The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,650
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 27, 2013 23:34:33 GMT -5
But not every attempt to make a new star will be successful either. It's no guaranteed that just because a youngster gets a big mania push he will be the next star. BUT YOU HAVE TO TRY! I'm not saying that everybody WWE pushes hard is gonna be a mega star. That's just unrealistic. My point is that they aren't even trying anymore. You don't know what somebody can do with the ball if you never give it to them. I think they've built up a lot of new guys lately, they just haven't let one become the top guy. They almost did/are getting there with Ryback though.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 23:35:14 GMT -5
Well, the hotter he gets, the more merchandise he sells. If people aren't buying Ryback shirts, then he isn't a new star. The point is to get someone who can appeal to the part of the audience that despise Cena and then, eventually, have that guy transition into his role. You can't guarantee he'll move the merchandise simply because he's getting pushed. And if someone is outshining the guy who does move merch, it still doesn't guarantee much. If anything, it's very possible that people lose interest in the guy who is a hot seller and then those people just don't buy anything at all. Nothing is guaranteed, sadly.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 27, 2013 23:36:32 GMT -5
BUT YOU HAVE TO TRY! I'm not saying that everybody WWE pushes hard is gonna be a mega star. That's just unrealistic. My point is that they aren't even trying anymore. You don't know what somebody can do with the ball if you never give it to them. I think they've built up a lot of new guys lately, they just haven't let one become the top guy. They almost did/are getting there with Ryback though. That's what I mean. Don't throw a World Title on a guy while still having the universe revolve around Cena and call it a day. Give that guy a chance to be THE MAN of the company. If it doesn't work, oh well but at least you tried.
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 27, 2013 23:37:31 GMT -5
They gotta be ready, first, and a face second. Other than Ryback maybe, who is that 2005 Cena/Batista walking around WWE? Sorry guys, your trendy heels like Ziggler aren't ending Mania as champ. WHO'S FAULT IS THAT?! There's a reason why no new guys are ready. BECAUSE WWE HASN'T BEEN GETTING THEM READY!!!!! They're content with coasting on Cena and any part-timer with name value. I don't understand this argument. WWE has been getting guys ready. Look at the current roster and tell me who isn't getting a shot that deserves one. I would rather them use part-timers than end up with another Miz vs. Cena.
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Post by kamero00 on Jan 27, 2013 23:38:07 GMT -5
Instead of making new stars, we can Rock/Cena for the 500th time at WM 60
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 23:38:44 GMT -5
I think they've built up a lot of new guys lately, they just haven't let one become the top guy. They almost did/are getting there with Ryback though. Now here's where I play devil's advocate. They're actually FAILING with Ryback. Sure, he's a monster who can destroy people with a menacing glare, but let's look at every big match opportunity he's had since HIAC. He's come up short every single time. The crowd is hot for him, but if he can never overcome the odds (ha ha), then why should I be invested longterm with Ryback? I'm not saying you have to give him the belt overnight or even give him a Rumble victory. But holy hell...throw the guy a goddamn bone...he's hungry for Christ's sake!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 23:40:08 GMT -5
What I found really unsettling tonight wasn't the Rock winning the title, or even Cena winning the Rumble......it was the Rumble match itself and how it showed once again how apathetic and un-over the current roster is with the audience.
Jericho returned and got a massive pop, and not only that he got a sustained reaction throughout the entire match. When he was eliminated the crowd seemed to be genuinely upset. Not even Sheamus or Orton, two of the biggest stars on the current roster, got that. Hell, I don't think even Ryback got that reaction. 42 year old Chris Jericho showed everyone up.
Bo Dallas eliminated the Intercontinental Champion from the Rumble in his first main roster match. Now in any other company they would treat this like a big deal, but because of the way it was set-up with multiple people in the ring and nobody thinking Wade was going to win the Rumble, nobody cared when Bo eliminated him. The match simply moved on and nobody mentioned it again.
Ziggler lasted nearly the entire Rumble, which again should be a big deal, but outside of mentioning it on Raw tomorrow he'll probably he jobbing inside the Chamber and then being somewhere in the midcard come Wrestlemania time. You had Mysterio and Sin Cara return to apathy, everyone in the tag and US matches being used again because they didn't have any other over stars on the roster, and then of course the Godfather getting a bigger reaction than at-least 75% of the entrants.
