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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 24, 2013 9:08:12 GMT -5
I, personally don't know either party. Ryan Kidd and I have a few mutual friends, since he's a SoCal guy, but I've never met him, so I can't really comment on the situation at hand. But I will say this. Wrestling is weird. I try to be one of the humblest , pay-my-dues, shut-up-and-listen people in my school, and in my personal life, I sometimes border on an inferiority complex. BUT, even though I haven't worked a real crowd yet, when I do have a training match, I WILL develop an ego. If the guy I'm working with does something to make me look bad, especially in front of my trainers, I'm going to do one of the following: 1: Either throw a slightly stiff forearm or chop the hell out of him. 2: talk to the guy after class, or 3: Talk to the trainers afterwards, as the most common f***up students are usually the first to leave. Granted, 2 is the most mature option, and that's reserved for genuine f ups that happen. I've botched things myself, and most times, I apologize during a double down or whatever. Are 1 and 3 immature? Yup. But, you know what? If its not my fault, I want to make sure that's known, as I'm trying to get myself booked. What I'm saying is, if wrestling can do that to me, imagine what it can do to a guy who already has a huge ego. Thanks, Electric Mayhem, for providing much needed insight.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 24, 2013 9:37:39 GMT -5
I, personally don't know either party. Ryan Kidd and I have a few mutual friends, since he's a SoCal guy, but I've never met him, so I can't really comment on the situation at hand. But I will say this. Wrestling is weird. I try to be one of the humblest , pay-my-dues, shut-up-and-listen people in my school, and in my personal life, I sometimes border on an inferiority complex. BUT, even though I haven't worked a real crowd yet, when I do have a training match, I WILL develop an ego. If the guy I'm working with does something to make me look bad, especially in front of my trainers, I'm going to do one of the following: 1: Either throw a slightly stiff forearm or chop the hell out of him. 2: talk to the guy after class, or 3: Talk to the trainers afterwards, as the most common f***up students are usually the first to leave. Granted, 2 is the most mature option, and that's reserved for genuine f ups that happen. I've botched things myself, and most times, I apologize during a double down or whatever. Are 1 and 3 immature? Yup. But, you know what? If its not my fault, I want to make sure that's known, as I'm trying to get myself booked. What I'm saying is, if wrestling can do that to me, imagine what it can do to a guy who already has a huge ego. Thanks, Electric Mayhem, for providing much needed insight. Thanks from me too, E.M. You've got a point that I don't know what kind of mindset people get into when they're in a match. I would hope that everybody was able to control themselves all the time, but that's the ideal situation and life's never ideal. So all I'll say is this, if you feel I'm worth listening to on the subject: you seem like a nice guy and a patient one, and based on your posts here I have a hard time imagining somebody intentionally trying to make you look bad. Try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I could easily be wrong about this and any number of other things, but I'm betting that at least 75% of the time when something like that happens, it's just because the other guy screwed up. Any other opinions from people with firsthand experience would be welcome, and I'm sorry for losing my temper earlier and saying some things which maybe shouldn't have been said. s*** like this always serves as a powerful reminder how I would never want to be involved in the wrestling industry This. Because all it takes is a handful of bad apples to make you worry about all the rest of the apples. Like lots of people here, I got started watching back in the Attitude Era. Well, actually a little bit before then, in 1996. At the time, I was 19, and it all looked really cool. I wondered what it'd be like to work for the WWF or WCW. I knew that getting noticed and getting famous, even if you already had all the ability you needed, didn't happen overnight. I knew that there were lots of other guys who wanted the same thing and were working for it. I didn't think it was likely, but I didn't totally discount it. I thought "Hey, maybe, one of these days, I'll look into trying to learn how to do that. Who knows?" But later I started hearing stories. You know, Bradshaw, Holly, etc. How if you were a rookie you could expect pricks like that to make your early days in the company hell. That killed any desire I had to try and get a job with WWF/E dead. Time passed, and I heard more stories, which convinced me that I'd made the right decision. I figured that was just WWE, though. Particularly after I read somewhere that WCW never had a Wrestler's Court. And when I first learned of the existence of ROH, and then of the other indies, I figured that they were more relaxed, that there was less--or no--bullshit backstage politics, hazing of rookies by vets, etc. I guess that was kind of naive.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jan 24, 2013 17:33:46 GMT -5
Oh of course, I don't think anybody's intentionally trying to bury me or make me look bad, but honestly, I've worked with some guys in training that should, quite frankly, NOT BE THERE. And it's damn frustrating working with them. You try and work with them, but there's only so much a guy can take.
