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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 0:02:48 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan has always been extremely overrated even back in his ROH days. He's really really bland luckily he found something in WWE to make him tolerable but I'm not a fan at all. IWC overrates him massively. "Best in the world" proves that. I don't troll. What I mean is someone doesn't care if there is a technical masterpiece every week. They don't want that, that's why wrestlers like Benoit and Bret Hart aren't on the same level as Stone Cold, Rock, Hogan etc. Being a great wrestler hasn't mean anything since the 80's it's not a draw anymore. WrestleMania sells out because it's a spectacle and popularity of the wrestlers. If WrestleMania 30's main event was Cesaro Vs Daniel Bryan who would care? The undercard could even have KENTA Vs CM Punk which would be an amazing match. Nobody cares about that though. A good quality wrestling match isn't what people want anymore This is one of the reasons I think message boards taint the wrestling experience for a lot of people these days. I mean, I do indeed respect your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it, but I mean regardless of who you are talking about, this post just comes off very cynical and mean. I mean, yeah maybe I'm biased as a Bryan fan, but "He's really really bland luckily he found something in WWE to make him tolerable but I'm not a fan at all. IWC overrates him massively." .....Just has this weird sense of bitterness to it. I mean, yeah, hey sometimes the "IWC" sickens me too being cynical in the opposite direction (which I'm guessing you're indirectly reacting to.) But I mean, in terms of people like Bryan and Cesaro being good wrestlers, you know who does care about good wrestling? The actual wrestlers. If you recall, the year HBK/Taker had their first WM encounter, WWE.com had an article at the end of the year ranking the best of the matches according to the boys themselves. Of course HBK/UT took first, but Daniel Bryan vs Dolph Ziggler at Bragging Rights either shared first place or took second (I forget.) This was before Bryan "got lucky" with "YES!" and his gimmick was called "bland good wrestler" by many on here.
In the somewhat of the same way, I don't know if you have noticed but several of the WWE superstars have been sporting Cesaro's WWE shirt; Punk, Bryan, Regal, and Langston to name a few. They know Cesaro is talented and not boring, and of course that won't always manifest in popularity, but if these guys who actually do the things we talk about on here see something in Cesaro, I would think we should trust their judgement a little bit.
Cesaro hasn't been done any favors lately, but I think he's doing what he needs to do. He's having a great matches with everyone. By having great matches with everyone, he shows he has worth. People who have enjoyed Cesaro's work know he has more to offer, but I think the mere fact that he's definitely going to be sticking around because of his wrestling talent guarantees that he likely going to be given a few chances to succeed. I mean, Bryan before MITB was basically in somewhat of the same position, except as a face. He was getting beat left and right, and then suddenly, he was given a good hard push and a reason to be around the upper mid card, and look at him now. "Overrated" or not, it's no coincidence that he has been working with major stars like Cena, Taker, and Kane. I forsee a similar path for Cesaro. It's just going to take some time, plus some work from Cesaro and those behind the curtain.
I'm not bitter about Daniel Bryan I just think he's better suited to a company like ROH. He did find something to seperate him which is great but people claiming he's the best wrestler in the world where he doesn't really draw a dime is asinine. The wrestlers care of course they do but it's not a draw in WWE. People don't tune into WWE to see a good match. I like a good match as much as the next guy but I'm not going to pretend Cesaro isn't boring to a WWE audience. I'm also not going to pretend that the WWE wants good quality wrestling matches because they and their audience don't. What happens with these guys is they come from ROH or CHIKARA and EVERYONE jumps on the band wagon whether these guys are good or not. Cesaro is incredibly boring and only a few people in this thread have pointed it out. The others believe the guy couldn't POSSIBLY be boring based on his past experience. Cesaro has never been entertaining to me in the least. His ROH work was boring too.
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Post by Error on May 15, 2013 0:06:11 GMT -5
Cesaro is incredibly boring and only a few people in this thread have pointed it out. The others believe the guy couldn't POSSIBLY be boring based on his past experience. Cesaro has never been entertaining to me in the least. His ROH work was boring too. Or, maybe, just maybe, people have different opinions and yours, like mine, means shit all to anyone that isn't the person holding it and that includes the people in charge at every major wrestling company?
