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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 22:21:17 GMT -5
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 22:23:59 GMT -5
Hart was a star WAY before WMX
Shawn Michaels was in the title main event the year before
Austin was a star before he won the belt
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Jan 27, 2013 22:26:58 GMT -5
Hart was a star WAY before WMX Shawn Michaels was in the title main event the year before Austin was a star before he won the belt Indeed Michaels got a big showcase at Wrestlemania the year before and Austin was made a star the previous year at... Wrestlemania. Kind of proves his point.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 22:29:35 GMT -5
They gotta be ready, first, and a face second. Other than Ryback maybe, who is that 2005 Cena/Batista walking around WWE?
Sorry guys, your trendy heels like Ziggler aren't ending Mania as champ.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 22:29:46 GMT -5
Indeed Michaels got a big showcase at Wrestlemania the year before and Austin was made a star the previous year at... Wrestlemania. Kind of proves his point. Yet, the pictures he provided were of repeat offenders. Both Michaels and Austin got there by winning their second Rumble. You could argue the same about Cena. The point is, more times than not...it ISN'T about building new stars. I wish it was, and I'm less than thrilled about Cena/Rock II, but I'm not going to act like this is the "status quo" because Wrestlemania has almost always been the status quo.
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paywindah
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Post by paywindah on Jan 27, 2013 22:31:35 GMT -5
They gotta be ready, first, and a face second. Other than Ryback maybe, who is that 2005 Cena/Batista walking around WWE? Sorry guys, your trendy heels like Ziggler aren't ending Mania as champ. Nobody said he had to end Mania as champ. But when you bury him in the 5th or 6th most important match on the card which gets virtually no buildup or promotion, don't count on people to buy a PPV where he main events a month or two later when you condition the audience to believe that he doesn't matter. It's not a difficult concept. Really, it's not. It's all about positioning.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 22:32:55 GMT -5
They're symbolic victories. Symbolic moments.
Bret Hart finally took on the role of the new guard after Hogan was gone by beating the man who took the title from him at the Wrestlemania previously.
Shawn Michaels was a heel in a title match that was second-fiddle to Bam Bam Bigelow at Wrestlemania XI. He was talked up as pursuing 'the boyhood dream' with his Rumble win and Wrestlemania win. Michaels arrived as a full-time main-event talent the same way Bret Hart did before him.
Steve Austin worked a title match against the Undertaker in May 1997 that I don't hear get hailed as a classic. His match at Wrestlemania 13 put a lot of people on notice that Austin was a guy to watch. But not until his victory at Wrestlemania 14 did the 'Austin era' really begin.
It's the difference between being a 'star' the likes of Orlando Bloom in films that don't involve elves or pirates, and being a star like Christian Bale who headlines a multi-million dollar film franchise.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 22:36:45 GMT -5
They gotta be ready, first, and a face second. Other than Ryback maybe, who is that 2005 Cena/Batista walking around WWE? Sorry guys, your trendy heels like Ziggler aren't ending Mania as champ. Nobody said he had to end Mania as champ. But when you bury him in the 5th or 6th most important match on the card which gets virtually no buildup or promotion, don't count on people to buy a PPV where he main events a month or two later when you condition the audience to believe that he doesn't matter. It's not a difficult concept. Really, it's not. It's all about positioning. And thats build. If Ziggler in a match doesn't feel big, then its because Ziggler ISN'T big yet. Just throwing him a "Mania main event" won't change that. Thats the difference. Batista/HHH was the top storyline in WWE even with Taker and HBK around. Thus, he main evented. Ziggler isn't quite there yet, but there's still time. Lets not forget, Punk went from a mid level heel to being able to wrestle the Rock in the main event of a PPV. It didn't have to happen at Wrestlemania, because the timing wasn't there.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 22:40:12 GMT -5
How do we know that Cena isn't going to have a symbolic moment? We don't. Wrestlemania hasn't happened yet.
Again, I'm not Mr. Optimism, but this "sky is falling" stuff is the same thing we see every year. Over the course of Wrestlemania history, who has the night been built around? Let's be perfectly honest here;
2 Hogan 3 Hogan 4 Savage 5 Hogan 6 Warrior 7 Hogan 8 Hogan 9 Hogan (last second) 10 Hart 11 LT 12 Michaels 13 Undertaker 14 Austin 15 Austin 16 Triple H 17 Austin 18 Triple H 19 Lesnar 20 Benoit 21 Batista 22 Cena 23 Cena 24 Undertaker 25 Triple H 26 Michaels 27 Rock 28 Rock
People who has their "first" Wrestlemania moment was a whopping 12 out of 28. And that's not even including guys who had already won the title. If that was the case, you'd only have actually built 5 people for a title win moment.
