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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on May 13, 2013 16:34:06 GMT -5
The cracked article sucks because its not really interested in exposing racism but rather just take a cheep swipe at nerds because lets face it and this day and age nerds(even though at times they can indeed be a intolerable bunch no doubt) are still a easy and acceptable target for all sorts of criticism and abuse.
That being said I'm honestly I'm really not bothered by this as I've never been interested in the Fantastic Four whatsoever, however I really can't help but find this to be lazy way for the a bunch of producers to give themselves some easy brownie points for being progressive with out actually having to do anything.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 13, 2013 16:48:13 GMT -5
Ill add to the group saying that article was as horribly written as a man with the shakes trying to write his name in the snow while in a blizzard.
Just very badly written.
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 16:51:12 GMT -5
But I find a problem with that because the answer seems to be if she isn't a stereotype then being Chinese-American isn't important. As a Filipino-American, I don't fit into most Asian stereotypes like being interested in math, I don't have "tiger parents" but being Filipino-American is important to me and who I am. If someone were to come up to me and say you can be white or black or anything else, I'd feel a little insulted. Sure her race could be anything as the All-American teen but she was written as chinese because a chinese girl can be the All American teen. That's part of the character. To me, the message is still she's not "asian enough" or he's "black enough" and it stays. Can all characters stay the same? Can all characters change? I don't have an answer. I think Laurence Fishbourne is a good choice as Perry White and I don't care that Jimmy Olsen is now a woman, never cared about him anyway. So, I'm trying to understand, you only think it's a bastardization of the character if you personally have some sort of attachment to that character, but if it's some character you don't mind, you're fine with it? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? To me, I just think you get the best actors available and as long as you get the core of the character down, you can still make a good movie out of it. When you're translating into a new medium, you have to expect some changes for the sake of what you have available. Sometimes, you do get just the right actor to play a certain part and it fits in perfectly with the comic portrayal (RDJ as Iron Man), sometimes you have to change things based on what you have or what opportunities you get. I grew up a fan of superhero cartoons, characters change so drastically along different portrayals that what they look like becomes less important to me than just telling a good story with them.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 17:00:12 GMT -5
I said I don't have an answer and it is a double standard. I also have no attachment to Jubilee but when I read that a Chinese-American can be turned to a White character and somehow that's great but other characters can't? I still don't understand that.
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Post by Welfare Willis on May 13, 2013 17:01:53 GMT -5
I said I don't have an answer and it is a double standard. I also have no attachment to Jubilee but when I read that a Chinese-American can be turned to a White character and somehow that's great but other characters can't? I still don't understand that. Just wait a couple years when we have Chinese Batman. China's time is coming.
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 17:12:06 GMT -5
I said I don't have an answer and it is a double standard. I also have no attachment to Jubilee but when I read that a Chinese-American can be turned to a White character and somehow that's great but other characters can't? I still don't understand that. Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 13, 2013 17:26:19 GMT -5
Really, this and the other big hot button topic in pop culture make me want to.write off other places for good. It just reeks too much of the exact thing people are fighting against.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 13, 2013 17:34:30 GMT -5
I said I don't have an answer and it is a double standard. I also have no attachment to Jubilee but when I read that a Chinese-American can be turned to a White character and somehow that's great but other characters can't? I still don't understand that. Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available. No, the galling part is the implication that the character is "fair game" if they AREN'T defined by their race/ethnicity.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 17:35:00 GMT -5
I said I don't have an answer and it is a double standard. I also have no attachment to Jubilee but when I read that a Chinese-American can be turned to a White character and somehow that's great but other characters can't? I still don't understand that. Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available. Because being Chinese-American is part of the character. If that wasn't part of the character then she'd have been written and drawn as white. How about this what if Static Virgil Hawkins were defined as "teenager" and changed to white?
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 17:35:38 GMT -5
Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available. No, the galling part is the implication that the character is "fair game" if they AREN'T defined by their race/ethnicity. No, it really isn't. At least the stance is consistent. Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available. Because being Chinese-American is part of the character. If that wasn't part of the character then she'd have been written and drawn as white. How about this what if Static Virgil Hawkins were defined as "teenager" and changed to white? Not really. She's a character who happens to be Chinese, and probably was because she was introduced at a time when diversity was really a hot-button issue being pushed in Children's media. But, believe it or not, some people just aren't heavily defined by their race. That's not a bad thing, in fact, that's how new characters should be written, but it's just the fact.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 13, 2013 17:38:22 GMT -5
Is it really that hard to understand at this point? It's been said several times. It's not about her race, it's about her characterization. It's not that she's fair game because she's Chinese, it's that her being Chinese is more incidental to the character than anything else. If you can be as true as possible to the core character and tell a good story with them, then I don't see a problem with changing certain details about their person to meet the best acting options you have available. Because being Chinese-American is part of the character. If that wasn't part of the character then she'd have been written and drawn as white. How about this what if Static Virgil Hawkins were defined as "teenager" and changed to white? Would you also include his mother and sister in this, cause if not, its kind of the point of the Torch thing and the view of some of the people who didnt enjoy it.
