Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 16,502
|
Post by Mac on Jan 22, 2013 21:59:49 GMT -5
What seperates this from backyard wrestling? Theres two dozen people in an elks lodge watching an adult beat up a kid who doesnt have a drivers license yet.
I chuckle when I hear about these guys "protecting the business" when the business they're in is basically a part time gig/ hobby away from their real job.
I'm sure these guys take themselves seriously and Im sure some of them are probably pretty good athletes. But they're not protecting a business. They're really not even part of that business.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kick Your Face on Jan 23, 2013 3:21:22 GMT -5
What seperates this from backyard wrestling? Theres two dozen people in an elks lodge watching an adult beat up a kid who doesnt have a drivers license yet. I chuckle when I hear about these guys "protecting the business" when the business they're in is basically a part time gig/ hobby away from their real job. I'm sure these guys take themselves seriously and Im sure some of them are probably pretty good athletes. But they're not protecting a business. They're really not even part of that business. Are you joking? |
|
|
|
Post by thetimetraveler on Jan 23, 2013 14:42:56 GMT -5
There's really two issues here.
1. He never should have shot on the kid. It doesn't matter what a wrestler thinks of it because the kid is barely old enough to drive.
2. This small little kid should NEVER have been in the ring. Shame on the promoter and the kid's guardians. He has no muscle mass and zero ability from what I saw on YouTube.
I watched the match and several questions kept popping into my head.
Why didn't Kozina just refuse the match? In my opinion he had the right.
Why didn't the ref change the finish or communicate with the kid better?
Why didn't the promoter stop this two minutes in?
Why was a minor who looks like he has an eating disorder working that style? Why not be a high flyer?
It's just stupidity on the part of all of them.
|
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 23, 2013 14:49:21 GMT -5
It's a bit unfair to criticize the kids size and say he shouldn't be wrestling. Him being under 18 is fair to say as he is a minor. He took a whooping and didn't complain so clearly he is tougher than most. Size is becoming more and more of a non factor in wrestling with the older generation dying out. If this was the old days a lot of great workers would've never got into wrestling
|
|
|
|
Post by thetimetraveler on Jan 23, 2013 14:54:51 GMT -5
It's a bit unfair to criticize the kids size and say he shouldn't be wrestling. Him being under 18 is fair to say as he is a minor. He took a whooping and didn't complain so clearly he is tougher than most. Size is becoming more and more of a non factor in wrestling with the older generation dying out. If this was the old days a lot of great workers would've never got into wrestling I agree to an extent, but there's differences in size. Daniel Bryan and CM Punk are considered "small" when they're really just short. They're both in great shape and at least look athletic. This kid is just extremely skinny. |
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 23, 2013 15:04:01 GMT -5
It's a bit unfair to criticize the kids size and say he shouldn't be wrestling. Him being under 18 is fair to say as he is a minor. He took a whooping and didn't complain so clearly he is tougher than most. Size is becoming more and more of a non factor in wrestling with the older generation dying out. If this was the old days a lot of great workers would've never got into wrestling I agree to an extent, but there's differences in size. Daniel Bryan and CM Punk are considered "small" when they're really just short. They're both in great shape and at least look athletic. This kid is just extremely skinny. Yet he is tougher than pretty much all of us here. In sure he knew the risks of being a wrestler. I've never a fan of too small or too fat size arguments as long as someone gets properly trained and has the ability to entertain. Besides wrestling is fake, size should technically be a non issue anyway and be used to tell a story (Rey vs Taker) |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 23, 2013 15:33:02 GMT -5
I'll try to guess the answers to those questions. Why didn't Kozina just refuse the match? In my opinion he had the right. Because he's a dick. I don't think Kozina was listening to anything the ref was saying. The ref might also have not known what was going on. On this one I have no idea. For all we know, he might be, but if you're a high flyer I assume you sort of have to be able to rely on your opponent to help you. E.g., catch you when you do a dive to the outside, stay in place and allow you to land on him if you do a SSP or something, and so on. And Kozina was not being cooperative. Probably a good thing that Kidd didn't take any risks. I googled what Adam Pearce had to say about it, and Pearce tells a story of when he was starting out. He says he was 18 and honestly, his ego was getting kind of big. So he was supposed to take on Bull Pain, a guy who was bigger than him, and all Bull said to him before the match was "See you in the ring, kid." Adam says he was scared of what Bull might do to him and, sure enough, Bull stiffed and stretched him in the ring. However, Bull didn't embarrass him; in