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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 22, 2013 8:57:19 GMT -5
Okay, so because of the incident last year in Iowa, which I actually only found out about myself recently and which you can read about here if you're unfamiliar with it... www.cagesideseats.com/2012/7/31/3206025/on-being-disrespected...smark opinion appears to be solidly "Kozina is a piece of shit for doing this, what the hell is wrong with him? And Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly are also assholes for defending him." Which is good. People have sometimes told me I shouldn't believe in absolutes, but I do believe in some, and with regards to pro wrestling one is this: "There is no justification for shooting on your opponent in the ring if he hasn't shot on you first. No exceptions. It doesn't matter who you are, and it doesn't matter who your opponent is." What kind of worries me, though, is that while Tony's two little kiss-ass students have stuck up for him, as far as I know we haven't seen anybody in the wrestling business speak up and say "Yeah, I agree with the fans, that was wrong." I get that maybe some guys or women in the business aren't speaking up because they don't want to make waves and they don't want beef with people they may have to share a card with in the future... ...but the cynic in me can't help but wonder if nobody's spoken up because they're thinking "Yeah, Ryan Kidd disrespected the business, and I would've beaten the shit out of him too." So I'm asking--not just the fans here, but also members who are breaking into wrestling or have broken in--if you had to guess, what do you say the majority of wrestlers believe? By the way, I want to quote from that article I linked to above, because it's a quote I happen to agree with and one that illustrates pretty well where Kozina, Richards, and O'Reilly rank on the scale of unprofessionalism and just all around assholery:
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 22, 2013 9:50:49 GMT -5
Honestly, there are wrestlers I've talked to say if there was another fairly respected guy there Kozina would never have pulled that. Since the 2 biggest names were his students he knew nobody would stop him. But had somebody like a Sami Callihan, Drake Younger, Colt Cabana, ect was there Kozina would've backed down.
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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Jan 22, 2013 10:06:48 GMT -5
I've talked to BJ Whitmer about it and he thought Kozina was in the right. Reason being, Whitmer said the veterans he was around when he broke in brought him up in such a way that you protect the business. He looks at what Kozina did as protecting the business and teaching the guy a lesson.
And I completely agree that if there was a name in there with him, no way does he try that. Calihan would've f***ing killed him.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 22, 2013 10:33:00 GMT -5
Both Adam Pearce and Steve Corino have said that they disapproved of his actions.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 22, 2013 10:34:06 GMT -5
Well, the first response made me feel better because I thought "Okay, I'm glad there are wrestlers out there who would have run down and stopped that s*** because they would agree that Kozina was going too far." And the second response made me feel s***ty again, because I was hoping Whitmer would be better than that. "Protecting the business", what the f*** does that even mean? Everybody knows what wrestling is. Somebody uses the word "fake" and he deserves to be stiffed, thrown against the turnbuckles hard enough to break the ropes, and choked out? Really? That's what Whitmer believes? EDIT TO ADD: Both Adam Pearce and Steve Corino have said that they disapproved of his actions. My respect for both of them just shot up. (Already had a lot of respect for Corino, incidentally.) And I completely agree that if there was a name in there with him, no way does he try that. Calihan would've f***ing killed him. Do you mean if Callihan was in the building, or if Callihan was in the ring with him? Because that's the difference between "sticking up for a guy who's being bullied" and "sticking up for yourself."
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Post by YiHammer on Jan 22, 2013 10:56:51 GMT -5
And I completely agree that if there was a name in there with him, no way does he try that. Calihan would've f***ing killed him. You are basing this on what? Sami doesn't have any shoot fighting training and there's no indication of him being able to fight
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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Jan 22, 2013 11:24:39 GMT -5
And I completely agree that if there was a name in there with him, no way does he try that. Calihan would've f***ing killed him. You are basing this on what? Sami doesn't have any shoot fighting training and there's no indication of him being able to fight Size and stature. The guy Kozina roughed up said he basically took it because of Kozina being the veteran. That's why he finished the match. Someone like Sami Callihan would've just stiffed him right back and he already hits hard as it is. My initial point was not so much Sami specifically, but any name indy guy. What kind of lesson would he want and try to teach Sami, Colt, Michael Elgin, etc? I think with a name he wouldn't try it, but if he did he would've gotten it right back and probably worse.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 22, 2013 11:31:39 GMT -5
And I completely agree that if there was a name in there with him, no way does he try that. Calihan would've f***ing killed him. You are basing this on what? Sami doesn't have any shoot fighting training and there's no indication of him being able to fight Sami has some training. He took some type of martial arts when he lost all that weight. Guys like Sammie and Drake would probably stick up for him in the back knowing the kind of people they are. Both were kind of brought up that, while you take your lumps, you protect the young guys.
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Post by YiHammer on Jan 22, 2013 12:03:17 GMT -5
You are basing this on what? Sami doesn't have any shoot fighting training and there's no indication of him being able to fight Size and stature. The guy Kozina roughed up said he basically took it because of Kozina being the veteran. That's why he finished the match. Someone like Sami Callihan would've just stiffed him right back and he already hits hard as it is. My initial point was not so much Sami specifically, but any name indy guy. What kind of lesson would he want and try to teach Sami, Colt, Michael Elgin, etc? I think with a name he wouldn't try it, but if he did he would've gotten it right back and probably worse. Sami is legit 5 7 and not a very muscular guy, I don't see why you are so sure he'd beat Kozina in a fight. Sami also isn't as stiff as people think, that is the illusion of wrestling
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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Jan 22, 2013 12:16:53 GMT -5
I'm not saying Sami would beat Kozina in a fight. Something breaking down in the ring like that probably wouldn't become a full blown "fight." Look at the Steelhorsing nonsense. He got up, smacked the guy in the mouth, and that was it. I'm saying Sami or ANY "big" indy name would probably have done the same to end that situation immediately. It just takes one to get your point across.
