RIHT
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Post by RIHT on Aug 11, 2013 12:05:46 GMT -5
Why do you guys say that? Just curious. He's very good in the ring, his personality was outlandish but funny, and the crowds loved him through 2005. For me Christian is a good mechanic wrestler. He does all the moves they look decent, but he is one of the guys that when I watch, I say wow this is the weakest looking offense in the company. Nothing that he does, looks real to me. I think he is a decent character, but not a guy I'm going to give the ball too. I concur with a lot of posters above. Christian is good at what he does, better than most at the company, but to me he really just lacks something that'd put him at the top. He's not at the top of the technical wrestlers, he's not the most exciting of the flyers, he doesn't have a killer looking finisher, he's a guy who, to me, you notice how good he is when he's on, but you tend to forget about pretty quickly when someone who does excel at something else comes on, even though he's more well rounded than they are. I see a lot of people saying Christian is just average or in general, pretty good, but I don't explicitly get why people feel that way. Yes, his 2nd WWE run was par-level at best, but he was great when he cut his hair and became his own guy. He was funny on the mic, and Tomko & Christian were a funny pair. They were outlandish and the poser-douche Christian was playing would be bizarre in the main event...but that's just it. Guys like Sandow & Fandango have appeal because they have outlandish characters. Axel does not for the most part because he's just "serious" or "intense". Plus, Christian being small adds to the heel appeal in a sense. This smaller guy somehow picking up wins added to his persona as a heel. Does anyone have a specific thing that he's missing? I just want to know why Vince and posts similar to these thing Christian is good, but not good enough to be great.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 11, 2013 12:12:58 GMT -5
Physique. He's pretty ungainly. Lanky thin legs and an upper body that ranges between a little flabby and indistinct. His awful attire doesn't help either. He still dresses like a mid-card tag team wrestler. Never liked his name either. I usually hate mono-names. "Christian" tells you nothing about him. "Christian Cage" was a slight improvement I suppose in TNA.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 11, 2013 12:14:46 GMT -5
As much as I liked him back in 2005, I don't think he should have been a top guy. A great hand to have on the roster that can occasionally be put in a main event spot but certainly not a world champion. The big reason why he worked as a main eventer in TNA was that he was a big fish in a little pond.
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543Y2J
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Post by 543Y2J on Aug 11, 2013 12:23:13 GMT -5
The reaction he got when he first won the World Title at Extreme Rules in the Ladder Match shows how over he was as a face and how much the fans love him. He could have and should have been the second biggest babyface behind Cena with that title reign, booked as a fighting champion exactly the same as he was in ECW with championship, successfully I shall add. People got behind him as a heel in 05 onwards, fans loved his fighting champion ECW reign in 2009 and the fans were still really fond of him when he won that first World Title. He has always had a connection with the crowd. He also got the absolute best out of One More Match both as a face and a heel, got a feud with Cena over when they weren't even on the same brand! (which mattered at the time), was a great team with Jericho and Storm with the Unamericans, has given the IC Title a lot of time with great matches and feuds etc. I am happy he is getting a spotlight on him now and I hope it continues but WWE has messed with him since 2004/2005. He can be and should bigger than he actually is and a full time main eventer, he works perfectly as face or heel and the fans care about him. That Del Rio match on SD shows he still has it and he has always brought the best out of Del Rio. Kind of off topic but on the "should he be in the HOF" discussion that has been on here before, I would say undoubtedly yes just for his tag work alone, neve rmind everything else! But I am biased on all things Christian
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Aug 11, 2013 12:27:17 GMT -5
I think Christian should've been the heir apparent to Chris Jericho's spot on the roster. No, I don't think he ever would've made it to being the main event face or heel, but he's perfect for the upper-midcard role of floating between the main event scene and making the midcard title look important.
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RIHT
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Wanted a title with "YOU'RE WELCOME!" Close enough.
Hey-yo.
