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Post by Some Guy on May 12, 2013 21:36:51 GMT -5
Michael B. Jordan being cast as Human Torch would be awesome, especially after they completely butchered the casting of three people in the original attempts at them. I stopped paying attention after that because I got excited.
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Post by wildojinx on May 12, 2013 21:51:50 GMT -5
Interesting side note: Destro on the GI Joe cartoon was played by a black man (Arthur Burghardt) yet in the comics, live action movie, renegades cartoon, and action figure, destro is white. I dont know what this all means, i just found it interesting.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 12, 2013 21:54:17 GMT -5
The Last Airbender movie even has white eskimos
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on May 12, 2013 21:54:54 GMT -5
Did any of these people object to the Hispanic Bane being played by the British Tom Hardy? If not, I think you've got your answer. And Jubilee is definitely a character I could see being changed with few to no complaints. Her defining traits are being a teenager and having a creepy infatuation with Wolverine. Storm is different, Black Panther and Luke Cage would be different. Cyborg you could do. As an Asian, I'd have a big problem with that. There's very little Asian representation in superhero comics to begin with and for a pretty well known Asian character to be defined as simply "teenager" is annoying. Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Attachment of the reader/audience to the character in terms of pushing a connection or shared identity to the character is not founded in evidence. Once more, she is a character who happens to be Asian (Psylock is just a headache in these terms). Even in the more ethnically diverse Generation X, her cultural identity was 90's female teen pastiche more then anything else/ And I will be honest, as a Marvel fan they have a staggering lack of Asian representation in their roll call of heroes or even villains.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 12, 2013 22:12:21 GMT -5
As an Asian, I'd have a big problem with that. There's very little Asian representation in superhero comics to begin with and for a pretty well known Asian character to be defined as simply "teenager" is annoying. Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Attachment of the reader/audience to the character in terms of pushing a connection or shared identity to the character is not founded in evidence. Once more, she is a character who happens to be Asian (Psylock is just a headache in these terms). Even in the more ethnically diverse Generation X, her cultural identity was 90's female teen pastiche more then anything else/ And I will be honest, as a Marvel fan they have a staggering lack of Asian representation in their roll call of heroes or even villains. See, this is why when Cable got god-like powers, he turned everybody in the world Salmon Pink. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on May 12, 2013 22:35:31 GMT -5
As an Asian, I'd have a big problem with that. There's very little Asian representation in superhero comics to begin with and for a pretty well known Asian character to be defined as simply "teenager" is annoying. Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Attachment of the reader/audience to the character in terms of pushing a connection or shared identity to the character is not founded in evidence. Once more, she is a character who happens to be Asian (Psylock is just a headache in these terms). Even in the more ethnically diverse Generation X, her cultural identity was 90's female teen pastiche more then anything else/ And I will be honest, as a Marvel fan they have a staggering lack of Asian representation in their roll call of heroes or even villains. it makes me really glad that Shiro/Sunfire has a huge role in Uncanny Avengers right now and looks like he will be stepping it up and is already show to be a heavy hitter near Thor level after one danged issue.
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Post by Danimal on May 13, 2013 0:08:22 GMT -5
For me it depends. Duncan as Kingpin was fine. They wanted a big-name actor that's huge but can pull-off a fight scene. Choices were damn limited and Duncan fit the bill as good or better than anyone I can think of. Hardy as Bane was fine. The comic character is Latino but what he's been through is what defines him and his face is covered. Race is less important than being being big guy that can act well, a pumped-up Hardy fits that bill. Don't see the kid from Chronicle as Johnny Storm. He won't be any better at the role than any number of guys that acually look like the comic character. It isn't like he's a star either. Will Smith can play about anyone he wants, this guy not so much. It's changing the race of the character just for the sake of doing it.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2013 0:36:30 GMT -5
As an Asian, I'd have a big problem with that. There's very little Asian representation in superhero comics to begin with and for a pretty well known Asian character to be defined as simply "teenager" is annoying. Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Jubilation Lee. Chinese-American.
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Post by Goldenbane on May 13, 2013 0:38:29 GMT -5
Funny thing is...I'm annoyed that they're making the Human Torch black for really no reason at all...but if they do also cast a black actress to portray Invisible Woman, I'm fine with it. Not sure what that says about me.
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on May 13, 2013 0:40:47 GMT -5
Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Jubilation Lee. Chinese-American. Yep, not even that hard considering it was a bit of a plot point of X-men TAS for like 2 seconds.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2013 0:41:51 GMT -5
Jubilation Lee. Chinese-American. Yep, not even that hard considering it was a bit of a plot point of X-men TAS for like 2 seconds. She made a joke once in the comics that was like, "Even I don't know what my codename is supposed to mean".