fact, Pearce went over clean at the end of that match and Bull went along with it. Pearce doesn't hold this against Bull Pain, for two reasons. First, after the match Bull talked to him, and explained why he did what he did. Pearce didn't go into specifics, so I'll go out on a limb and guess that it went something like "Look kid, if you act like you're better than everybody, it's going to piss people off, and one of the people you piss off might decide to hit you for real when you wrestle him. And he might be a whole lot harder on you than I was. So it's in your best interests to not walk around acting like you're the shit. Does that make sense to you?" (This is the kind of point that I think Bull could have made by talking to Pearce before the match, and if he insisted on getting physical one or two stiff shots would've made the point just as well IMO, but whatever.) Did Kozina have a similar talk with Kidd? If not, then the only "lesson" Kidd takes away from this is "I just got beat up for no reason." Second, Pearce emphasized that he was 18 years old when it happened to him. He wasn't still a minor. Anyway, here are my feelings on the "protecting the business" stuff. While I disagree with the above post that indy wrestlers aren't part of the pro wrestling business (if they're making money, that qualifies as "business"), here's a f***ing news flash for anybody like Tony Kozina or BJ Whitmer or anybody else who gets pissed about the business not being protected: KAYFABE IS DEAD. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT PRO WRESTLING IS FAKE. And I know that the word "fake" is a berserk button for some people in the wrestling industry because they see nothing "fake" about the effects of taking bumps or getting legit injured due to accidents, but you know damn well what I mean. We are not seeing two people fighting one another for real, not unless one or both of them are immature dickheads who are incapable of practicing restraint. So if Ryan Kidd wants to say something on Twitter about him being the fakest pro wrestler in the history of pro wrestling or whatever the f*** it was he said, he isn't exposing the business. For f***'s sake, Vincent Kennedy McMahon has exposed the business for the whole goddamn world to see and he did it years before Ryan Kidd was even born by admitting we weren't seeing real fights! Look, if he had started revealing specific people's secrets, like if he said "Here's what Delirious looks like under his mask," I would understand the anger. But that's not what he was doing. What Ryan Kidd was doing was, as I understand it, not taking himself seriously. And you know what? That's his prerogative. So long as he doesn't embarrass people in the ring, so long as he confines his talk about how it's all fake to Twitter rather than having it spill into his in-character promos (and even then it wouldn't necessarily be an unforgivable sin, since we've had guys like the late Brian Pillman doing it with the notorious "I respect you, Booker Man!" incident and his speeches in ECW), I seriously do not see the f***ing problem. And if there really is a real problem? Try talking to the guy. Don't just f***ing lay into him. Wrestlers out there, maybe when you were little and you would hit other kids because you didn't know any better, your parents would break it up and tell you to "use your words" next time. Now that you're adults--physically, anyway, I don't know if all of you have reached that point mentally or emotionally--that advice is more applicable than ever. Grow the f*** up or try your luck in MMA. And by the way, starting a fight with a guy that you know can't beat you, or beating on somebody who isn't trying to fight back? Proves nothing. It takes precisely zero balls, or guts. And the f***ing ironic thing is that when this kind of thing happens in a wrestling angle, when a heel viciously beats somebody who doesn't stand a chance against him? Everybody talks about what a coward he is. Too bad that sentiment doesn't always translate into real life. I actually have more respect for Ryan Kidd than for anybody on Team Ambition because while the easy thing--and probably the smart thing--would've been to get the hell out of that ring rather than risk legitimate injury, he stayed in there and kept on trying to work with Kozina even though it was painful and even though I'm sure it was frightening for him. I wish him the best of luck in the future if he chooses to stay in the pro wrestling business, although if he chooses to quit rather than take more abuse like that on a regular basis, I sure won't blame him. /end rant |
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 23, 2013 16:45:30 GMT -5
It's easy to say
"Wrestling is fake there is no protecting the business" when you're not in wrestling
I can see why wrestlers want to portray done realism in wrestling and keep kayfabe sacred. Us people not in wrestling aren't in a position to chastise these guys.
I can see where they are coming from with all the flack wrestling gets about being fake
At the end of the day it's not ballet. Ryan Kidd is a tough guy, he didn't complain
|
|
Corporate H
Grimlock
He Buries Them Alive
Posts: 13,829
|
Post by Corporate H on Jan 23, 2013 16:50:47 GMT -5
I don't see how he was protecting the business at all, if anything the people in the audience unaware of wrestling's predetermined nature, IE KIDS, sure knew it was "fake" after this..
