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Post by celticjobber on May 15, 2013 1:36:27 GMT -5
Then back it up with anything not related to you being upset over a ridiculously meaningless title like "best in the world". Did I say he draws on top? Because asking me to back up statements that I never made might be a bit difficult for me. Which is why WWE has made the great decision to keep producing merch that doesn't sell....? 1. People are saying Daniel Bryan is a draw. I'm pointing out he isn't I don't know what you want me to prove. I already proved he isn't a draw on top. He's an okay Upper Midcard guy that people can enjoy but he's not putting butts in the seats or having eyes glued to the TV. Guys like Cena, Punk, Ryback, Lesnar, Triple H have that ability. Bryan does not. 2. Your entire argument was for me to prove that he didn't draw on top. I proved it you still try and claim it's my opinion despite the fact Daniel Bryan hasn't been on top of a WWE PPV in over a year. 3. Zack Ryder has more merch than Daniel Bryan does that mean Zack Ryder is a bigger draw than Daniel Bryan. Hell, Zack Ryder has more merchandise than Lesnar. Is he a bigger draw than Lesnar? I don't doubt Bryan is popular btw. I'm just saying 90% of his fan base is smarks and that being a smark favourite doesn't sell PPV's SOR, I think you're like the version of me from an evil alternate universe. Because we literally have almost the exact opposite of opinions on just about everything in WWE. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Just because you hate Daniel Bryan and love guys like Ryback (who I think of as a talentless lug), it doesn't mean that Daniel's not a draw. Hell, it took CM Punk until 2011 and his "Pipe Bomb" promo to really break through to be a major WWE main eventer. So if you're willing to put Punk in that tier with Cena and everyone, why not give Bryan a little more time before completely writing him off? And besides, Bryan's already one of the most over stars in WWE. He sure as hell gets more of a reaction to both his entrance and everything he does in the ring than 99% of the roster. And many of those chanting "yes!" are little kids, certainly not the typical "smark" demographic. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by Digital Witness on May 15, 2013 1:39:58 GMT -5
Zack Ryder promoted himself well and had something going that was golden until WWE squashed it and broke his spirit. Obviously they adjusted after he tapered off.
Daniel Bryan whether you choose to admit it or not, is over. I'd say he's just about the most over guy on the roster that isn't holding a championship right now. I'd argue that he's more over than anyone currently feuding with the present champions at the moment. Sure, he doesn't push mountains of merch like Cena, Punk, Triple H, etc., but I think its still all in due time. I think his world title run wasn't a sink or swim push, but character development. He had to get to that high to get to the character that he has now, and however he evolves from Team Hell No will likely be what ultimately pushes a higher amount of merch in the future and draws.
I think Daniel Bryan is already a proven commodity in terms of general fan reaction, dedication to what he does and how he trains for it, and in general how he lives. Dude isn't going to get pulled over in the middle of a main event Wrestlemania push for a DUI.
I think where you say Daniel Bryan is overrated, I think its just as easy to say that you underrate him. But opinions are opinions, and you are entitled to yours.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 1:50:06 GMT -5
1. People are saying Daniel Bryan is a draw. If you go back and Ctrl+F every page in this topic, you'll see that no one ever called Bryan a "draw" in any way. In fact, the first guy to even bring it up, for no apparent reason I might add, is you. Kinda funny right? The same Ryback that was in the main event of the two PPVs that were down in buys from previous years (according to WON)? I mean, I'm guessing that's what you're using to determine draws and fan interest here. You haven't been clear on what you're using to determine Bryan's drawing and/or merchandise selling ability (or lack of). I mean other than your personal preference. I'd ask you to prove how all those people buying his merch, bringing in signs, chanting "Yes", and cheering him on every week are smarks, but we both know that wouldn't lead to anything worthwhile.
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DIIV
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Post by DIIV on May 15, 2013 2:33:08 GMT -5
It's obvious isn't it? The dude hasn't main evented a PPV in a long time and was such a flop as World Heavyweight Champion that Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds. They did that because the dude wasn't drawing on top. He went into that feud with Punk and even during that their match would take second billing to the real main event. He then teamed with Kane and although funny and a great team for the smarks it's "meat" of the show at best. Nobody is buying a PPV to see Team Hell No and that's why they aren't in main events. He's Upper Midcard at best. He isn't the best wrestler in the world he's a decent Upper Midcard talent, that's all. lol. *throws arms up in the air*
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Post by Digital Witness on May 15, 2013 2:48:28 GMT -5
I find it odd that this was an Antonio Cesaro thread to begin with and now we're here, but I digress.
I should just throw it out there in regards to the whole "best in the world" thing since it was brought up. Daniel Bryan never actually dubbed himself "best in the world". Fans of Daniel Bryan started chanting that at him to the point that it stuck. When people use Daniel Bryan and "best in the world" in the same sentence, its not total markdom, its just something that stuck from his time in ROH and beyond.