The two situations are vastly different, I'm just trying to point out that, yes, this business gives you a weird frame of mind.
It's not a sport. It's a business with an athletic aesthetic. If I was up for a promotion from my job, I'm gonna make damn sure I look as good as possible. And if I feel that someone is hindering that, intentionally or not, I'm gonna get frustrated and pissed off. Add in the jock mentality that some people have in wrestling, and, well. It can get ugly sometimes.
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Post by crowwreak was WRONG on Jan 25, 2013 11:04:46 GMT -5
All this shows me is Davey Richards' crew continue to be dicks
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Post by héad.casé on Jan 25, 2013 16:42:02 GMT -5
I kind of like to think i'm a humble guy, never complain if I get stiffed, never complain about jobbing, never even complain when people take advantage of me (which has happened a couple of times). But I am not like that, I hit hard but I would never, ever take advantage of someone the way Kozina did. I know i'm only 5 years into my career but I want to help new guys, pass on what I do know and what I have learned. Get input from them on what spots they think would work and whether psychology wise they would make sense.
I mean I know i'm not the best wrestler or athlete in the world but I want me and the guy i'm wrestling to both look good. Because i've been (and arguably still am) where they are and I didn't have it easy when I first started. So if I can make it easy for new guys so they can avoid the crap I got (and am still getting), I will.
Also, around a year ago some guys actually got asked to leave our promotion because they were getting big heads. One even said to his girlfriend that he was in the main event to "carry" the champion.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 25, 2013 19:54:32 GMT -5
Thank you for weighing in, Headcase, and I think it's awesome that you try to do that for newer guys, help them out and ask what they think instead of saying (as some apparently do) "Well, I had to go through a lot of crap to get where I am, so I should put these rookies through the same crap." Found some William Regal quotes the other day, advice on becoming a pro wrestler. They are here: taimapedia.org/index.php?title=Become_a_wrestlerThe last thing on the list is "Treat people the way you would like to be treated." IMO that's good advice for everybody, not just rookies or students. I think if you want people to respect you, treating them well goes a lot further toward that end than hurting them.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Feb 1, 2013 7:10:22 GMT -5
Tbh whenever I hear the phase protecting the business I can't help but chuckle. I mean protecting the business from what ?, we are long past the days of when double crosses could happen in the ring or when a wrestler needed to be tough because stupid fans wanted a fight after the show. its 2013 and if Kozina thinks that shooting on some 16 year old kid infront of 50 people in a high school gym gives the business the some credibility/respectability well then he's a f***ing idiot plain and simple. Hell the irony is that shit like this is probably the reason why non fans think that pro wrestling is a joke and that pro wrestlers are nothing more than caveman like neanderthal morons in the first place. Also what is up with all these indie wrestlers acting like wannabe MMA fighters. Its beyond lame and if Davey Richards and Kozina want to go around acting like their badarses because they take a few lessons how about they put their money where their mouth is and actually compete in MMA.