You can see why the WWE feels the need to put Cena and Rock on top, because they are doing a terrible job of building legit new stars. Not new stars like your Chris Jericho's or Kane's who jump in and out of the main event, but ACTUAL stars like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena etc. Guys who can carry the company into the future. I don't see anyone on the current roster who can be a poster child. The closest they've come is Sheamus and Ryback, one has already gotten stale and the other has lost four PPV's in a row. You choose which is which.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 23:41:23 GMT -5
I would rather them use part-timers than end up with another Miz vs. Cena. That's my outlook as well. If this main event was announced 4 years ago, I may have been pissed. But after Wrestlemania 27, I'd rather they give us something that will at least be less than diarrhea like we got that year. Holy hell, was that a horrible main event.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 27, 2013 23:42:00 GMT -5
Well, the hotter he gets, the more merchandise he sells. If people aren't buying Ryback shirts, then he isn't a new star. The point is to get someone who can appeal to the part of the audience that despise Cena and then, eventually, have that guy transition into his role. You can't guarantee he'll move the merchandise simply because he's getting pushed. And if someone is outshining the guy who does move merch, it still doesn't guarantee much. If anything, it's very possible that people lose interest in the guy who is a hot seller and then those people just don't buy anything at all. Nothing is guaranteed, sadly. When I say hot, I don't just mean that WWE is pushing him to the top. Obviously, WWE pushing someone doesn't mean that the crowd will accept it. I mean, he gets really popular with the crowd. Over with the live crowd, moves merch, all that good stuff. I'm not trying to say you should completly disregard the guys that move merch or anything like that. Probably my fault for not being more clear.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 23:44:12 GMT -5
Yes, because I was talking about the Rock. Psst, I wasn't talking about the Rock. Psst, I was talking about Cena. Let me guess. They're really going to riot if Cena wins this time, right? No, but maybe they'll go WCW fans circa NWO invasion 1996 on Cena and pelt the ring with garbage. It wouldn't surprise me. And I say this as someone who thinks Cena is a good wrestler, a good talker (when he's not doing the kindegarten-level comedy material), and seemingly a jam-up guy in real-life if what he does for charities like Make-a-Wish are factored: His gimmick, whatever it really is, is stale, tired, repetitive. Cena's dominance of the company for 7+ years is just as stale, tired, and repetitive. Cena's dominance of the weekly TV program, even when he is NOT the champion, is also just as stale, tired, and repetitive. Yet nevertheless, if Cena/Rock II happens WWE will likely again try to position Cena sympathetically as the guy fans should root for because he's always been The Man of the company. Many fans still haven't taken to Cena despite the fact that he's The Man of WWE for SEVEN YEARS. It's either commendable or completely insane on WWE's part that in spite of a large contingent of fans, often in many cases being past 50% +1, continue to boo the top babyface of the company year after year after year, without fundamentally addressing any of the issues regarding his gimmick, his monopoly of the main-event scene, or his television saturation. Yeah, Cena still moves merch, and he keeps the business numbers relatively stable for this era, granted. But fans who have left during the John Cena era, it's kind of hard for WWE to get their dollar when they aren't watching. This isn't even about 'oh, the sky is falling!' But that doesn't mean WWE isn't buried underneath an insurmountable pile of acorns, figuratively speaking. If WWE thinks that someone in the audience in NY/NJ will turn to his or her neighbour to say, "you know, because John Cena beat the Rock for the WWE title, because of his hustle, loyalty, and respect, I have a new found respect for him, and I will support him 100% in all his future feuds, and buy all the John Cena merchandise I can"... then they are sorely mistaken. And if they think that they can bilk Cena haters for their money, they will also be sorely mistaken because at some point the Cena haters will just leave. Period. And not waste their money on a product that makes no attempt to extend an olive branch to them as viewers. And if Cena one day gets injured very badly, then all the golden goose eggs that have been put in one basket will break, and then WWE will wonder why fans won't take to guys they plug into the main-event to stop-gap the star power loss when WWE has been conditioning fans for years now not to get too invested in midcard guys because at the end of the day they're just scrubs. But I'm not going to convince you as to why I really don't want to waste $60 on a show that won't be entertaining, just like you're not going to convince me as to why you might want to spend $60 on a show that you will find entertaining. But to pretend that John Cena can be even more of a star by beating the Rock for the WWE title when he's effectively everything there is to do in WWE except beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, especially when someone like a Ryback or a Ziggler or a Barrett could use that interaction with the Rock to transcend to the next level more than Cena ever could (and the fact that fans perceive these guys as scrubs certainly isn't MY fault, it's WWE's for booking them that way repeatedly year after year)... Well, that's just a bunch of tosh, in my opinion.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 23:47:48 GMT -5
When I say hot, I don't just mean that WWE is pushing him to the top. Obviously, WWE pushing someone doesn't mean that the crowd will accept it. I mean, he gets really popular with the crowd. Over with the live crowd, moves merch, all that good stuff. I'm not trying to say you should completly disregard the guys that move merch or anything like that. Probably my fault for not being more clear. In that case, isn't that what they're already doing?