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Post by RIHT on Aug 11, 2013 12:41:02 GMT -5
Physique. He's pretty ungainly. Lanky thin legs and an upper body that ranges between a little flabby and indistinct. His awful attire doesn't help either. He still dresses like a mid-card tag team wrestler. Never liked his name either. I usually hate mono-names. "Christian" tells you nothing about him. "Christian Cage" was a slight improvement I suppose in TNA. What about guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan? They're pretty "small", too. And although I prefer his old art deco logo attire, in this day and age of speedos galore, he's at least different. I can see what you said about the name, but Goldberg, Sheamus, and Batista did pretty well for themselves. The thing is, the heel spot I described for Christian [Cage] in the original post, nobody ever had that. I'd be okay if at least some rising heel fulfilled the future Christian might've had in 2005, but nobody did. That's why Cena was and is disliked so much. He never has the perfect villain to match his hero (CM Punk is an exception....6 years after Christian's downfall). Bottom line is, Christian could've been more, and WWE could've been more, too. They ruined the ushering of a brand new era with tons of characters and lots of entertainment.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 11, 2013 12:41:49 GMT -5
For me Christian is a good mechanic wrestler. He does all the moves they look decent, but he is one of the guys that when I watch, I say wow this is the weakest looking offense in the company. Nothing that he does, looks real to me. I think he is a decent character, but not a guy I'm going to give the ball too. I concur with a lot of posters above. Christian is good at what he does, better than most at the company, but to me he really just lacks something that'd put him at the top. He's not at the top of the technical wrestlers, he's not the most exciting of the flyers, he doesn't have a killer looking finisher, he's a guy who, to me, you notice how good he is when he's on, but you tend to forget about pretty quickly when someone who does excel at something else comes on, even though he's more well rounded than they are. I see a lot of people saying Christian is just average or in general, pretty good, but I don't explicitly get why people feel that way. Yes, his 2nd WWE run was par-level at best, but he was great when he cut his hair and became his own guy. He was funny on the mic, and Tomko & Christian were a funny pair. They were outlandish and the poser-douche Christian was playing would be bizarre in the main event...but that's just it. Guys like Sandow & Fandango have appeal because they have outlandish characters. Axel does not for the most part because he's just "serious" or "intense". Plus, Christian being small adds to the heel appeal in a sense. This smaller guy somehow picking up wins added to his persona as a heel. Does anyone have a specific thing that he's missing? I just want to know why Vince and posts similar to these thing Christian is good, but not good enough to be great. You have to realize that there's at least some of it that is intangible. There are guys that in doing what they do that makes them more magnetic. If we're talking about specifics, I don't think his finisher works well. It has a set up like a submission, slow where the drama is whether he will be able to lock it in, but it's an impact move that isn't flashy and doesn't look like the impact is any greater than any other move. You can't hit it out of nowhere and you can't really ramp up the impact like you can other moves. His look is just plain, for the most part. When he had the ridiculous 90's fashion it worked fine, but it was pretty boring when he became a singles competitor. But realy, like I said, there's nothing huge that he was lacking, it's just that what he has is above average at everything he does without being stellar. There's nothing he had at any point that pointed to him as top heel over other people, just because there were people who did the right things better even if they were lacking in other areas. To mix entertainment metaphors, he was the John Stockton of the WWE. He's really good, but he was never going to be a top draw in a league that had the wrestlers it did. He was never going usurp Edge and Orton as Cena's top heel opponents, and when there was a time when the roster was thin enough for him to have the main event chance, he was in TNA.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 11, 2013 12:44:00 GMT -5
I'm a huge Christian fan, but even I can admit he was never "top guy" material (unless we're talking about his TNA run).
That being said, he deserved a much better run in 2011 with the big gold belt.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Aug 11, 2013 12:50:22 GMT -5
Personally I think if you look at it from a purely business sense Christian should have made it as a top guy (I've never thought he could be on Cena's level as face of the company but he could've been a top guy). Whenever they give him something to do he gets reactions.
He got massive face heat during his run up towards the WHC against Del Rio and then (impressively) managed to turn most of the audience against him despite the sympathy he got from having the Title taken away. He faced off against Orton and got good heel heat despite the sympathy he initially received at the beginning of the feud. Tracking back to the OP who mentioned '05, he was getting very good heel heat and then he went up against Cena and was getting face heat because a lot of the fans who'd been around a while thought Christian was deserving of the WWE Championship. Whenever he is given a proper story with good promo time and people to build feuds with Christian garners reactions - whether positive or negative - and from a business point of view that should be enough for the higher ups to have pushed him.