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on May 13, 2013 2:56:14 GMT -5
I'll just quote a comment from someone there who explained why such decisions are counter-protective and genuinely insulting far better than I could have myself: Seriously, casting a Black actor as a White character is basically taking the White character and putting him in blackface. How is that inclusive? Spot on. It takes an established character and just changes his race. That doesn't make him a great african-american superhero, it just makes him someone riding on the coattails of a successful established character.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on May 13, 2013 4:11:47 GMT -5
Attachment of the reader/audience to the character in terms of pushing a connection or shared identity to the character is not founded in evidence. Once more, she is a character who happens to be Asian (Psylock is just a headache in these terms). Even in the more ethnically diverse Generation X, her cultural identity was 90's female teen pastiche more then anything else/ And I will be honest, as a Marvel fan they have a staggering lack of Asian representation in their roll call of heroes or even villains. There was a made-for-TV Generation X movie back in '96, and Jubilee was played by a caucasian girl. So I suppose even the television producers weren't aware of her ethnicity.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 6:25:20 GMT -5
See, I don't understand how it's great she isn't a stereotype and can easily "whitewashed" but it's wrong when Storm, Black Panther and Luke Cage who are based on stereotypes can't be. Storm and Black Panther as the jungle tribal princess and prince and Cage being a blaxploitation cash in. I'm someone who thinks characters should mostly be portrayed as how they are in the comics. When Ellen Page plays Kitty Pryde, the actress isn't Jewish but the character she plays is so the character remains Jewish on screen. Is she character defined as being Jewish? No, she's Wolverine's plucky sidekick turned SHIELD Agent. Could she replaced by a black actress? Could she be a real tiny minority of black jews? Is adhering to stereotypes the only way to keep your race then?
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Post by HMARK Center on May 13, 2013 6:43:43 GMT -5
I'll just quote a comment from someone there who explained why such decisions are counter-protective and genuinely insulting far better than I could have myself: Seriously, casting a Black actor as a White character is basically taking the White character and putting him in blackface. How is that inclusive? Spot on. It takes an established character and just changes his race. That doesn't make him a great african-american superhero, it just makes him someone riding on the coattails of a successful established character. Creating a "great black superhero" isn't the goal. It's playing a superhero who's race is immaterial to the way he's always been presented, and giving the role to whichever actor auditions best or best suits what they're looking for. The key concept is that eventually whether the actor is black, white, or whatever doesn't even need to enter into our consciousness, because it's very arbitrary. It's an established character who can literally be played by someone of any race, because nothing about Johnny Storm's race defines who he is. ...And it feels like people keep answering this, then that answer is ignored while people just keep saying the same things, instead of arguing or conceding or at least acknowledging that point.
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 7:32:32 GMT -5
See, I don't understand how it's great she isn't a stereotype and can easily "whitewashed" but it's wrong when Storm, Black Panther and Luke Cage who are based on stereotypes can't be. Storm and Black Panther as the jungle tribal princess and prince and Cage being a blaxploitation cash in. I'm someone who thinks characters should mostly be portrayed as how they are in the comics. When Ellen Page plays Kitty Pryde, the actress isn't Jewish but the character she plays is so the character remains Jewish on screen. Is she character defined as being Jewish? No, she's Wolverine's plucky sidekick turned SHIELD Agent. Could she replaced by a black actress? Could she be a real tiny minority of black jews? Is adhering to stereotypes the only way to keep your race then? I'm someone who believes you should always find the best actor who can play the character properly, and for some characters that means different factors have to be considered. No one is saying that it isn't great that Jubilee doesn't walk around with chopsticks in her hair eating fortune cookies and whatever else comics might have done to make her a stereotypical Chinese, in fact, that's how it should be in this day and age. In fact, Jubilee really is one of my favorite Marvel characters. But that's sort of the point, her race is not a core element of her character, she was a replacement for Shadowcat and her being a young teenager was always more of a defining factor. You can portray the entirety of Jubilee's core character in a different medium without the character being the same race, because it is incidental. You wouldn't be able to do it if her actor was the same age as Wolverine's actor. That's how Johnny Storm really is. Other characters don't. Thor, Captain America, Black Panther, the way they look was always a core part of the character. Thor has to look like a Nordic character to be Thor (I accept Heimdall because it's a bit part and Idris Elba is awesome), Captain America has to look like a 30's American Youth who is too small to join the army to be Captain America, Black Panther has to look like he is a northeastern African prince. Compare that to characters like Luke Cage or Black Panther, or hell, even Thor or Captain America, and it just doesn't work the same way (Heimdall I accepted because Idris Elba is amazing and the character was a bit part to begin with). Those character's aesthetics aren't incidental to their characters, they are a core part of it. It's been a while since I saw any of the X-men movies, but did they ever mention that Shadowcat was Jewish in that universe? Because I don't really remember it ever coming up.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 14:34:55 GMT -5