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Post by Hanz Moleman on Jan 27, 2013 23:50:50 GMT -5
I'm convinced you can't build new stars like you used to in the current era, wrestling isn't as over like rover anymore and a fair share of the fan base is too fickle. Cena and Rock will outsell Punk and anyone else four times over.
It's very much optimistic thinking but Rock being champion could very well bring former fans back in for a second long enough for them to decide they want to stick around. I'll echo the same sentiment that has been said, no one with the exception of Ryback is ready for the wrestlemania push. The WWE has cornered themselves with horrible booking strategies and in this economy can't afford to take a risk.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 23:51:15 GMT -5
Let me guess. They're really going to riot if Cena wins this time, right? No, but maybe they'll go WCW fans circa NWO invasion 1996 on Cena and pelt the ring with garbage. It wouldn't surprise me. And I say this as someone who thinks Cena is a good wrestler, a good talker (when he's not doing the kindegarten-level comedy material), and seemingly a jam-up guy in real-life if what he does for charities like Make-a-Wish are factored: His gimmick, whatever it really is, is stale, tired, repetitive. Cena's dominance of the company for 7+ years is just as stale, tired, and repetitive. Cena's dominance of the weekly TV program, even when he is NOT the champion, is also just as stale, tired, and repetitive. Yet nevertheless, if Cena/Rock II happens WWE will likely again try to position Cena sympathetically as the guy fans should root for because he's always been The Man of the company. Many fans still haven't taken to Cena despite the fact that he's The Man of WWE for SEVEN YEARS. It's either commendable or completely insane on WWE's part that in spite of a large contingent of fans, often in many cases being past 50% +1, continue to boo the top babyface of the company year after year after year, without fundamentally addressing any of the issues regarding his gimmick, his monopoly of the main-event scene, or his television saturation. Yeah, Cena still moves merch, and he keeps the business numbers relatively stable for this era, granted. But fans who have left during the John Cena era, it's kind of hard for WWE to get their dollar when they aren't watching. This isn't even about 'oh, the sky is falling!' But that doesn't mean WWE isn't buried underneath an insurmountable pile of acorns, figuratively speaking. If WWE thinks that someone in the audience in NY/NJ will turn to his or her neighbour to say, "you know, because John Cena beat the Rock for the WWE title, because of his hustle, loyalty, and respect, I have a new found respect for him, and I will support him 100% in all his future feuds, and buy all the John Cena merchandise I can"... then they are sorely mistaken. And if they think that they can bilk Cena haters for their money, they will also be sorely mistaken because at some point the Cena haters will just leave. Period. And not waste their money on a product that makes no attempt to extend an olive branch to them as viewers. And if Cena one day gets injured very badly, then all the golden goose eggs that have been put in one basket will break, and then WWE will wonder why fans won't take to guys they plug into the main-event to stop-gap the star power loss when WWE has been conditioning fans for years now not to get too invested in midcard guys because at the end of the day they're just scrubs. But I'm not going to convince you as to why I really don't want to waste $60 on a show that won't be entertaining, just like you're not going to convince me as to why you might want to spend $60 on a show that you will find entertaining. But to pretend that John Cena can be even more of a star by beating the Rock for the WWE title when he's effectively everything there is to do in WWE except beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, especially when someone like a Ryback or a Ziggler or a Barrett could use that interaction with the Rock to transcend to the next level more than Cena ever could (and the fact that fans perceive these guys as scrubs certainly isn't MY fault, it's WWE's for booking them that way repeatedly year after year)... Well, that's just a bunch of tosh, in my opinion. Cena will get booed. People will rage. Then, like every year, by Extreme Rules or Over the Limit or whatever, Cena will go back to his usual reactions, and be more over than just about anyone else, then he'll lose the belt, maybe by screwjob, fail to win the title back due to someone interfering, leading to him getting 'sidetracked' by some wacky feud.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 27, 2013 23:52:59 GMT -5