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Post by Djm Doesn't Find You Funny on May 15, 2013 0:13:09 GMT -5
This is one of the reasons I think message boards taint the wrestling experience for a lot of people these days. I mean, I do indeed respect your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it, but I mean regardless of who you are talking about, this post just comes off very cynical and mean. I mean, yeah maybe I'm biased as a Bryan fan, but "He's really really bland luckily he found something in WWE to make him tolerable but I'm not a fan at all. IWC overrates him massively." .....Just has this weird sense of bitterness to it. I mean, yeah, hey sometimes the "IWC" sickens me too being cynical in the opposite direction (which I'm guessing you're indirectly reacting to.) But I mean, in terms of people like Bryan and Cesaro being good wrestlers, you know who does care about good wrestling? The actual wrestlers. If you recall, the year HBK/Taker had their first WM encounter, WWE.com had an article at the end of the year ranking the best of the matches according to the boys themselves. Of course HBK/UT took first, but Daniel Bryan vs Dolph Ziggler at Bragging Rights either shared first place or took second (I forget.) This was before Bryan "got lucky" with "YES!" and his gimmick was called "bland good wrestler" by many on here.
In the somewhat of the same way, I don't know if you have noticed but several of the WWE superstars have been sporting Cesaro's WWE shirt; Punk, Bryan, Regal, and Langston to name a few. They know Cesaro is talented and not boring, and of course that won't always manifest in popularity, but if these guys who actually do the things we talk about on here see something in Cesaro, I would think we should trust their judgement a little bit.
Cesaro hasn't been done any favors lately, but I think he's doing what he needs to do. He's having a great matches with everyone. By having great matches with everyone, he shows he has worth. People who have enjoyed Cesaro's work know he has more to offer, but I think the mere fact that he's definitely going to be sticking around because of his wrestling talent guarantees that he likely going to be given a few chances to succeed. I mean, Bryan before MITB was basically in somewhat of the same position, except as a face. He was getting beat left and right, and then suddenly, he was given a good hard push and a reason to be around the upper mid card, and look at him now. "Overrated" or not, it's no coincidence that he has been working with major stars like Cena, Taker, and Kane. I forsee a similar path for Cesaro. It's just going to take some time, plus some work from Cesaro and those behind the curtain.
I'm not bitter about Daniel Bryan I just think he's better suited to a company like ROH. He did find something to seperate him which is great but people claiming he's the best wrestler in the world where he doesn't really draw a dime is asinine. The wrestlers care of course they do but it's not a draw in WWE. People don't tune into WWE to see a good match. I like a good match as much as the next guy but I'm not going to pretend Cesaro isn't boring to a WWE audience. I'm also not going to pretend that the WWE wants good quality wrestling matches because they and their audience don't. What happens with these guys is they come from ROH or CHIKARA and EVERYONE jumps on the band wagon whether these guys are good or not. Cesaro is incredibly boring and only a few people in this thread have pointed it out. The others believe the guy couldn't POSSIBLY be boring based on his past experience. Cesaro has never been entertaining to me in the least. His ROH work was boring too. Whether you're trolling or not (and I'm still not so sure), I find this to be just absurd. You can say that you're not a fan of Daniel Bryan, and that's fine. But could everyone please stop saying that he's just some sort of wrestling automaton? People that said he couldn't show personality were being proven wrong when he was still in front of Ring of Honor fans. He had to deal with the most cynical and difficult to please wrestling audience out there, and they worshiped him like a god. And it was for more than just putting on good matches, which he excelled at too, by the way. He has shown that he can be perfectly capable with a microphone in his hand. Comedy, serious, and against any opponent of any size at any level. Just...enough of this.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 0:18:47 GMT -5
I'm not bitter about Daniel Bryan I just think he's better suited to a company like ROH. He did find something to seperate him which is great but people claiming he's the best wrestler in the world where he doesn't really draw a dime is asinine. Please cite your sources
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Post by Society of the Spectacle on May 15, 2013 0:30:28 GMT -5
This is one of the reasons I think message boards taint the wrestling experience for a lot of people these days. I mean, I do indeed respect your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it, but I mean regardless of who you are talking about, this post just comes off very cynical and mean. I mean, yeah maybe I'm biased as a Bryan fan, but "He's really really bland luckily he found something in WWE to make him tolerable but I'm not a fan at all. IWC overrates him massively." .....Just has this weird sense of bitterness to it. I mean, yeah, hey sometimes the "IWC" sickens me too being cynical in the opposite direction (which I'm guessing you're indirectly reacting to.) But I mean, in terms of people like Bryan and Cesaro being good wrestlers, you know who does care about good wrestling? The actual wrestlers. If you recall, the year HBK/Taker had their first WM encounter, WWE.com had an article at the end of the year ranking the best of the matches according to the boys themselves. Of course HBK/UT took first, but Daniel Bryan vs Dolph Ziggler at Bragging Rights either shared first place or took second (I forget.) This was before Bryan "got lucky" with "YES!" and his gimmick was called "bland good wrestler" by many on here.
