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Post by willywonka666 on Jan 20, 2013 11:21:39 GMT -5
I put this here, because it's more about the 80s than anything.
Just a few examples of Vince and what he would call his "Ruthless Aggression"
Raided territories for talent, eventually leading to their demise
Threatened to withhold WWF ppvs from cable companies that carried the NWA's Starrcade 87, thus killing its buyrate
Tried to get Harley Race to jump to the WWF with the NWA title before his match with Flair at Starrcade 83
There are many other examples I know and feel free to add, but what do you think overall. Vince had to run a successful company, I mean if you don't plan to be successful, then what's the point, but could he have done things differently where we could still have other promotions, or do you have to shoot to kill in this industry?
Discuss
My vote is no. I mean I don't know if he had to expand, or could expand without killing his competition, but I think he was a real bastard in many ways.
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Post by notasmark on Jan 20, 2013 11:33:41 GMT -5
Every successful person is a bastard in some way and every successful person has to take risks, that's what Vince did.
He made his company national basically monopolizing the entire United States wrestling scene. He did it at any cost and if he hadn't of done it someone else would have. Probably the AWA or JCP. Regardless of whether they say they'd do it or not I think if push came to shove they would.
The problem I do have with Vince McMahons tactics is how in retrospect his people (And maybe he himself) complains about how dirty Bischoff played when Vince basically did most of the same thing (Stealing talent, stealing buildings, stealing ideas)
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
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Post by TGM on Jan 20, 2013 11:34:19 GMT -5
He did what he had to do. From all accounts, the NWA were just as underhanded trying to put a stop to the expansion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 11:36:22 GMT -5
It was evil, maniacal, and just plain mean. But it was smart as it put Vince on top of the wrestling world and not many have gotten even close to taking out his empire. He did what he had to do to win
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 20, 2013 13:30:40 GMT -5
He did what he had to do to win Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 20, 2013 14:03:23 GMT -5
He did what he had to do to win Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy. Well there have been situations where other companies tried to screw over the WWF. Verne Gagne offered The Iron Sheik $100,000 to break Hulk Hogan's leg at MSG and not let Hogan win the title, something Sheik considered until Sgt. Slaughter told him to talk to Vince about where he was shown why it wasn't the smart thing to do.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 20, 2013 14:32:52 GMT -5
All promoters through history have been scum on one level or another, and Vince is no exception; in fact, many would argue he's been worse than a number of other promoters of his time.
It makes it tough to say, but frankly, as said before, it's Vince's hypocrisy that's toughest to swallow. He pillaged, he stole, he threatened, he flexed his financial muscles to absolutely annihilate the territory system, then started crying "but there's room enough for more than one company! We're just a family operation!" when Bischoff decided to turn the tables, and Turner's money, on him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 14:38:05 GMT -5
The talent raiding I have no problem with really because if you want to be the best promotion you need the best talent. The stuff with threatening to withhold PPVs to companies that aired competition PPVs just seems really underhanded though so that I don't agree with
But yeah his hypocrisy on the whole issue when it came to WCW is the most annoying part
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mrmulluk
Bubba Ho-Tep
I am always funny. I am never joking.
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Post by mrmulluk on Jan 20, 2013 15:48:41 GMT -5
I don't think I can adequately get into this discussion without straying straight into politics, so out of deference to the rules and mods I'll merely cast my vote secret-ballot style.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 20, 2013 16:41:26 GMT -5
I think history shows that the AWA was the one territory that Vince really screwed as the only top guy that finished dates for them was Heenan. Everybody else left right away.
A company like Stampede was crippling the Harts financially, and World Class stayed fairly popular until the late 80's (they failed due to Fritz's stubborness)
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bigbadbull
Don Corleone
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Post by bigbadbull on Jan 20, 2013 17:19:10 GMT -5
I don't think I can adequately get into this discussion without straying straight into politics, so out of deference to the rules and mods I'll merely cast my vote secret-ballot style. Everything you said. Linda's recent Senate run is an example, but you know-politics.
