one level or another, and Vince is no exception; in fact, many would argue he's been worse than a number of other promoters of his time. It makes it tough to say, but frankly, as said before, it's Vince's hypocrisy that's toughest to swallow. He pillaged, he stole, he threatened, he flexed his financial muscles to absolutely annihilate the territory system, then started crying "but there's room enough for more than one company! We're just a family operation!" when Bischoff decided to turn the tables, and Turner's money, on him. well, he didn't really try to take out WCW until the Monday Night Wars and he nevver did anything to the remnant companies that sprang up from the remains of the territories in the early to mid-90's, SMW, USWA, early ECW. I wonder if the expansion was more about putting others out of business, or scrapping the idea that he couldn't tour where he wanted to.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Feb 3, 2013 17:59:52 GMT -5
Well there have been situations where other companies tried to screw over the WWF. Verne Gagne offered The Iron Sheik $100,000 to break Hulk Hogan's leg at MSG and not let Hogan win the title, something Sheik considered until Sgt. Slaughter told him to talk to Vince about where he was shown why it wasn't the smart thing to do. You're neglecting to say that Hogan skipped out on Verne with no notice and didn't bother to meet his final bookings. Heenan was the only AWA guy to do that. Hogan didn't just suddenly not show up to AWA shows. He went on a tour of Japan first, which I believe Gagne knew about. If he thought Hogan was coming back and he booked him from there, I don't know that I've heard anything that said Hogan encouraged that line of thought
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Feb 3, 2013 18:05:19 GMT -5
Seriously? The guy who was running NYC, the largest market for entertainment, was the "upstart"? The guy who had TV deals with TBS, MTV and USA when he was taking on the territories? The story of Vince as the plucky underdog makes for a nice story, but he always had the advantage over the NWA territories. To suggest otherwise is revisionism. Yup. When Vince took over in 1982, the WWF was right up there with Jim Crockett Promotions, Mid-South, and the AWA in terms of viability. Vince himself may have been considered an 'upstart', but with nearly 20 years of history the World Wrestling Federation was well established and he had plenty of viable assets. So he was up there with the guys who all did what WWF did. Tour a large but defined area. Expansions cost money, and Vince had sunk a lot of his money into actually buying the company from his dad. The increased roster, the expanded touring. It all cost money he might not have.
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