At the moment most people are apathetic towards him and I totally get why. I'm a big fan of the guy so I love whatever he does but for people who are on the fence I can get why they're not behind him at the minute. He's had no character development since his return. He's a guy who's in a World Title feud but just wrestles. He never talks, he never gets to show any personality, he just gets to win matches. And because I love watching him wrestle that's enough for me. But the causals need something more than that - it's why Daniel Bryan wasn't over during his 2010-11 face run, he was just bland personality-wise. WWE had a real chance to re-establish him after he won the #1 contenders match, he and Del Rio should have had back and forth promo's and the usual stuff that accompanies a feud. Instead they've just wrestled each other twice and Del Rio's tried two sneak attacks (one successful, one unsuccessful). People have no reason to cheer Christian and, Ricardo attack aside, they've got no reason to hate Del Rio in this feud.
I also think somebody got it right on the first page. It's a case of Vince telling viewers that this guy is not a top talent, he's solid but he's not a top guy and them taking his word for it.
So yeah I've rambled here but basically what I'm saying is if you give Christian a chance he could be a top star. You just have him wrestle and he's not going to get over, nobody could, because you need more than that in WWE. You need personality, mic skills, charisma etc. I believe Christian has those abilities and clearly so do a lot of the casuals so yes, I do think WWE ruined Christian. But honestly I'm just happy he's still entertaining me every week. I miss him in TNA because that was the best work of his career and he was used to his fullest potential but I'm happy I at least still get to see him on my TV even if I do think he deserves better.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Aug 11, 2013 12:58:20 GMT -5
Guy was arguably the most over guy on the roster at one point. He definitely was getting some of the strongest reactions from the fans, even up against others that were considered the top faces of the company at the time. He had the tools to become a top act and be a main eventer, his TNA run showed that. And, he was charismatic and original as all get out in that short window of time, really showing he wanted it.
By all accounts, he should've been a main event star.
And, it's kind of messed up what WWE did to him instead, trying to strip every facet that had the crowd reacting to him positively and shipping him off into Smackdown's mid-card. Though by far the most messed up thing I recall them doing was post-brand trade. That was editing out the cheers he was getting at the arenas & replacing them with boos, which numerous reports flooded the IWC at the time about. How people at the tapings would mention that the crowd was going nuts for him, only to rewatch the show later that week and see it edited out in favor of boos.
Now? I'd like to think there's a chance still. Guy isn't that old, least in comparison to some of the acts that have been pushed to the top. I'm hoping he might get an Eddie style push towards the tail end of his career. But if not, I guess that's just how this goes.
It's funny, in a way, Christian was the prototype of how CM Punk's rise to the top could've gone. Or, hell, even Daniel Bryan's.
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RIHT
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Post by RIHT on Aug 11, 2013 13:02:57 GMT -5
I see a lot of people saying Christian is just average or in general, pretty good, but I don't explicitly get why people feel that way. Does anyone have a specific thing that he's missing? I just want to know why Vince and posts similar to these thing Christian is good, but not good enough to be great. You have to realize that there's at least some of it that is intangible. There are guys that in doing what they do that makes them more magnetic. If we're talking about specifics, I don't think his finisher works well. His look is just plain, for the most part. When he had the ridiculous 90's fashion it worked fine, but it was pretty boring when he became a singles competitor. I guess I can agree, but Austin just wore black, the People's Elbow is ridiculous, etc. There have been some odd characteristics in WWE that still got over. He had a great character going into 2005. He was obnoxious and a total poser, but it was funny and it got over. The Rock was similar. Hell, maybe Christian would've just naturally turned face, I don't know. I still feel there was something for WWE to work with. This was true. Yeah he was "better" in TNA, but he should've roughed it out even if he never got the push. WWE might have just used him as a matter of necessity. I still feel Christian was something more. He's no big star, hell he's like the runt of the WWE. But maybe if billed just right, he could've been that likeable, silly, home-grown favorite, or maybe billed up to a mega cool guy or something. I just feel Christian getting a push in 2005 could've done more for WWE. Maybe elevate Tomko as a monster, give Cena more variety and a good heel to play off his face, shake things up in WWE, maybe allow WWE to be more open to other guys, etc., etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 13:20:29 GMT -5
Christian has been good on the mic in the past.