So I ask you, why do you put so much stock and angst in a label that was really just a chant that came from appreciative fans?
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on May 15, 2013 3:09:25 GMT -5
It's obvious isn't it? The dude hasn't main evented a PPV in a long time and was such a flop as World Heavyweight Champion that Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds. They did that because the dude wasn't drawing on top. He went into that feud with Punk and even during that their match would take second billing to the real main event. He then teamed with Kane and although funny and a great team for the smarks it's "meat" of the show at best. Nobody is buying a PPV to see Team Hell No and that's why they aren't in main events. He's Upper Midcard at best. He isn't the best wrestler in the world he's a decent Upper Midcard talent, that's all. You're right, when fans chant "YES!" what they're really saying is "YES! YOU'RE NOT OVER!" It's really quite obvious and I don't get why other people don't get that when you and I clearly do!
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on May 15, 2013 3:25:27 GMT -5
The average fan may not like to see "good wrestling matches", but they like seeing "cool signature moves" and Cesaro possesses a crapload of those.
I can actually visualize kids playing wrestling in school yards and trying to Swiss Death each other. Don't know if that's a good thing or not.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on May 15, 2013 6:21:00 GMT -5
I'll save everyone some time. In this thread, Sor pretends Daniel Bryan is any less of a draw than 99% of the roster (Cena's the only full-time draw), and then consistently embarrasses himself for 4 straight pages by trying to pass off his own jaded opinion as fact. Here's the deal, dude. Daniel Bryan is over. There's no way to quantify his fanbase because that would mean you'd need to know the exact mindset and preference of a boundless amount of people of all kinds. All we know conclusively is that he is popular. He gets reactions. And WWE gave him opportunity and had him work A LOT of main events over the course of the year on TV and even on PPV. He's not a big time money mover. BUT NO ONE IS full-time outside of Cena. So that's like calling out someone's poverty when 99% of the population is destitute. He's equal. Not less than any non-Cena guy. You also lose any and all credibility when you speak in absolutes; when you phrase things as if YOUR view is the truth and is shared exclusively. Only imbeciles (and Siths ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) speaks in absolutes. It's way too easy to poke holes in and defeat your stance, because you provide zero evidence. You have to realize that in the court of discussion, no proof in the face of proof means you lose. That's how arguing works. If I have the murder weapon and DNA and you say "That's not my client's!" It's on you to prove it. You have to defend your position and counteract rational counter-arguments or your opinion is worthless hearsay and holds no water. Just saying it doesn't mean it's true. And Daniel Bryan didn't "lose in 18 seconds because he wasn't a draw". He lost because that was always the plan, they wanted Sheamus to have a WrestleMania moment, and they didn't count on how popular Bryan had become in the interim. On the drawing board, his character was a weasel who brainwashed a sweet girl and only won via opportunity. Regardless of how it turned out, reception-wise, Bryan losing was a story comeuppance, not a punishment. Dear lord, man. Really. I don't understand how these types of stubborn posts even end up happening. I always figure there has to be that moment wherein a light bulb goes off in your head, and you think, "maybe I WANT it to be this way because it bugs me that people think highly of these guys I myself think are overrated. Maybe I just need to accept that my own preference might not be the mainstream consensus, regardless of how much I want it to be. Maybe I should just stop talking and using strawman arguments that make me look silly, and accept that they like what they like, and I like what I like, and no amount of stubborn, irrational and borderline obsessive posts are going to change that. I think I should just move on."