WHO'S FAULT IS THAT?! There's a reason why no new guys are ready. BECAUSE WWE HASN'T BEEN GETTING THEM READY!!!!! They're content with coasting on Cena and any part-timer with name value. I don't understand this argument. WWE has been getting guys ready. Look at the current roster and tell me who isn't getting a shot that deserves one. I would rather them use part-timers than end up with another Miz vs. Cena. Yes, within the last year or so, WWE has gotten better at grooming guys into becoming bonafide main eventers. They're still not great at it but they've gotten better. I do not disagree. The point I'm trying to make is, how long has Ziggler been knocking on the glass ceiling? How about Cody Rhodes, remember when people were labeling him as a future world champion? How about that Wade Barrett fella? Or Kofi Kingston when he got hot during his feud with Orton? It's all good to prepare someone for a main event spot but you have actually go through with it. Don't get cold feet. It's not like the guys I've mentioned are Superstars jobbers. But, there is a clear attitude demonstrated on the shows. That the Zigglers of the world are CLEARLY a notch below guys like Cena and Rock. Obviously, that's true right now outside of kayfabe but you don't have to smash your audience over the head with the fact on the shows. Give them a chance to stand toe to toe with them. And no, I don't consider Ziggler throwing everything at Cena, including the kitchen sink, only to still get beat to be standing toe to toe with him.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Jan 27, 2013 23:55:32 GMT -5
Anyone who has been to live shows would know that just because people boo Cena doesn't mean that a majority of them or even a large percentage of them hate him or even don't like him.
It's like chanting "what" has become -- it's the thing to do, or a thing to do. I know: I've booed Cena along with the people I was at the show and a lot of people around us, and it's obvious it's not something the booers (or at least the vast majority of them that I have seen around me) take as seriously as some in the IWC take it. I like Cena, the others do, too, but we boo because either we like who he is wrestling against or because, well, just because.
I have yet to go to a live show in recent years where Cena signs and T-shirts don't outnumber all of the rest put together. I've been to Smackdown house shows where they show a Cena promo or just his image on the big screen and heard people pop like he was there.
I get some don't like him, but I think most of those people don't go to the shows or order the PPVs anyway. But of those who do financially support the product, more like Cena than don't and it's by a large margin in my observation.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 27, 2013 23:55:48 GMT -5
When I say hot, I don't just mean that WWE is pushing him to the top. Obviously, WWE pushing someone doesn't mean that the crowd will accept it. I mean, he gets really popular with the crowd. Over with the live crowd, moves merch, all that good stuff. I'm not trying to say you should completly disregard the guys that move merch or anything like that. Probably my fault for not being more clear. In that case, isn't that what they're already doing? Yeah. I was bringing up the fact that the reason why nobody is "ready" now is because they're only NOW realizing that they should be a little more proactive when it comes to helping guys become main eventers. The guys that are moving merch now aren't going move it forever.
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Post by The Portable Stove on Jan 27, 2013 23:57:50 GMT -5
I think they've built up a lot of new guys lately, they just haven't let one become the top guy. They almost did/are getting there with Ryback though. That's what I mean. Don't throw a World Title on a guy while still having the universe revolve around Cena and call it a day. Give that guy a chance to be THE MAN of the company. If it doesn't work, oh well but at least you tried. You know, I've noticed that. In the past, becoming a breakthrough main eventer meant that you won the title at an important time. That's why it's hard to say that Sheamus and Del Rio have broken through, because they were both two-time WWE Champions before winning the WHC. I can't think of anyone who's held the WHC or the WWE Championship since 2005 that could even feasibly take the spot away from Cena and have it be a huge deal.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 28, 2013 0:01:40 GMT -5
Not taking a risk is itself taking a risk. Stagnation doesn't bring in new viewers or make viewers like myself shell out money for PPVs or merchandise.