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Post by Piccolo on May 13, 2013 17:50:40 GMT -5
If you arent going to make a film with the characters as they are and how they look, why not just make your own film with your own characters? No one but Danes should play Hamlet, ever. In fact, if you want to be a Shakespearean actor, you'd best be white... no non-whites allowed in our most cherished plays unless you're gonna be Othello or Shylock. There definitely should not be a black Inspector Javert in any Les Miserables musicals, or heaven forfend, a Filipina Eponine. Who cares about great actors or great singing? If they're the wrong color, too freaking bad. That sounds massively unreasonable, right? But that's essentially what we're saying here. Actors need to look exactly as the character looks, or our fragile suspension of disbelief is shattered. If a character's race doesn't change the story, why be so thin-skinned about a POC getting a shot at a great role? White people have plenty of great roles they can go out for, and they often get cast as other races anyway (see Johnny Depp in The Lone Ranger for a recent example, or {Spoiler}{spoilers for new Star Trek movie}Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan.) Plus, if they hold open auditions with people of all races, and the white guy is best, he'll still get the role. So why is it so painful to see a guy whose whiteness is completely immaterial to his character played by a POC actor who had the best audition?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 13, 2013 18:10:40 GMT -5
As an Asian, I'd have a big problem with that. There's very little Asian representation in superhero comics to begin with and for a pretty well known Asian character to be defined as simply "teenager" is annoying. Still it is a valid observation. Besides being a SoCal Mallrat, can you, without looking it up, tell me what her ethnic derivation was? (Past tense, given she is a Vampire now). Or even what her full name was? Those are two pretty easy questions... Chinese American. Jubilation Lee Hence the name Edit: go back to reading the page and of course like 3 people beat me to it... that's all I'm going to add to this topic... well that and add to the count that the article was poorly written at best, pretty blatant trolling at worst.
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Post by Piccolo on May 13, 2013 18:18:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with those being really easy questions. I barely read any of the comics (basically just watched the cartoon show when I was younger), and even I knew that much about her.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on May 13, 2013 18:22:05 GMT -5
No, the galling part is the implication that the character is "fair game" if they AREN'T defined by their race/ethnicity. No, it really isn't. At least the stance is consistent. Because being Chinese-American is part of the character. If that wasn't part of the character then she'd have been written and drawn as white. How about this what if Static Virgil Hawkins were defined as "teenager" and changed to white? Not really. She's a character who happens to be Chinese, and probably was because she was introduced at a time when diversity was really a hot-button issue being pushed in Children's media. But, believe it or not, some people just aren't heavily defined by their race. That's not a bad thing, in fact, that's how new characters should be written, but it's just the fact. Your consistency is what's bothering me. To keep the consistency that Johnny Storm can be black, you say Jubilee can be white. By saying their race can change and be interchanged, that's how it should be written. So is Storm a poorly written character? She can't be replaced by a white actress because being an African Princess is too much part of that character. So strip her character down to the point where the culture that comes from not only being black but being raised in Africa can be removed and she can be white.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 13, 2013 18:24:29 GMT -5
People just want their favorite characters to look like their favorite characters, white/black/green/whatever. The "nerds" this article claims are racist are the same people who would get up in arms if they didn't cast a black guy as Luke Cage or Falcon. Those "nerds" are also the same people who got pissed off when Christopher Nolan cast a white guy as Bane because the character is South American. There's nothing racist about it. I guarantee that if they did a Justice League movie and made Martian Manhunter blue instead of green, people would throw a fit, and those are fictional skin tones.
Like has already been said, it just feels like stunt casting when they do stuff like this. People talk about race needing to be thrown out when it comes to casting parts in Hollywood, and that's absolutely true. However, when a primary protagonist already has a defined and marketed appearance, it's stupid to deliberately go against that because you're going to alienate more people than you're going to impress.