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on May 15, 2013 7:06:28 GMT -5
I'll save everyone some time. In this thread, Sor pretends Daniel Bryan is any less of a draw than 99% of the roster (Cena's the only full-time draw), and then consistently embarrasses himself for 4 straight pages by trying to pass off his own jaded opinion as fact. Here's the deal, dude. Daniel Bryan is over. There's no way to quantify his fanbase because that would mean you'd need to know the exact mindset and preference of a boundless amount of people of all kinds. All we know conclusively is that he is popular. He gets reactions. And WWE gave him opportunity and had him work A LOT of main events over the course of the year on TV and even on PPV. He's not a big time money mover. BUT NO ONE IS full-time outside of Cena. So that's like calling out someone's poverty when 99% of the population is destitute. He's equal. Not less than any non-Cena guy. You also lose any and all credibility when you speak in absolutes; when you phrase things as if YOUR view is the truth and is shared exclusively. Only imbeciles (and Siths ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) speaks in absolutes. It's way too easy to poke holes in and defeat your stance, because you provide zero evidence. You have to realize that in the court of discussion, no proof in the face of proof means you lose. That's how arguing works. If I have the murder weapon and DNA and you say "That's not my client's!" It's on you to prove it. You have to defend your position and counteract rational counter-arguments or your opinion is worthless hearsay and holds no water. Just saying it doesn't mean it's true. And Daniel Bryan didn't "lose in 18 seconds because he wasn't a draw". He lost because that was always the plan, they wanted Sheamus to have a WrestleMania moment, and they didn't count on how popular Bryan had become in the interim. On the drawing board, his character was a weasel who brainwashed a sweet girl and only won via opportunity. Regardless of how it turned out, reception-wise, Bryan losing was a story comeuppance, not a punishment. Dear lord, man. Really. I don't understand how these types of stubborn posts even end up happening. I always figure there has to be that moment wherein a light bulb goes off in your head, and you think, "maybe I WANT it to be this way because it bugs me that people think highly of these guys I myself think are overrated. Maybe I just need to accept that my own preference might not be the mainstream consensus, regardless of how much I want it to be. Maybe I should just stop talking and using strawman arguments that make me look silly, and accept that they like what they like, and I like what I like, and no amount of stubborn, irrational and borderline obsessive posts are going to change that. I think I should just move on." ![](http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/1/5/15fc7_ORIG-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif)
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Post by Mike Wooster on May 15, 2013 7:16:32 GMT -5
I really don't see how Antonio is being "depushed". He got to cut a promo on Raw and having long, competitive matches against uppercard faces. Even when Cesaro lost the title to Kofi he got a measure of payback afterwards when he tore off some of his dreads.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on May 15, 2013 10:40:32 GMT -5
It is real weird that Cesaro's run as US Champion that loses two minute matches on Raw wasn't working.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on May 15, 2013 11:02:50 GMT -5
I'd say he's just about the most over guy on the roster that isn't holding a championship right now. ![](http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/photo_large/public/photo/image/2012/09/NOC_09162012jg_1585.jpg) {Spoiler}{Spoiler}lol tag team titles.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 15, 2013 12:15:28 GMT -5
It is real weird that Cesaro's run as US Champion that loses two minute matches on Raw wasn't working. Worked about as well as his run as US champion that rarely lost decisively.
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Post by HollywoodArmbar on May 15, 2013 12:33:46 GMT -5
Cesaro is one of my absolute favourite guys to watch in the ring right now.
He does need a better gimmick though.
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Post by Digital Witness on May 15, 2013 15:58:05 GMT -5
I'd say he's just about the most over guy on the roster that isn't holding a championship right now. ![](http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/photo_large/public/photo/image/2012/09/NOC_09162012jg_1585.jpg) {Spoiler}{Spoiler}lol tag team titles. Derp. I think I meant singles championship, but you're right nonetheless.
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Post by osiris on May 15, 2013 18:56:58 GMT -5
You fellas get butt hurt pretty quickly over cesaro and Bryan.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 15, 2013 19:00:43 GMT -5
You fellas get butt hurt pretty quickly over cesaro and Bryan. It's a bit like protecting 'your' guy I think. Or your favorite purse and you're Bobby Hill.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 19:03:53 GMT -5
Overrated by who? You? Random guy on message board? Bryan is widely thought of as being one of the best wrestlers in the world AND he's now wildly popular with the bulk of WWE's target market. He's a success on both fronts. Your opinion on him is statistically insignificant. Daniel Bryan has always been extremely overrated even back in his ROH days. He's really really bland luckily he found something in WWE to make him tolerable but I'm not a fan at all. IWC overrates him massively. "Best in the world" proves that. Is this a troll post? Wrestling fans don't want good matches? I don't troll. What I mean is someone doesn't care if there is a technical masterpiece every week. They don't want that, that's why wrestlers like Benoit and Bret Hart aren't on the same level as Stone Cold, Rock, Hogan etc. Being a great wrestler hasn't mean anything since the 80's it's not a draw anymore. Yeah, and I'm sure Wrestlemania sells out for the promos. WrestleMania sells out because it's a spectacle and popularity of the wrestlers. If WrestleMania 30's main event was Cesaro Vs Daniel Bryan who would care? The undercard could even have KENTA Vs CM Punk which would be an amazing match. Nobody cares about that though. A good quality wrestling match isn't what people want anymore Dude, why don't you stop telling us what everyone else wants, speaking for millions of people, and just talk about what YOU like? These dicussions are ridiculous because you're pigeonholing EVERY non-smark wrestling fan into one box to further your argument. It's not working.
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Post by osiris on May 15, 2013 19:09:32 GMT -5
You fellas get butt hurt pretty quickly over cesaro and Bryan. It's a bit like protecting 'your' guy I think. Or your favorite purse and you're Bobby Hill. That's mah purse! I don't know you!!
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 15, 2013 19:59:24 GMT -5
It's a bit like protecting 'your' guy I think. Or your favorite purse and you're Bobby Hill. That's mah purse! I don't know you!! And instead of a kick to the testicles, it's a giant political and psychological essay about pro wrestling. Something or other.
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