He needs to get mic time, rather than just firing off a couple quick one liners once every few weeks. That'd really be all he needs.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 11, 2013 13:25:03 GMT -5
Just for the sake of going into more detail, Christian's issue isn't that he's missing a certain quality, it's that his quality isn't main-event caliber. He puts on decent matches, cuts decent promos, and can play a decent face or heel when called upon, but he's not top-tier or even noticably great in any of those categories. There are too many others on the roster that are either faster, stronger, more technically adapt, cut better promos, are more marketable, are better actors and know how to put more drama into their matches than him.
It's not that he's awful or even mediocre, he just seems ok in most areas. But I don't see anything breakout about him the way I do in guys like Cena, Bryan, Punk, Sheamus, Orton, Ziggler or even Cesaro.
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Post by CM Parish on Aug 11, 2013 13:31:05 GMT -5
"It's... Christian" probably sums him up perfectly.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 11, 2013 13:32:07 GMT -5
You have to realize that there's at least some of it that is intangible. There are guys that in doing what they do that makes them more magnetic. If we're talking about specifics, I don't think his finisher works well. His look is just plain, for the most part. When he had the ridiculous 90's fashion it worked fine, but it was pretty boring when he became a singles competitor. I guess I can agree, but Austin just wore black, the People's Elbow is ridiculous, etc. There have been some odd characteristics in WWE that still got over. He had a great character going into 2005. He was obnoxious and a total poser, but it was funny and it got over. The Rock was similar. Hell, maybe Christian would've just naturally turned face, I don't know. I still feel there was something for WWE to work with. This was true. Yeah he was "better" in TNA, but he should've roughed it out even if he never got the push. WWE might have just used him as a matter of necessity. I still feel Christian was something more. He's no big star, hell he's like the runt of the WWE. But maybe if billed just right, he could've been that likeable, silly, home-grown favorite, or maybe billed up to a mega cool guy or something. I just feel Christian getting a push in 2005 could've done more for WWE. Maybe elevate Tomko as a monster, give Cena more variety and a good heel to play off his face, shake things up in WWE, maybe allow WWE to be more open to other guys, etc., etc. You're just picking bits and pieces from other guys to try to disprove arguments, it doesn't really work that way. You have to look at the wrestler as a whole, not take out every fault someone points out and relate it to a different wrestler. A lot of those guys did things that Christian didn't, or just had advantages related to being veterans at the right time. Austin did wear black, he also just looks a lot tougher than Christian, had a gimmick the crowd ate up (who didn't want to see their bosses get their ass kicked sometimes?), and had a finisher that was poppable as hell. The People's elbow was ridiculous, but that was the set up and was part of it's appeal and it played perfectly into The Rock's character, and he is one of the more charismatic wrestlers ever whether you liked the content or not. It wasn't slow and the drama wasn't in "will he hit it?" Punk has a unique look, huge amounts of charisma, and is a fantastic technical wrestler. Bryan is much the same, only not quite as much charisma. Christian was never competing with Rock and Austin, and had he been, he wouldn't have won out. Christian was over, and still is. He was much better as a face than as a heel, but timing wise there were just people who were naturally better than him in specific areas that mattered. I don't think it has anything to do with what Vince tells us, it's just a matter of looking at him in relation to the entire company and seeing the talent he'd have to surpass to be a top guy. He's good, but I don't think he was that good at that time. He then jumped to TNA at a bad time, because had he stuck it out, he might have gotten an ME break all on his own rather than being a thank you to Edge.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Aug 11, 2013 13:32:55 GMT -5