In the somewhat of the same way, I don't know if you have noticed but several of the WWE superstars have been sporting Cesaro's WWE shirt; Punk, Bryan, Regal, and Langston to name a few. They know Cesaro is talented and not boring, and of course that won't always manifest in popularity, but if these guys who actually do the things we talk about on here see something in Cesaro, I would think we should trust their judgement a little bit.
Cesaro hasn't been done any favors lately, but I think he's doing what he needs to do. He's having a great matches with everyone. By having great matches with everyone, he shows he has worth. People who have enjoyed Cesaro's work know he has more to offer, but I think the mere fact that he's definitely going to be sticking around because of his wrestling talent guarantees that he likely going to be given a few chances to succeed. I mean, Bryan before MITB was basically in somewhat of the same position, except as a face. He was getting beat left and right, and then suddenly, he was given a good hard push and a reason to be around the upper mid card, and look at him now. "Overrated" or not, it's no coincidence that he has been working with major stars like Cena, Taker, and Kane. I forsee a similar path for Cesaro. It's just going to take some time, plus some work from Cesaro and those behind the curtain.
I'm not bitter about Daniel Bryan I just think he's better suited to a company like ROH. He did find something to seperate him which is great but people claiming he's the best wrestler in the world where he doesn't really draw a dime is asinine. The wrestlers care of course they do but it's not a draw in WWE. People don't tune into WWE to see a good match. I like a good match as much as the next guy but I'm not going to pretend Cesaro isn't boring to a WWE audience. I'm also not going to pretend that the WWE wants good quality wrestling matches because they and their audience don't. What happens with these guys is they come from ROH or CHIKARA and EVERYONE jumps on the band wagon whether these guys are good or not. Cesaro is incredibly boring and only a few people in this thread have pointed it out. The others believe the guy couldn't POSSIBLY be boring based on his past experience. Cesaro has never been entertaining to me in the least. His ROH work was boring too. You're missing my last point though. Him being liked amongst the boys and being a good wrestler won't show up on Neilsen ratings or in t-shirt sales sure, but it's going to keep him around. And the longer he is kept around, the more chance he has to get a foothold. Look at people like Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio. All through WCW/ECW and their early WWE tenures, they were seen mainly as great workers and not too too much else. They put in their time, had great matches with everyone, and their in-ring talents, along with some inventive thinking behind the scenes and precise execution in the ring made those guys into huge stars. Cesaro will never become the Rock, Hogan, or even Cena. However, I think most of us who are fans of his would just be happy seeing him reach his full potential in WWE. I'm under the impression that you feel he has no potential. That is fine. However, many people, including pretty important figures at WWE feel he does have a lot of potential, so whether you like it or not, he's going to be hanging around. Get used to it.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on May 15, 2013 0:33:14 GMT -5
I think Daniel Bryan's a decent wrestler, that's about it. His character (to me) is a notch above Santino right about now. It literally does nothing for me whatsoever. Kane is my saving grace where he's concerned.