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Post by Kick Your Face on Feb 2, 2013 2:11:38 GMT -5
I think a quick question can be asked to determine the effectiveness of it. Did it solve anything? The answer is "no". Therefore, the entire thing was pointless.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Feb 2, 2013 4:56:59 GMT -5
we are long past the days of when double crosses could happen in the ring or when a wrestler needed to be tough because stupid fans wanted a fight after the show. Actually, it did happen to Austin Aries during his second ROH title reign. And then there was the guy in the crowd who took a shot at Punk, although he wasn't trying to pick a fight so much as get a free shot in and then hide. That being said: being tough/being able to defend yourself and shooting on somebody in the ring are completely different. You can accomplish the latter without sinking to the former. Honestly, this "teach the rookie a lesson" thing has got to go. Because it doesn't do anything beneficial. Corino, in his blog post, objected to what Kozina did primarily because it cheated the fans out of an actual match, but he went on to say that in a USWA match in the '90s, a guy shot on him to teach him a lesson. Corino says he took it like a man, and moved on, and that someday Ryan Kidd is gonna teach somebody else a lesson the same way. That's just how it is. So what it does is perpetuate this belief among wrestlers that they have the right to legit beat up their opponent if they feel like it and if they can get away with it. [DDP]And that's not a good thing, that's a bad thing.[/DDP]
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Feb 2, 2013 9:48:21 GMT -5
After hearing about this incident I had to watch the match to see what was up. I was expecting to see something that was just short of a massacre from what I was reading. What I saw was a kid get stretched, chopped, and a shoddy ring that fell apart from a 120 lb. man hitting the corner.
I honestly think this whole thing was blown out of proportion, and the only reason it got any attention outside of Iowa is due to the other incident that happened that same weekend.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Feb 2, 2013 16:50:23 GMT -5
After hearing about this incident I had to watch the match to see what was up. I was expecting to see something that was just short of a massacre from what I was reading. What I saw was a kid get stretched, chopped, and a shoddy ring that fell apart from a 120 lb. man hitting the corner. I honestly think this whole thing was blown out of proportion, and the only reason it got any attention outside of Iowa is due to the other incident that happened that same weekend. Hey, if it was just a guy working stiff because that was his style and if Kidd had gone into the match expecting that and thinking "Okay, I can handle that," I might agree with you. Hell, even if Kozina had just thought "You know what, for whatever reason I think this guy is a jerk, so I'm gonna hit him really hard," I might be able to ignore that. But what happened here was that Kozina not only stiffed and stretched him, but refused to work with him. In the beginning it's obvious that Kidd expects to lock up or trade punches or something, and instead of doing that Kozina's just lying there like "Go ahead, see if you can pin me for real, come on." And Kidd didn't know what to do. So what followed was a prolonged squash in which Kidd barely got any offense in at all and in which Kozina (as I recall) completely no-sold it on the few occasions that he did. And the match ended when Kidd visibly tapped out, and Kozina continued to choke him until he was unconscious. Now you tell me: is that considered professional, or is that being an unprofessional dick? You tell me what you think as a wrestler, and I'll tell you what I think as a fan. As a fan, I think that when two performers are in that ring, they should be on the same page and work together to put on a good match. Even if they don't like one another, or if one of them has beef with the other, they should try to do that. I mean if HBK and Bret were willing to sell for one another and take turns going on the offensive despite legit hating each other's guts, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect everybody else to do the same. From both Pearce's and Corino's accounts of when an older guy thought they needed to "learn a lesson", the older guy inflicted a lot of pain on them, but didn't do so at the expense of putting on a good match, and didn't try to make them look like jokes. Scrap Daddy said that he won his match, because that was the plan, and Bull Pain was professional enough to stick to the plan. What Kozina did was say "I don't care about the plan, and I don't care about the finish. I'm not gonna sell for this kid at all, I'm gonna make him look really bad, and if that means that the people here see a s***ty match, well, too bad." Corino said that regardless of whether or not Kidd needed a lesson, doing it that way was unfair to the fans who paid to get in. And I agree with him.