|
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 23, 2013 16:53:14 GMT -5
It's easy to say "Wrestling is fake there is no protecting the business" when you're not in wrestling I can see why wrestlers want to portray done realism in wrestling and keep kayfabe sacred. Us people not in wrestling aren't in a position to chastise these guys. Yes, we are. They're pretend-fighting. Pretend-fighting is not important. If you develop an elaborate mythology to make it important, and then hurt people over it, then yes, anyone with a brain can point out that you're an idiot and a dick. |
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 23, 2013 17:19:45 GMT -5
It's easy to say "Wrestling is fake there is no protecting the business" when you're not in wrestling I can see why wrestlers want to portray done realism in wrestling and keep kayfabe sacred. Us people not in wrestling aren't in a position to chastise these guys. Yes, we are. They're pretend-fighting. Pretend-fighting is not important. If you develop an elaborate mythology to make it important, and then hurt people over it, then yes, anyone with a brain can point out that you're an idiot and a dick. No we aren't at all. Lack of realism or belief in anything is why wrestling is in the toilet. Audiences have nothing to get invested in because its beat over your head how fake it is. If pretend fighting isn't important then why are you watching wrestling? There is a reason Punks pipe bomb angle was the most popular thing in wrestling in years, we all thought it was real. There is a reason the territories made a ton of money |
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 23, 2013 17:24:33 GMT -5
For the record I'm not saying Kozina was justified BUT
Anyone going "Omg wrestling is fake we all know it" and chastising wrestlers that want to keep some small form of kayfabe are in the wrong in my opinion.
I wouldn't be as big of a fan of Generico if he posted videos of himself without a mask speaking English at home
|
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 23, 2013 19:11:48 GMT -5
No we aren't at all. Lack of realism or belief in anything is why wrestling is in the toilet. Audiences have nothing to get invested in because its beat over your head how fake it is. If pretend fighting isn't important then why are you watching wrestling? There is a reason Punks pipe bomb angle was the most popular thing in wrestling in years, we all thought it was real. You're conflating kayfabe with realism. You're also conflating kayfabe with beating up teenagers to protect a business that requires and deserves no protecting. For the love of Pete, traveling acting troupes don't break character in the middle of the play they're performing, and yeah, that's key to the audience's enjoyment. But they also don't have bizarre, obscure, carnie-like, fratboy backstage behaviors based around Preserving the Business of Theater. And that's what wrestlers are: actors. Period. So, I watch wrestling because wrestling shows can be really fun. I never, ever have the thought that what I'm watching is real, because I'm not five or an idiot. I also never really think that what I'm watching is fake, if it's a good show. Realness doesn't matter. Also, if you or anyone else thought Punk's pipe-bomb promo was real, then there is no appropriate response but an eye roll. It was exciting mostly because it was a great scripted storyline: Holy crap, he's going to leave with the belt! But it's actually kind of offensive that you apparently chalk up wrestling's entertainment value to the culture that led to the Kozina incident. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 23, 2013 22:19:22 GMT -5
Yes, we are. They're pretend-fighting. Pretend-fighting is not important. If you develop an elaborate mythology to make it important, and then hurt people over it, then yes, anyone with a brain can point out that you're an idiot and a dick. No we aren't at all. Lack of realism or belief in anything is why wrestling is in the toilet. Audiences have nothing to get invested in because its beat over your head how fake it is. If pretend fighting isn't important then why are you watching wrestling? For the same reason we watch movies: it's fun. And if after watching The Avengers we see Robert Downey Jr. not pretending to be Tony Stark any more, normal people don't consider the movie they saw any less fun. If you think wrestling's in the toilet--and for argument's sake let's say that "in the toilet" = "not as popular as it was during the Monday Night Wars"--the lack of kayfabe is not the reason. Because during that period, everybody knew it was fake and they were more interested than ever. The reasons for its waning popularity are, in no particular order: -Angles that are so disgusting they make people want to stop watching, like Katie Vick; -Angles that are so stupid they make people want to stop watching, like the Michael Cole/Jerry Lawler feud in WWE or Aces & 8s in TNA; -Shitty promos like the one Cena delivered the other night; -Self-indulgent promos like HHH's long "retirement" speech; -Vince McMahon using Raw as a soapbox when he wants to, which was a big reason why I completely stopped watching in 2003 along with the Katie Vick stuff, and in keeping with this board's rules about what we can't discuss I won't get into what his message from that soapbox was, but if you were watching back then I think you can guess; -CenaWinsLOL, which hey, that's great for business if you want to keep drawing the same ratings and PPV buys that you have for the last few years, but if you want to have any hope of returning your company to its former glory then you need to change how it does things. Perhaps we have been seeing the beginnings of a change over the past year, but it's too early to tell... -Wrestlers continuing to die young, and the reasons that it keeps happening But you know what? I could go on and on about what's wrong with WWE, and that's really the main problem. Because as long as WWE is dominating the industry, how people perceive them affects how people perceive wrestling as a whole. Yes, I could go on and on about what's wrong with WWE, but I'll tell you how not to solve these problems: Beating the shit out of young wrestlers who got "uppity" or who "made a joke of wrestling" according to some stupid-ass locker room code does not help anything! Hey, how many fans do you think that Davey Richards lost because of this when he's still a big star in ROH? How does that help the industry, huh? It doesn't. It hurts ROH. It hurts ROH when he says stuff like this trying to justify everything. So you know what, yeah, I'm angry, and as long as I can say that I'm angry without violating the rules of this board, I'm gonna do it. Like the article I linked to in the first post of the thread says: assault is everybody's business. If somebody gets assaulted, I take it seriously. If the person who commits that assault is praised for it by their peers, I get disgusted. And if somebody disgusts me, I tend not to want to spend money to watch their matches. P.S. I don't see how anything Ryan Kidd was any worse re. exposing wrestling as not real than, say, Dragon Dragon. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 23, 2013 22:20:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 23, 2013 23:32:39 GMT -5
Since I know that there are actual wrestlers who read the board and are members, I want to hear what they got to say. It's easy for fans to pass judgment on this. It's another to hear wrestlers' thoughts on this subject.