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Post by thegame415 on Jan 20, 2013 20:15:56 GMT -5
If you want success, you're going to have to make a lot of enemies.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 20, 2013 20:46:01 GMT -5
All promoters through history have been scum on one level or another, and Vince is no exception; in fact, many would argue he's been worse than a number of other promoters of his time. It makes it tough to say, but frankly, as said before, it's Vince's hypocrisy that's toughest to swallow. He pillaged, he stole, he threatened, he flexed his financial muscles to absolutely annihilate the territory system, then started crying "but there's room enough for more than one company! We're just a family operation!" when Bischoff decided to turn the tables, and Turner's money, on him. Can't say anything else, this sums it up perfectly.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Jan 20, 2013 20:55:00 GMT -5
He did what he had to do to win Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy. But the spreading technology known as cable was making that hard. Georgia Championship Wrestling was already expanding into places like Ohio and Detroit with cards, and it was a show shown across the country instead of just their local area. Crockett was setting his eyes on cable along with Fritz looking at nationwide syndication. Vince simply did what one of those people would have tried first...he was just more ruthless at it.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jan 20, 2013 21:05:44 GMT -5
Here's the question I have, though: how do you "win" when there's no war on? I'm not talking about the Monday Night Wars, I'm talking about the territories. Everybody was coexisting and leaving one another alone. The WWF could have survived indefinitely if it had just continued to operate in the northeast and hadn't tried to wipe out all the other promotions, right? It wasn't self-preservation. Vince wasn't in a "kill or be killed" situation, he was just greedy. Well there have been situations where other companies tried to screw over the WWF. Verne Gagne offered The Iron Sheik $100,000 to break Hulk Hogan's leg at MSG and not let Hogan win the title, something Sheik considered until Sgt. Slaughter told him to talk to Vince about where he was shown why it wasn't the smart thing to do. You're neglecting to say that Hogan skipped out on Verne with no notice and didn't bother to meet his final bookings. Heenan was the only AWA guy to do that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 7:29:44 GMT -5
There is a reason some people have equated wrestling with the seedy underbelly of the mob, and it isn't the ethical way they did business.
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Post by willywonka666 on Jan 21, 2013 7:52:14 GMT -5
Well there have been situations where other companies tried to screw over the WWF. Verne Gagne offered The Iron Sheik $100,000 to break Hulk Hogan's leg at MSG and not let Hogan win the title, something Sheik considered until Sgt. Slaughter told him to talk to Vince about where he was shown why it wasn't the smart thing to do. You're neglecting to say that Hogan skipped out on Verne with no notice and didn't bother to meet his final bookings. Heenan was the only AWA guy to do that. true, but he might have stuck around if Verne wasn't making money off of his name with t shirt sales and not giving Hogan a taste of the action
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 21, 2013 13:15:26 GMT -5
There's no honor among thieves, liars, and carnies.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 21, 2013 13:26:53 GMT -5
It makes it tough to say, but frankly, as said before, it's Vince's hypocrisy that's toughest to swallow. He pillaged, he stole, he threatened, he flexed his financial muscles to absolutely annihilate the territory system, then started crying "but there's room enough for more than one company! We're just a family operation!" when Bischoff decided to turn the tables, and Turner's money, on him. This.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 21, 2013 13:43:04 GMT -5
I think he was ahead of the curve, and that makes him look like a real bad guy when there are probably many that would have done the same thing had they thought of it first.
Technology was going to make the territory system obsolete eventually, and the reality of expanding television options ensured that it was only a matter of time before someone tried to capitalize on a nation-wide scale. I don't really like the notion that he stole talent. You can't strictly steal talent, you can offer them more money and a better position, and it's on them if they take it, but that's not stealing, that's just business. I think he was the first one to have a serious chance at making wrestling promotions a nationwide thing, but there is no way that someone else wouldn't have done the same thing if they could have.
That said, he's done far more than his fair share of scummy things, and some of these things still occur today.
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