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Feb 2, 2013 21:18:27 GMT -5
Now you tell me: is that considered professional, or is that being an unprofessional dick? You tell me what you think as a wrestler, and I'll tell you what I think as a fan. As a fan, I would agree with everything you said. As somebody who has been in the ring, I can't exactly call Tony Kozina a dick for what he did. One thing I've always thought was if you are in the business of making staged fights look real, it's probably not wise to do things to piss others off. If anything gets to a wrestler, especially one who was trained in the old, it's dropping that four letter word that starts with F, "fake." Personally, I can say this one gets to me. After the time and work I have put into doing this, being injured in the ring, and seeing what others have been through and sacrificed to entertain an audience; it hurts me to hear that word being thrown around. Kidd made the mistake of advertising himself on a public forum as the "fakest fake wrestler." I can understand Mr. Kozina's anger at this. Would I have done the same thing? No, but I can't condemn him for his actions. In the end, I think this incident could be used to Ryan Kidd's advantage in the Magnum Pro area. Even though he didn't win the match nor have much offense, he took a stretching and a beating from a legit badass without tapping out or crying about it. I don't know the guy, but I have respect for him after watching that match. I'm pretty sure the fans who seen it in person do too.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Feb 2, 2013 23:51:45 GMT -5
Now you tell me: is that considered professional, or is that being an unprofessional dick? You tell me what you think as a wrestler, and I'll tell you what I think as a fan. As a fan, I would agree with everything you said. As somebody who has been in the ring, I can't exactly call Tony Kozina a dick for what he did. One thing I've always thought was if you are in the business of making staged fights look real, it's probably not wise to do things to piss others off. If anything gets to a wrestler, especially one who was trained in the old, it's dropping that four letter word that starts with F, "fake." Personally, I can say this one gets to me. After the time and work I have put into doing this, being injured in the ring, and seeing what others have been through and sacrificed to entertain an audience; it hurts me to hear that word being thrown around. Kidd made the mistake of advertising himself on a public forum as the "fakest fake wrestler." I can understand Mr. Kozina's anger at this. Would I have done the same thing? No, but I can't condemn him for his actions. In the end, I think this incident could be used to Ryan Kidd's advantage in the Magnum Pro area. Even though he didn't win the match nor have much offense, he took a stretching and a beating from a legit badass without tapping out or crying about it. I don't know the guy, but I have respect for him after watching that match. I'm pretty sure the fans who seen it in person do too. I think I understand what you're saying, at least partly. One part I don't entirely understand is why that particular word can get such a rise out of wrestlers; I knew that it did long before I heard of this, and it confused me back then too. I mean, I know that people can and do get hurt for real doing this sometimes. I know that takings bumps can and frequently does hurt to some degree (and if I were to guess, I would say how much it hurts depends on who you're working with, how competent you are yourself, and what surface you're landing on, but I could be wrong). I know that there's no real way to create certain illusions; knife-edged chops, for instance, aren't like superkicks where you can easily create the illusion of getting hit AFAIK, and if you take one that makes your chest red or pink then you did get hit for real and when you sell it you're not so much "pretending that something hurt when it didn't" as you are "exaggerating how much it actually did hurt, which it very much did". And I know that it takes a lot of work to learn how to do everything, to get strong enough to do everything you need to, to get your cardio good enough to work for twenty, thirty, forty-five minutes or however long you need to, etc. But at the end of the day, we aren't watching an actual, honest-to-goodness fight, right? And if it's not a real fight, then what are people supposed to call it? I don't feel any more generous toward Kozina myself, but I do agree with you about it sort of working out for Kidd. It would've been easy for him to just bail as soon as he realized what was going on. I wouldn't have blamed him; if you're in a ring with somebody who is legit trying to beat you up and who has an edge in weight and experience, and you have no idea how badly they intend to hurt you, the smartest thing is probably to swallow your pride and get out of there. Take a countout loss, put on a cowardly heel act to give the fans an in-character reason why you're doing it, something like that. I'm pretty sure that Lex Luger once bailed on a match with Bruiser Brody after Brody stopped working with him and Luger was freaked out and had no idea what Brody might do. But instead he decided to do his best to tough it out, he decided to stay in there and try to do the job he was paid to do, he tried to work with Kozina when Kozina wasn't working with him. That undeniably took guts, and I do respect Kidd for it.