On topic:
As far as Cesaro, I think he's a good wrestler but has a crap finisher. Character-wise, he bores me to tears. I saw a lot of his Chikara stuff and even now, it just doesn't draw me in. I do think he had something good going when he was doing his Pro-America/Anti-American stuff but with that getting jacked, he's just another generic guy to me.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 0:33:28 GMT -5
I'm not bitter about Daniel Bryan I just think he's better suited to a company like ROH. He did find something to seperate him which is great but people claiming he's the best wrestler in the world where he doesn't really draw a dime is asinine. Please cite your sources It's obvious isn't it? The dude hasn't main evented a PPV in a long time and was such a flop as World Heavyweight Champion that Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds. They did that because the dude wasn't drawing on top. He went into that feud with Punk and even during that their match would take second billing to the real main event. He then teamed with Kane and although funny and a great team for the smarks it's "meat" of the show at best. Nobody is buying a PPV to see Team Hell No and that's why they aren't in main events. He's Upper Midcard at best. He isn't the best wrestler in the world he's a decent Upper Midcard talent, that's all.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on May 15, 2013 0:43:12 GMT -5
It's obvious isn't it? The dude hasn't main evented a PPV in a long time and was such a flop as World Heavyweight Champion that Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds. They did that because the dude wasn't drawing on top. He went into that feud with Punk and even during that their match would take second billing to the real main event. He then teamed with Kane and although funny and a great team for the smarks it's "meat" of the show at best. Nobody is buying a PPV to see Team Hell No and that's why they aren't in main events. He's Upper Midcard at best. He isn't the best wrestler in the world he's a decent Upper Midcard talent, that's all. Yes and no. Yes, he's upper midcard, but the line between upper midcard and main event is so blurred these days that WWE can't really decide who they want to be a main eventer and who they want to be an upper midcarder. That's why the roster is so top heavy right now. Bryan became more over because of 18 seconds, to the point where they had to move him to RAW to get him away from Sheamus because the fans' bitterness over it was killing Sheamus' popularity. EVERYONE takes second billing to whatever John Cena is doing. Team Hell No aren't in main events? Ever since November, WWE seem to be unable to book a main event storyline without randomly throwing Team Hell No into it. They always have two random spots to that they need to fill in the main event, and instead of pushing some new stars to fill those spots, they throw Kane and Bryan into it. Daniel Bryan IS being pushed as a main eventer, unfortunately at the expense of the tag titles.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 0:47:49 GMT -5
So...no sources other than your opinion? Gotcha.
But if you'd like to try again, try finding something to back up the whole "Wrestling fans don't want good matches (Except smarks)" thing you were saying earlier. That should be a good read.
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 0:48:33 GMT -5
It's obvious isn't it? The dude hasn't main evented a PPV in a long time and was such a flop as World Heavyweight Champion that Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds. They did that because the dude wasn't drawing on top. He went into that feud with Punk and even during that their match would take second billing to the real main event. He then teamed with Kane and although funny and a great team for the smarks it's "meat" of the show at best. Nobody is buying a PPV to see Team Hell No and that's why they aren't in main events. He's Upper Midcard at best. He isn't the best wrestler in the world he's a decent Upper Midcard talent, that's all. Yes and no. Yes, he's upper midcard, but the line between upper midcard and main event is so blurred these days that WWE can't really decide who they want to be a main eventer and who they want to be an upper midcarder. That's why the roster is so top heavy right now. Bryan became more over because of 18 seconds, to the point where they had to move him to RAW to get him away from Sheamus because the fans' bitterness over it was killing Sheamus' popularity. EVERYONE takes second billing to whatever John Cena is doing. Team Hell No aren't in main events? Ever since November, WWE seem to be unable to book a main event storyline without randomly throwing Team Hell No into it. They always have two random spots to that they need to fill in the main event, and instead of pushing some new stars to fill those spots, they throw Kane and Bryan into it. Daniel Bryan IS being pushed as a main eventer, unfortunately at the expense of the tag titles. I'm talking PPV's. Main event of RAW doesn't mean anything but who's buying a PPV with Daniel Bryan on top?
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Post by cool guy on May 15, 2013 0:51:50 GMT -5
Nobody insists that Dan Brown is the best author in the world because his books are some of the best selling, I don't know why we all have to apply that logic to wrestlers.
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 0:54:04 GMT -5
So...no sources other than your opinion? Gotcha. But if you'd like to try again, try finding something to back up the whole "Wrestling fans don't want good matches (Except smarks)" thing you were saying earlier. That should be a good read. It's obvious. If he's the best in the world why isn't he main eventing against Lesnar, Cena, Punk, Taker etc? They don't just drop a guy into a tag team if they think he's the best in the world. I get that you're probably a huge Bryan fan like most people on this board but you must at least recognize that WWE has no real faith in him as a maine vent player. He's like what Chris Benoit was in 05-06.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 1:01:19 GMT -5
Why does asking you to prove the things you say make me a Bryan fan? When people start throwing out ridiculous statements like "so and so doesn't draw anything", I always ask them to at least prove it with anything that's not just an opinion.