Not booking someone to be the guy to replace Cena, or to run the same pattern of TV and PPV programming with Cena as the year before, these are things that slowly drive fans away.
I like Ryback a lot more now than I did last fall, but I'm still not crazy about him. Yet if he won the Rumble instead of Cena, it'd be something a bit fresh, it would provide some different match-ups, it would make the TV show a bit more unpredictable. I'm not saying Ryback would lead to the next boom period, and if he failed to get people into the product, that's more a problem of WWE's roster depth, its lack of credible main-event heels, and how much it relies on rematches and gimmick matches to sell PPV shows and advertising minutes.
And as a fan I'm left wanting someone who I can root for and be entertained by on TV when they're jobbed out repeatedly to make sure that the top guys never stop looking like they're top guys.
WWE's reaction to all of this, all of the response to Cena is basically, yes, a shrug. That's McMahon's prerogative. Which is also my reaction when I decide not to buy Wrestlemania this year. His loss, not mine.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 28, 2013 0:04:20 GMT -5
In that case, isn't that what they're already doing? Yeah. I was bringing up the fact that the reason why nobody is "ready" now is because they're only NOW realizing that they should be a little more proactive when it comes to helping guys become main eventers. The guys that are moving merch now aren't going move it forever. Well again, they had a year to build up new stars for Wrestlemania if they wanted to. But in the long haul, they've been wanting Cena/Rock 2 since WM28 went off the air. And that's about it. Collectively, Wrestlemania is no longer about being the "Super Bowl" of wrestling. Hell, I'm more annoyed by the fact that this isn't going to stop after this year. And it's not even The Rock who is spoiling it. You still have Triple H, Undertaker, Lesnar with his new deal, etc etc. And it won't end. Even by the point that Cena is a broken man, they're going to wheel him out there as a "spectacle". I mean even Jericho showing up tonight proved that, I like him but I'm tired of the short runs that lead to nowhere. This is THE reason why Wrestlemania hasn't felt special in many years. And it's the reason why I don't even bother getting upset by it anymore. At least Shawn Michaels and Batista had the good sense to leave while they still "had it". Cena, Undertaker, Triple H...they're going to be be going at it until they're just a bucket of goo. I don't think even The Rock is in it for the long haul the way those others are. So when we get upset about what is happening right now. We got to stand back and ask ourselves...."what else is new?".
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 28, 2013 0:08:18 GMT -5
Yeah. I was bringing up the fact that the reason why nobody is "ready" now is because they're only NOW realizing that they should be a little more proactive when it comes to helping guys become main eventers. The guys that are moving merch now aren't going move it forever. Well again, they had a year to build up new stars for Wrestlemania if they wanted to. But in the long haul, they've been wanting Cena/Rock 2 since WM28 went off the air. And that's about it. Collectively, Wrestlemania is no longer about being the "Super Bowl" of wrestling. Hell, I'm more annoyed by the fact that this isn't going to stop after this year. And it's not even The Rock who is spoiling it. You still have Triple H, Undertaker, Lesnar with his new deal, etc etc. And it won't end. Even by the point that Cena is a broken man, they're going to wheel him out there as a "spectacle". I mean even Jericho showing up tonight proved that, I like him but I'm tired of the short runs that lead to nowhere. This is THE reason why Wrestlemania hasn't felt special in many years. And it's the reason why I don't even bother getting upset by it anymore. At least Shawn Michaels and Batista had the good sense to leave while they still "had it". Cena, Undertaker, Triple H...they're going to be be going at it until they're just a bucket of goo. I don't think even The Rock is in it for the long haul the way those others are. So when we get upset about what is happening right now. We got to stand back and ask ourselves...."what else is new?". Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with you that is nothing new. Just a bit upset that it's still happening.
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