And Sami can lay it in if he wanted to. I've been a guardrail's width away from him landing kicks, punches, and forearms. There's no illusion there.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Jan 22, 2013 12:41:08 GMT -5
There is no other industry I can think of that is like pro-wrestling, it has a life and rules of it's own. It seems to me that Kozina took exception to the kid said and decided to stiff him, using the "protecting the business" as an excuse. I can't say I agree or disagree because I am not in either man's shoes, but wrestling will always be like this- old guys hazing and bullying new guys.
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Post by greatmuta on Jan 22, 2013 12:42:09 GMT -5
Kozina, Davey and crew are all goofs. I seriously hope all three of them go away.
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Post by YiHammer on Jan 22, 2013 13:29:06 GMT -5
I'm not saying Sami would beat Kozina in a fight. Something breaking down in the ring like that probably wouldn't become a full blown "fight." Look at the Steelhorsing nonsense. He got up, smacked the guy in the mouth, and that was it. I'm saying Sami or ANY "big" indy name would probably have done the same to end that situation immediately. It just takes one to get your point across. And Sami can lay it in if he wanted to. I've been a guardrail's width away from him landing kicks, punches, and forearms. There's no illusion there. There are plenty of wrestlers that people think are stiff but just know how to make things look good. Conversely there are a couple of guys that aren't big or look stiff that stiff the shit out of people. Sami and Davey are two of those guys I've heard people say just give the illusion of being stiff Low Ki is actually stiff
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 22, 2013 14:12:43 GMT -5
With the Kozina/ Kidd incident, there were as many who thought Kozina was an asshole as many who thought he was in right. Some of the more well known names took a neutral stance.
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Post by mjolnir on Jan 22, 2013 14:15:39 GMT -5
Yeah, at the time of the incident, alot of wrestlers went on Facebook and Twitter and blasted him for doing it. Pearce and Corino being two of the more notable ones that championed their disapproval. I'm pretty sure Pearce even got into a few arguments on Twitter over the incident and had some falling outs with some other wrestlers. Due to them approving of what happened and him, understandably, being disgusted by that reaction.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 22, 2013 18:09:15 GMT -5
I can't say I agree or disagree because I am not in either man's shoes, but wrestling will always be like this- old guys hazing and bullying new guys. That's pretty sickening if it's true. I mean, we're becoming aware of how much damage bullying can do in recent years. The idea that it might be accepted or even encouraged in pro wrestling--not just in WWE with the bullshit Wrestlers' Court we've heard stories of, but throughout the industry--is really disturbing. If I'm gonna stay a pro wrestling fan, I've gotta be able to believe that the majority of the people in the business are not bullies, because I got my fill of bullies back when I was a kid, and I f***ing despise people like that.
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Corporate H
Grimlock
He Buries Them Alive
Posts: 13,829
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Post by Corporate H on Jan 22, 2013 18:19:46 GMT -5
I'm not in the business, BUT, I do think he was both in the right and in the wrong. He was right to try and teach the kid a lesson, he was wrong to announce he was doing so and thus breaking kayfabe. As an end result, he was just as guilty of f***ery as Kidd was..
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Rave
El Dandy
Perpetually Bored
Posts: 8,373
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Post by Rave on Jan 22, 2013 18:24:08 GMT -5
Didn't O'Reilly do the smart thing and distance himself from Davey and Kozina after everything went down? I remember him apologizing and not being in on that "Wrestling's Most Wanted" bullshit.
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Post by mjolnir on Jan 22, 2013 18:30:40 GMT -5
Didn't O'Reilly do the smart thing and distance himself from Davey and Kozina after everything went down? I remember him apologizing and not being in on that "Wrestling's Most Wanted" bulls***. Yeah, after some initial gloating, when shit started hitting the fan, Kyle apologized and tried to distance himself as fast as he could. Albeit he apologized in the most half assed, back handed, insincere way possible. That basically could be summed up as "I'm apologizing...but not really, I just don't want to get caught in the shit Davey and Tony are about to be caught in. Please keep booking me, everybody?" As during the apology, he stood by the fact that Tony, and all of them, were in the right for the various acts of what they did in that time period.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 22, 2013 19:13:34 GMT -5
I can't say I agree or disagree because I am not in either man's shoes, but wrestling will always be like this- old guys hazing and bullying new guys. That's pretty sickening if it's true. I mean, we're becoming aware of how much damage bullying can do in recent years. The idea that it might be accepted or even encouraged in pro wrestling--not just in WWE with the bulls*** Wrestlers' Court we've heard stories of, but throughout the industry--is really disturbing. If I'm gonna stay a pro wrestling fan, I've gotta be able to believe that the majority of the people in the business are not bullies, because I got my fill of bullies back when I was a kid, and I f***ing despise people like that. From what I've heard, in a lot of cases if a kid is picked on most tell him just to hit hard back a time or 2 and the bullying will stop
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