Just for the sake of going into more detail, Christian's issue isn't that he's missing a certain quality, it's that his quality isn't main-event caliber. He puts on decent matches, cuts decent promos, and can play a decent face or heel when called upon, but he's not top-tier or even noticably great in any of those categories. There are too many others on the roster that are either faster, stronger, more technically adapt, cut better promos, are more marketable, are better actors and know how to put more drama into their matches than him. It's not that he's awful or even mediocre, he just seems ok in most areas. But I don't see anything breakout about him the way I do in guys like Cena, Bryan, Punk, Sheamus, Orton, Ziggler or even Cesaro. I respectfully disagree with you, Clash on at least two areas. Mic wise, I felt Christian was firing on all cylinders and great in the Captain Charisma period and his return in ECW. Likewise, I felt his match quality during both periods was great. And, that's because in both cases he was allowed time to actually cut a promo and allowed time to wrestle a top tier style match. Similarly, the few times he's been allowed to do either without some sort of restriction in his upper card runs on Smackdown, I felt he excelled and still showed the potential & talent he showed at both of those times. In spite of being older and arguably more banged up.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Aug 11, 2013 13:44:28 GMT -5
He could've and should've been the top heel in 05-07. I was loving his heel run in 05 and it seems like they stripped him of his uniqueness and sent him to Smackdown because he was eclipsing Cena's popularity. He showed what he could've done as the Instant Classic in TNA. His promos were amazing and he consistently put on 5 star matches. One of my favorite heel runs of all time. When they brought him back they didn't promote him at all but he was still able to carry ECW for a year. Since being back on the main roster they do nothing with him, aside from trying to bury him against Orton (despite getting one of the biggest pops in literally years at Mania) and they never let him talk. Christian's 05/TNA run is better than anything I've ever seen from Punk. Bryan, Sheamus, Ziggler, Cena and especially Orton.
The only reason he wasn't main event is because Vince never really liked him. They were always only interested in Edge and I don't think that they can't have two mega stars come from the same tag team. It's like they subscribe to an unwritten rule that there must be a Janetty. I've always thought Christian was better than Edge in every regard. WWE never gave him the same opportunities.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 11, 2013 14:07:35 GMT -5
Physique. He's pretty ungainly. Lanky thin legs and an upper body that ranges between a little flabby and indistinct. His awful attire doesn't help either. He still dresses like a mid-card tag team wrestler. Never liked his name either. I usually hate mono-names. "Christian" tells you nothing about him. "Christian Cage" was a slight improvement I suppose in TNA. What about guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan? They're pretty "small", too. And although I prefer his old art deco logo attire, in this day and age of speedos galore, he's at least different. I can see what you said about the name, but Goldberg, Sheamus, and Batista did pretty well for themselves. The thing is, the heel spot I described for Christian [Cage] in the original post, nobody ever had that. I'd be okay if at least some rising heel fulfilled the future Christian might've had in 2005, but nobody did. That's why Cena was and is disliked so much. He never has the perfect villain to match his hero (CM Punk is an exception....6 years after Christian's downfall). Bottom line is, Christian could've been more, and WWE could've been more, too. They ruined the ushering of a brand new era with tons of characters and lots of entertainment. Punk and Bryan look more solidly built though. They come across as small tough "fighters". "Golberg" and "Batista" are tough guy names, so they work. "Sheamus" works as a "he's a comical Irish clown" whimsical name. "Christian" is too non-descript.
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Post by homofojomo on Aug 11, 2013 14:18:49 GMT -5
What about guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan? They're pretty "small", too. And although I prefer his old art deco logo attire, in this day and age of speedos galore, he's at least different. I can see what you said about the name, but Goldberg, Sheamus, and Batista did pretty well for themselves. The thing is, the heel spot I described for Christian [Cage] in the original post, nobody ever had that. I'd be okay if at least some rising heel fulfilled the future Christian might've had in 2005, but nobody did. That's why Cena was and is disliked so much. He never has the perfect villain to match his hero (CM Punk is an exception....6 years after Christian's downfall). Bottom line is, Christian could've been more, and WWE could've been more, too. They ruined the ushering of a brand new era with tons of characters and lots of entertainment. Punk and Bryan look more solidly built though. They come across as small tough "fighters". Punk does not come across as a fighter at all to me - he's one of the most unathletic looking guys on the roster. I'd say IRL the Miz spanks him in the gym, ditto Christian.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Aug 11, 2013 14:19:55 GMT -5
Christian is more solidly built than "skinny fat' Punk.
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