And for the record, I find it disrespectful to wrestlers to write off what they do as pretend fighting. The sacrifices and pain they go through is very real.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 24, 2013 0:06:39 GMT -5
Since I know that there are actual wrestlers who read the board and are members, I want to hear what they got to say. It's easy for fans to pass judgment on this. It's another to hear wrestlers' thoughts on this subject. And for the record, I find it disrespectful to wrestlers to write off what they do as pretend fighting. The sacrifices and pain they go through is very real. If I didn't think any wrestlers would read what I wrote, I wouldn't have wrote it in the first place. That would be silly. It is, for the record, pretend fighting because they are not actually fighting. They are pretending to fight. And I can say that without implying that their job is easy. Training to be in ring shape isn't easy. Working WWE's schedule isn't easy. Falling down in the ring doesn't feel good, because while it isn't rock-solid it's also not what you'd call a springy, soft surface. Getting chopped hard enough to turn your chest red doesn't feel good. Taking all of those things into account and more, though, it is still not real fighting. And the guys who do it should be working together and trying to get along instead of having what Wesley Richards calls a "pecking order" where the veterans intimidate the new guys into respecting them and doing things just so, because tradition. Whether you're Electric Mayhem or you're Headcase or you're Vin Gerard or you're somebody I had no idea even had an account here at all or whoever, and if you've got the time and inclination, please, explain to me what kind of horrible slippery slope things would supposedly go down if these traditions were to change. I don't know if these guys disagree with me, agree with me, don't have an opinion, whatever, but I figure they'd know how the minds of Kozina and Whitmer work better than I would, having been around either those specific guys or guys like them. I've always felt that tradition was, by itself, a stupid reason for doing anything. If you're going to do something, you should be prepared to logically explain why it should be done. If you can't come up with anything better than "We do this because, uh, we've always done this", that's kind of weak. |
|
|
|
Post by YiHammer on Jan 24, 2013 0:51:25 GMT -5
Like I said people not in wrestling are in no position to chastise things that go on backstage without knowing the environment
Just because we talk wrestling doesn't mean we are in wrestling
It's easy to say things in wrestling that are tradition (such as paying your dues by setting up the ring) when you're an outsider looking in because you aren't in that environment
|
|
|
|
Post by Larryhausen on Jan 24, 2013 0:56:51 GMT -5
I, personally don't know either party. Ryan Kidd and I have a few mutual friends, since he's a SoCal guy, but I've never met him, so I can't really comment on the situation at hand. But I will say this.
Wrestling is weird. I try to be one of the humblest , pay-my-dues, shut-up-and-listen people in my school, and in my personal life, I sometimes border on an inferiority complex.
BUT, even though I haven't worked a real crowd yet, when I do have a training match, I WILL develop an ego. If the guy I'm working with does something to make me look bad, especially in front of my trainers, I'm going to do one of the following:
1: Either throw a slightly stiff forearm or chop the hell out of him.
2: talk to the guy after class, or
3: Talk to the trainers afterwards, as the most common f***up students are usually the first to leave.
Granted, 2 is the most mature option, and that's reserved for genuine f ups that happen. I've botched things myself, and most times, I apologize during a double down or whatever.
Are 1 and 3 immature? Yup. But, you know what? If its not my fault, I want to make sure that's known, as I'm trying to get myself booked.
What I'm saying is, if wrestling can do that to me, imagine what it can do to a guy who already has a huge ego.
|
|
|
|
Post by hitchslap on Jan 24, 2013 5:13:35 GMT -5
haha @ "protecting the business". protecting it from what, exactly? is beating on a 16 year old anorexic really going a long way to "protect the business"? s*** like this always serves as a powerful reminder how I would never want to be involved in the wrestling industry -- the amount of sleaze is unbelievable. so many losers who forget that they're fake-fighting taking everything so seriously. Kozina is an idiot and should be ashamed of what he did (though with two brain cells, I doubt it).
|
|