But I find a problem with that because the answer seems to be if she isn't a stereotype then being Chinese-American isn't important. As a Filipino-American, I don't fit into most Asian stereotypes like being interested in math, I don't have "tiger parents" but being Filipino-American is important to me and who I am. If someone were to come up to me and say you can be white or black or anything else, I'd feel a little insulted. Sure her race could be anything as the All-American teen but she was written as chinese because a chinese girl can be the All American teen. That's part of the character. To me, the message is still she's not "asian enough" or he's "black enough" and it stays. Can all characters stay the same? Can all characters change? I don't have an answer. I think Laurence Fishbourne is a good choice as Perry White and I don't care that Jimmy Olsen is now a woman, never cared about him anyway.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 13, 2013 14:56:52 GMT -5
But I find a problem with that because the answer seems to be if she isn't a stereotype then being Chinese-American isn't important. As a Filipino-American, I don't fit into most Asian stereotypes like being interested in math, I don't have "tiger parents" but being Filipino-American is important to me and who I am. If someone were to come up to me and say you can be white or black or anything else, I'd feel a little insulted. Sure her race could be anything as the All-American teen but she was written as chinese because a chinese girl can be the All American teen. That's part of the character. To me, the message is still she's not "asian enough" or he's "black enough" and it stays. Can all characters stay the same? Can all characters change? I don't have an answer. I think Laurence Fishbourne is a good choice as Perry White and I don't care that Jimmy Olsen is now a woman, never cared about him anyway. As someone who's a mix of so many damned things, not just racially/ethnically, but other "identity groups" as well (by most social reckonings), the "Not X Enough" line is a sore spot with me. I personally don't want to be defined by any of that "identity group" jibba-jabba (to steal a phrase from Mr. T). Like I said before, it's a hard line to walk today, trying to play integration against celebrating diversity. Some people have taken "integration" to mean "act white" (unfortunately), and others have taken "celebrate and respect diversity" to add "...at the exclusion of the prevailing culture" to the end. It really seems like now you're either you're a racist, or an advocate, and there's no "neither" anymore.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 15:55:16 GMT -5
But I find a problem with that because the answer seems to be if she isn't a stereotype then being Chinese-American isn't important. As a Filipino-American, I don't fit into most Asian stereotypes like being interested in math, I don't have "tiger parents" but being Filipino-American is important to me and who I am. If someone were to come up to me and say you can be white or black or anything else, I'd feel a little insulted. Sure her race could be anything as the All-American teen but she was written as chinese because a chinese girl can be the All American teen. That's part of the character. To me, the message is still she's not "asian enough" or he's "black enough" and it stays. Can all characters stay the same? Can all characters change? I don't have an answer. I think Laurence Fishbourne is a good choice as Perry White and I don't care that Jimmy Olsen is now a woman, never cared about him anyway. As someone who's a mix of so many damned things, not just racially/ethnically, but other "identity groups" as well (by most social reckonings), the "Not X Enough" line is a sore spot with me. I personally don't want to be defined by any of that "identity group" jibba-jabba (to steal a phrase from Mr. T). Like I said before, it's a hard line to walk today, trying to play integration against celebrating diversity. Some people have taken "integration" to mean "act white" (unfortunately), and others have taken "celebrate and respect diversity" to add "...at the exclusion of the prevailing culture" to the end. It really seems like now you're either you're a racist, or an advocate, and there's no "neither" anymore. I don't want to be defined, I simply am. If I were to change races, I wouldn't be me, I'd be an entirely different person with an entirely different background. When I see an established character changed or talked about changed, like say a black James Bond, I don't like that. It's lazy, let's creative off the hook and offers nothing new. I don't want Idris Elba as a black James Bond, I want Idris Elba as his own secret agent Luther, a whole new character with something to offer on screen.
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Post by Legion on May 13, 2013 16:30:58 GMT -5
Spot on. It takes an established character and just changes his race. That doesn't make him a great african-american superhero, it just makes him someone riding on the coattails of a successful established character. Creating a "great black superhero" isn't the goal. It's playing a superhero who's race is immaterial to the way he's always been presented, and giving the role to whichever actor auditions best or best suits what they're looking for. The key concept is that eventually whether the actor is black, white, or whatever doesn't even need to enter into our consciousness, because it's very arbitrary. It's an established character who can literally be played by someone of any race, because nothing about Johnny Storm's race defines who he is. ...And it feels like people keep answering this, then that answer is ignored while people just keep saying the same things, instead of arguing or conceding or at least acknowledging that point. But it isnt immaterial to a fan of the source material. To go to see something and to expect to see a translation of the characters and stories that you love and then to not see that but see a bastardisation of that is going to take people out of the film. For me at least, it isnt about racism. It's about wanting to see the comics I love translated to the big screen as faithfully as possible so I can go along and see a live action version of that comic, and that means the characters have to look like they look in the books, else frankly, what is the point? If you arent going to make a film with the characters as they are and how they look, why not just make your own film with your own characters?
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