And why are you even taking such a hyperbolic statement like "best in the world" so seriously as to make you bitter towards Bryan and his fans? "Best in the world" =/= "most profitable in the world", and I doubt anyone in this topic has implied otherwise.
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 1:02:46 GMT -5
Why does asking you to prove the things you say make me a Bryan fan? When people start throwing out ridiculous statements like "so and so doesn't draw anything", I always ask them to at least prove it with anything that's not just an opinion. And why are you even taking such a hyperbolic statement like "best in the world" so seriously as to make you bitter towards Bryan and his fans? "Best in the world" =/= "most profitable in the world", and I doubt anyone in this topic has implied otherwise. But it isn't opinion, If Daniel Bryan is a draw why isn't he on top? You didn't answer that because you know he doesn't draw on top.
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Post by Digital Witness on May 15, 2013 1:08:09 GMT -5
For someone who apparently doesn't draw a dime, Daniel Bryan sure seems to have had quite a bit of merch compared to other upper mid card guys...
Having said that, whenever Team Hell No parts ways, I fully expect Daniel Bryan to be a permanent fixture of the main event scene. I actually expect him to eventually be someone like John Cena that transcends the belt and doesn't have to have it to main event.
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 1:11:28 GMT -5
For someone who apparently doesn't draw a dime, Daniel Bryan sure seems to have had quite a bit of merch compared to other upper mid card guys... All because it's there doesn't mean it sells.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 1:12:41 GMT -5
Then back it up with anything not related to you being upset over a ridiculously meaningless title like "best in the world". Did I say he draws on top? Because asking me to back up statements that I never made might be a bit difficult for me. Seems odd that WWE would make the decision to keep producing merch for a guy that "doesn't draw a dime", right?
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 1:18:18 GMT -5
Then back it up with anything not related to you being upset over a ridiculously meaningless title like "best in the world". Did I say he draws on top? Because asking me to back up statements that I never made might be a bit difficult for me. Which is why WWE has made the great decision to keep producing merch that doesn't sell....? 1. People are saying Daniel Bryan is a draw. I'm pointing out he isn't I don't know what you want me to prove. I already proved he isn't a draw on top. He's an okay Upper Midcard guy that people can enjoy but he's not putting butts in the seats or having eyes glued to the TV. Guys like Cena, Punk, Ryback, Lesnar, Triple H have that ability. Bryan does not. 2. Your entire argument was for me to prove that he didn't draw on top. I proved it you still try and claim it's my opinion despite the fact Daniel Bryan hasn't been on top of a WWE PPV in over a year. 3. Zack Ryder has more merch than Daniel Bryan does that mean Zack Ryder is a bigger draw than Daniel Bryan. Hell, Zack Ryder has more merchandise than Lesnar. Is he a bigger draw than Lesnar? I don't doubt Bryan is popular btw. I'm just saying 90% of his fan base is smarks and that being a smark favourite doesn't sell PPV's
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Post by Digital Witness on May 15, 2013 1:19:54 GMT -5
For someone who apparently doesn't draw a dime, Daniel Bryan sure seems to have had quite a bit of merch compared to other upper mid card guys... All because it's there doesn't mean it sells. That would be a pretty stupid investment of funds to make a lot of merch for somebody, and have it not sell. WWE is a profitable corporation with an intelligent business plan, and wouldn't take the risks of printing thousands of shirts for somebody they don't have faith in to get that merch to sell. It just wouldn't be good business.
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Post by SOR on May 15, 2013 1:21:37 GMT -5
All because it's there doesn't mean it sells. That would be a pretty stupid investment of funds to make a lot of merch for somebody, and have it not sell. WWE is a profitable corporation with an intelligent business plan, and wouldn't take the risks of printing thousands of shirts for somebody they don't have faith in to get that merch to sell. It just wouldn't be good business. Who says they didn't print it all when they thought Daniel Bryan was going to be a big deal and it's all still for sale? None of us know but if we're going with the "x has more merchandise than z so x is better than z" thing then Zack Ryder should be facing off against John Cena on PPV.
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