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 18:46:47 GMT -5
No, it really isn't. At least the stance is consistent. Not really. She's a character who happens to be Chinese, and probably was because she was introduced at a time when diversity was really a hot-button issue being pushed in Children's media. But, believe it or not, some people just aren't heavily defined by their race. That's not a bad thing, in fact, that's how new characters should be written, but it's just the fact. Your consistency is what's bothering me. To keep the consistency that Johnny Storm can be black, you say Jubilee can be white. By saying their race can change and be interchanged, that's how it should be written. So is Storm a poorly written character? She can't be replaced by a white actress because being an African Princess is too much part of that character. So strip her character down to the point where the culture that comes from not only being black but being raised in Africa can be removed and she can be white. Storm's not poorly written (although admittedly, I was never a huge fan), just a differently written character. As far as characters go, she's pretty solid, got a distinct personality and backstory. Poorly doing it would be like how they had John Stewart's personalities all break down to different black stereotypes, or making M. Bison an evil real estate mogul. I can't say I understand the last sentence though. Like, if you took away all references whatsoever to her culture and heritage, then you could make her white? That would be removing a significant part of her look and characterization though. It's apples and oranges to try to compare it to a character whose race is incidental. People just want their favorite characters to look like their favorite characters, white/black/green/whatever. The "nerds" this article claims are racist are the same people who would get up in arms if they didn't cast a black guy as Luke Cage or Falcon. Those "nerds" are also the same people who got pissed off when Christopher Nolan cast a white guy as Bane because the character is South American. There's nothing racist about it. I guarantee that if they did a Justice League movie and made Martian Manhunter blue instead of green, people would throw a fit, and those are fictional skin tones. See ,if people were upset by Bane or any change, I don't really see a problem. Then it's obviously not about race, it's about always wanting movies to look like comic books. I don't agree, but they're free to have their own opinion. But I have to admit, I didn't see the complaints about Bane being white.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on May 13, 2013 18:52:46 GMT -5
Creating a "great black superhero" isn't the goal. It's playing a superhero who's race is immaterial to the way he's always been presented, and giving the role to whichever actor auditions best or best suits what they're looking for. The key concept is that eventually whether the actor is black, white, or whatever doesn't even need to enter into our consciousness, because it's very arbitrary. It's an established character who can literally be played by someone of any race, because nothing about Johnny Storm's race defines who he is. ...And it feels like people keep answering this, then that answer is ignored while people just keep saying the same things, instead of arguing or conceding or at least acknowledging that point. But it isnt immaterial to a fan of the source material. To go to see something and to expect to see a translation of the characters and stories that you love and then to not see that but see a bastardisation of that is going to take people out of the film. For me at least, it isnt about racism. It's about wanting to see the comics I love translated to the big screen as faithfully as possible so I can go along and see a live action version of that comic, and that means the characters have to look like they look in the books, else frankly, what is the point? If you arent going to make a film with the characters as they are and how they look, why not just make your own film with your own characters? Exactly.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 13, 2013 19:02:59 GMT -5
Your consistency is what's bothering me. To keep the consistency that Johnny Storm can be black, you say Jubilee can be white. By saying their race can change and be interchanged, that's how it should be written. So is Storm a poorly written character? She can't be replaced by a white actress because being an African Princess is too much part of that character. So strip her character down to the point where the culture that comes from not only being black but being raised in Africa can be removed and she can be white. Storm's not poorly written (although admittedly, I was never a huge fan), just a differently written character. As far as characters go, she's pretty solid, got a distinct personality and backstory. Poorly doing it would be like how they had John Stewart's personalities all break down to different black stereotypes, or making M. Bison an evil real estate mogul. I can't say I understand the last sentence though. Like, if you took away all references whatsoever to her culture and heritage, then you could make her white? That would be removing a significant part of her look and characterization though. It's apples and oranges to try to compare it to a character whose race is incidental. People just want their favorite characters to look like their favorite characters, white/black/green/whatever. The "nerds" this article claims are racist are the same people who would get up in arms if they didn't cast a black guy as Luke Cage or Falcon. Those "nerds" are also the same people who got pissed off when Christopher Nolan cast a white guy as Bane because the character is South American. There's nothing racist about it. I guarantee that if they did a Justice League movie and made Martian Manhunter blue instead of green, people would throw a fit, and those are fictional skin tones. See ,if people were upset by Bane or any change, I don't really see a problem. Then it's obviously not about race, it's about always wanting movies to look like comic books. I don't agree, but they're free to have their own opinion. But I have to admit, I didn't see the complaints about Bane being white. There was a lot of complaining about white Bane on the comic book forums I go to, and the guys I always chat with at my local comic shop were borderline angry over it. Tom Hardy actually addresses it himself on the Dark Knight Rises Blu-ray documentaries. There was definitely an anti-white Bane sentiment amongst comic fans.
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Post by Red Impact on May 13, 2013 19:07:00 GMT -5
That's fair. I don't frequent any comic book forums, and didn't really see it anywhere I do frequent, but if people are consistently upset about any change to a major character, I can't fault them for it. That's certainly not racist to me.
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