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Jazzman
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Post by Jazzman on Jan 27, 2013 22:57:47 GMT -5
Seriously, I had this discussion with a buddy during the PPV about "passing the torch" moments at Mania. I counted maybe 4 (WM 6, 12, 14, 21) from one generation to the next one. In my mind, if Cena goes over Rock and takes the belt of him at WM, it's one of those moments.
It's the biggest star from the Attitude Era putting over the biggest star of this era and then Rocky can fade away. We may not like it and it might be stale to have Cena on top again, but that's what we're building toward and it makes perfect sense.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 22:59:20 GMT -5
A Mania moment at the end is the exclamation point, not the starting point, to making someone a star.
Who on the roster is teetering like that? Honestly?
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 23:05:43 GMT -5
Well, if Cena/Rock II happens and Cena beats the Rock for the WWE title, it certainly will be a symbolic moment.
I just don't think it'll be the moment WWE intended, a la Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania 18. It will be more like Lesnar/Goldberg at Wrestlemania 20.
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froggyfrog
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Post by froggyfrog on Jan 27, 2013 23:09:31 GMT -5
Well, if Cena/Rock II happens and Cena beats the Rock for the WWE title, it certainly will be a symbolic moment. Passing the torch to the guy holding the torch
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 23:11:33 GMT -5
Well, if Cena/Rock II happens and Cena beats the Rock for the WWE title, it certainly will be a symbolic moment. I just don't think it'll be the moment WWE intended, a la Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania 18. It will be more like Lesnar/Goldberg at Wrestlemania 20. Someone must have a fundamental lack of knowledge about Lesnar/Goldberg to even compare it to a potential Rock/Cena match.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 27, 2013 23:13:48 GMT -5
I just don't think it'll be the moment WWE intended, a la Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania 18. It will be more like Lesnar/Goldberg at Wrestlemania 20. How? Lesnar and Goldberg couldn't care less about putting on a good match during their last match. Rock and certainly Cena have busted their ass before to put on good matches. I doubt it would be an amazing match, but neither guy are going to phone it in. Oh, and Cena will definitely be showing up on Raw, unlike Brock or Bill.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 23:14:04 GMT -5
Well, if Cena/Rock II happens and Cena beats the Rock for the WWE title, it certainly will be a symbolic moment. I just don't think it'll be the moment WWE intended, a la Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania 18. It will be more like Lesnar/Goldberg at Wrestlemania 20. Someone must have a fundamental lack of knowledge about Lesnar/Goldberg to even compare it to a potential Rock/Cena match. Someone must not understand that the comparison being made was about the likely fan reaction that will result if Cena wins the match, let alone the fact that both Wrestlemania involve Northeast fans, being akin to how poorly Lesnar/Goldberg was received by fans who were at the Garden.
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Lancers
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Post by Lancers on Jan 27, 2013 23:14:44 GMT -5
Well, if Cena/Rock II happens and Cena beats the Rock for the WWE title, it certainly will be a symbolic moment. Passing the torch to the guy holding the torch HEY! He's gonna get two torches to carry.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 27, 2013 23:16:00 GMT -5
Someone must have a fundamental lack of knowledge about Lesnar/Goldberg to even compare it to a potential Rock/Cena match. Someone must not understand that the comparison being made was about the likely fan reaction that will result if Cena wins the match, let alone the fact that both Wrestlemania involve Northeast fans, being akin to how poorly Lesnar/Goldberg was received by fans who were at the Garden. 1. Lesnar/Goldberg fiasco was about WAY more than just he reaction. 2. LOL Rock getting a bad reaction. Lets be real.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 27, 2013 23:17:05 GMT -5
Yes, because I was talking about the Rock.
Psst, I wasn't talking about the Rock.
Psst, I was talking about Cena.
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Post by deltarich on Jan 27, 2013 23:17:50 GMT -5
The MITB matches are the ones that build new stars now IMO. You elevate a new guy who then will eventually become champ. We are still waiting for Ziggler's reign, but he's already clearly on the rise and has been for months now
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