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Feb 3, 2013 12:52:40 GMT -5
But at the end of the day, we aren't watching an actual, honest-to-goodness fight, right? And if it's not a real fight, then what are people supposed to call it? Professional Wrestling, pro wrestling, wrestling, sports entertainment, entertainment, a show, or even fixed. My trainer always used to say, "It's not fake, it's fixed." What he meant was what you acknowledged already, matches have a predetermined outcome but it does take a strong body and involves the risk of injuries. There have been allegations of pro boxers throwing fights, but they still take a beating up to the point where one takes the dive. The word "fake" is usually not used by people who appreciate pro wrestling. Most instances I have heard the word used it is in a dismissive or even insulting context. It is used by people who aren't fans to belittle those who are. It's like they are saying, "If you enjoy wrestling, you must be an idiot." When non-fans use it towards wrestlers, it's usually used in a way to say that wrestling takes no talent, no skill, no risks, etc. It's a word that insults the fans and and those involved at the same time. As a person who does this on Wednesday nights and weekends, it stings a bit to hear the word. As for someone who does or has done wrestling as a full time job that puts food on the table and a roof over his/her family's head, this word has to hurt even worse. Nobody likes to be insulted for what they do for a living, whether it be a garbageman, fast food worker, pro wrestler, etc. I don't expect to change your mind about Tony Kozina or what he did. If I was looking at the situation from the viewpoint of a fan, my mind would be hard to change on the situation.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Feb 3, 2013 18:33:19 GMT -5
I appreciate both Scott and Headcase for adding more insight to this discussion. Thanks.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 4, 2013 0:42:21 GMT -5
Seems to be largely a terminology thing-i.e. scripted or staged are words that get the same core idea across, and don't seem as dismissive as fake.
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Post by steamboat1 on Feb 4, 2013 0:52:27 GMT -5
Theres a difference between stiffing somebody and trying to kill them...it was ok for me until the piledriver....you can kill a guy doing that. I don't care how pissed off you are, punch him in the face a couple times and get over it. The dude jumped up and tried to break his neck.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
Posts: 6,737
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Feb 4, 2013 1:43:55 GMT -5
I think that was total BS. I have nothing wrong with stiffing the kid a few times but he crossed the line. As a professional you are supposed to protect the person you are in the ring with and he didn't do that. Fans paid money to be entertained and he gave them a boring match in the ring.
I have been a fan of wrestling my whole life and have had friends involved in the business since 1997 on up. Many of my good friends that were involved in wrestling including others that I have just been fans of have mentioned that they lost their love of wrestling b/c of the bs involved. In some cases they left the ring but remained fans, in other cases they simply lost every bit of joy they had from wrestling. It makes me wonder if these "codes" had anything to do with destroying their love for something they used to give their life for.
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Post by Kick Your Face on Feb 4, 2013 4:39:13 GMT -5
Honestly, if he gave me a shoot piledriver, I would have blacked out after that, and no way would he have delivered it to me again. It would have been a full on shoot from that point on. The chops, whatever, I would just give them back. I love working stiff, so it's not a big deal to me. But yeah, it would have been on after the shoot piledriver.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 9:13:42 GMT -5
What seperates this from backyard wrestling? Theres two dozen people in an elks lodge watching an adult beat up a kid who doesnt have a drivers license yet. I chuckle when I hear about these guys "protecting the business" when the business they're in is basically a part time gig/ hobby away from their real job. This guy speaks the truth. From someone who has been involved a little in an indy promotion and has good friends that wrestle regularly, "protecting the business" is silly. It would have arguably been ludicrous even twenty years ago, but today, it's almost incomprehensibly ignorant. This isn't much different from one guy in a very small-time community theater play attempting to cripple another for letting on to an audience member that what's going on onstage may not be 100% legit. I can't remember who it was (maybe Bret Hart), but someone had an excellent quote on how these wrestlers themselves are the only real marks left - it used to be that wrestlers pretended to hurt each other while everyone believed it was real, now they really do hurt each other while no one believes it's real.
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