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Post by Evilution E5150 on Aug 15, 2013 19:00:23 GMT -5
ok first of all spoilers if you have read it {Spoiler}{Spoiler}on this weeks Fatman on Batman podcast smodcast.com/episodes/more-with-morrison/ he made this point about the ending of the Killing Joke and what Alan Moore actually ment.  He’s not putting his hand on his shoulder his grabbing his neck and killing him, that’d why they laughter stops and the light goes out. They've gone over the "bridge" and now they cant go back. Batmans finally done it. And they made this canon. Its deliberately vague but when Morrison pointed it out i can’t unsee it this blew my mind and i cant stop think about it |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 15, 2013 19:03:10 GMT -5
You could interpret that it's only Batman laughing and the EEEEEE's as not being from the siren but the Joker screaming as well.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 15, 2013 19:40:00 GMT -5
It's possible, it could work really. Killing Joke has some interesting points, but it's not really Moore's best work, by his own admission.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 15, 2013 20:00:44 GMT -5
I do like how they have kinda gone away from the 'tragic' origin and made it more ambiguous; of course Moore did that too by having him be an unreliable narrator: "sometimes I remember it one way.." etc.
Which I dug when they had Ledger constantly lie about his scars in Dark Knight.
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Thaal Sinestro
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Post by Thaal Sinestro on Aug 15, 2013 20:05:25 GMT -5
Joker's henchmen and or Harley Quinn must know how to find Lazarus Pits.
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Post by The Captain on Aug 15, 2013 20:20:10 GMT -5
The thing is that Moore never really intended The Killing Joke to be canon. It was supposed to be in its own little continuity bubble separate from the rest of the DCU. That's what allowed him to do some really ballsy stuff that probably would've never been greenlit if it was intended to be a part of the DCU, like crippling Barbara and Batman apparently killing Joker.
Though Barbara's crippling and becoming Oracle worked out nicely I thought. It's still weird to see her as Batgirl again in the DCnU.
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Post by Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie on Aug 15, 2013 21:25:28 GMT -5
wat i knew that {Spoiler}batman killed the joker as soon as i read it, all those years ago, and another blatantly obvious pointer to this was {Spoiler}when the engineer/red hood became the NEW JOKER! and also {Spoiler}shooting barbara and crippling her and almost breaking gordon too ..... |
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Ultimo Gallos
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Aug 16, 2013 4:20:48 GMT -5
It's possible, it could work really. Killing Joke has some interesting points, but it's not really Moore's best work, by his own admission. I prefer it to LoEG. That is so far the only Alan Moore comic work I haven't liked. |
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Post by B'Cup x on Aug 16, 2013 4:27:36 GMT -5
I honestly thought this ambiguity was common knowledge that it could be read as batman laughing at the joke, or strangling the Joker. I've introduced this story to many people (some who want a good self contained story and some who are getting into Batman) and this is legit the conclusion everyone comes to x
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Aug 16, 2013 4:40:13 GMT -5
What's the red stuff on the ground? Blood washing away or something?
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Aug 16, 2013 8:37:55 GMT -5
Eh, it's possible, but Batman's hands are clearly on Joker's chest, and not around his neck or even his shoulders in the last panel we see them.
So either he moved them off-panel and finally snapped himself, or he didn't.
I like the ambiguity, though. There's tons of stuff you don't get or reinterpret until a 4th or 26th readthrough, and that is the mark of a great writer.
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Dat Dude
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Post by Dat Dude on Aug 16, 2013 12:53:31 GMT -5
It's possible, but since it's my favorite moment of the story I'll still believe that he was just laughing with Joker.
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Aug 16, 2013 16:50:05 GMT -5
"The Killing Joke."
Heh.
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Hawk Hart
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Post by Hawk Hart on Aug 16, 2013 16:53:43 GMT -5
He certainly made a point, a very stupid point, but a point none the less.
The way I see, Joker stopped laughing and the light went out because that was the end of the joke. Batman and the Joker have this twisted, demented, murderous, and almost friendly game of cat and mouse going. Those last few panels were the Joker accepting defeat like "Okay, this game is over now, you won Bats. Now take me to prison and we'll start this all over again."
At least, that's how I see it.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Aug 16, 2013 17:00:39 GMT -5
I cant say I agree with Morrison.
I can see what he is getting at mind, I just dont agree with his opinion here
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Post by hossfan on Aug 16, 2013 17:49:23 GMT -5
I never thought Batman killed the Joker because just a few pages earlier he says he doesn't want to beat the hell out of Joker after everything he did. There's no real impetus for him to change his mind except for the joke itself, which, after everything else Batman has gone through in his story (seeing his allies crippled and tortured), isn't much of a motive. I guess you could construe that what Joker says make him realize that they're both crazy and the only way to end the insanity is to snap his neck, but that's a pretty big about face.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Aug 16, 2013 18:07:53 GMT -5
One of the biggest stops to the idea is that they are both stood there, both sets of feet visible, then they aren't.
So if Bats does kill Joker, he kills himself to, but going over the bridge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2013 18:10:50 GMT -5
One of the biggest stops to the idea is that they are both stood there, both sets of feet visible, then they aren't. So if Bats does kill Joker, he kills himself to, but going over the bridge. Well, Morrison did say it was the final adventure of the Batman. ......killing himself too sure fits that bill very well. |
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Hawk Hart
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Post by Hawk Hart on Aug 16, 2013 18:26:41 GMT -5
wat i knew that {Spoiler}batman killed the joker as soon as i read it, all those years ago, and another blatantly obvious pointer to this was {Spoiler}when the engineer/red hood became the NEW JOKER! and also {Spoiler}shooting barbara and crippling her and almost breaking gordon too ..... Do you realize that second thing you spoilered was a flashback? That's kind of a big point. |
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Post by Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie on Aug 16, 2013 21:23:07 GMT -5
wat i knew that {Spoiler}batman killed the joker as soon as i read it, all those years ago, and another blatantly obvious pointer to this was {Spoiler}when the engineer/red hood became the NEW JOKER! and also {Spoiler}shooting barbara and crippling her and almost breaking gordon too ..... Do you realize that second thing you spoilered was a flashback? That's kind of a big point. well whattdya know ..... you're RIGHT  i honestly never read it as a flashback, and thought it was a NEW joker, and leading me to batman killing the joker already there .....leading into a new more ferocious enemy! and that would be saying something! probably because that's NOT the origin story ..... |
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