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Post by cahuette on Aug 16, 2013 22:26:00 GMT -5
Is Swagger a proof that guys like Cena or Batista or other big guys can't really be successful world champions? Because it was basically the same thing. Not really. If you look back into wrestling there's been maybe 1 successful World Champion who was small and didn't have a great body and that's CM Punk. Big guys have dominated for years and are proven draws. You say Jack Swagger I say Hulk Ho gan. Yeah, with those thousands of small guys being given the belt, the only one working being CM Punk is a proof that vanilla midgets suck balls! Lol Hulk Ho Gan.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Aug 16, 2013 22:26:42 GMT -5
And I guess that nobody cares about Bryan Danielson.
EDIT: More big men have been handed title shots and failed then small guys have. Great Khali is a former world heavyweight champion after all.
Additional Edit: Also Rhino. I guess nobody bought him as a champion even though he looks like he flat out murders people with his finisher.
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Post by Talent Name on Aug 16, 2013 22:28:41 GMT -5
And I guess that nobody cares about Bryan Danielson. EDIT: More big men have been handed title shots and failed then small guys have. Great Khali is a former world heavyweight champion after all. Or Rey Mysterio, or Eddie Guerrero ( I consider him a small guy) or Austin Aries
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Aug 16, 2013 22:30:14 GMT -5
And I guess that nobody cares about Bryan Danielson. EDIT: More big men have been handed title shots and failed then small guys have. Great Khali is a former world heavyweight champion after all. Or Rey Mysterio, or Eddie Guerrero ( I consider him a small guy) or Austin Aries Exactly, people loved Eddie as world champion. And he's fairly small anyways, only about 5'9 or 5'10.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Aug 16, 2013 22:41:16 GMT -5
Bryan Danielson is in really good shape for a guy that is billed as 5 foot 8 (Meaning he's probably 5 foot 6 or 7)
Eddie Guerrero for a short guy was in incredible shape and shouldn't even be classified as small.
Rey Mysterio is 5'5-5'6 and is in phenomenal shape for such a short guy
Rhino is 270 pounds, how is that small?
My point isn't that small guys can't draw my point is small guys with no bodies like your Chris Daniels' Chris Sabin's etc etc can't draw. People want to see guys who are in shape.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 16, 2013 22:52:45 GMT -5
Please explain Dusty Rhodes, Mark Henry, and Vader's success, SOR? Those guys weren't Body Adonis. What about Samoa Joe? No one is counting his abs and triceps. You keep pointing to Daniels and Sabin as undersized but ignore that during AJ Styles world title runs, he was the same size as Sabin. Size don't matter. No one is going to gyms and scouting bodybuilders to become wrestlers like they did in the 80's.
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Post by The Portable Stove on Aug 16, 2013 23:17:37 GMT -5
Please explain Dusty Rhodes, Mark Henry, and Vader's success, SOR? Those guys weren't Body Adonis. What about Samoa Joe? No one is counting his abs and triceps. You keep pointing to Daniels and Sabin as undersized but ignore that during AJ Styles world title runs, he was the same size as Sabin. Size don't matter. No one is going to gyms and scouting bodybuilders to become wrestlers like they did in the 80's. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, those first four are all big, which is his point. However, against his point is that I'm sure that Bully Ray is going to draw crowds, and bring in that coveted 1.1 rating that TNA has been hurting for, regardless of how he's booked. He could be booked like a complete pansy, and still be more of a contender than Chris Daniels! And so on. PS, Rey Mysterio won the WWE title in the worst shape of his life.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Aug 16, 2013 23:20:08 GMT -5
And my counterpoint is that people love the everyman. This man is the most beloved Australian wrestler of all time, Mario Milano. He is hardly a muscle man.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2013 23:27:10 GMT -5
They should've had Paul Rudd hold the title 28 days, David Arquette style.
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Post by jimmyjames on Aug 17, 2013 0:50:08 GMT -5
As others have said, it wasn't his sizze that husrt him, but other factors. First off, they expected everyone to go wild, just because he's Chris Sabin, completely forgetting that, while he 's a multiple time X-Division champion, he was best known as the second man in a tag team and had been out for almost 2 years with an injury.
Second, they completely crammed what should have been at least 6 months of storyline and matches into 2 months. His first night back he becomes the #1 contender for the X-Division champion, then wins it, then loses it, wins it back, with a chance to contend for the TNA Heavyweight chmapionship, then wins it. That doesn't work for anyone, let alone, Chris Sabin. A Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle, or The Rock, can show up and win the main belt in an organization, but a Chris a Sabin can't, let alone go through all that in such a short time.
Third, than made him look like a completely and utter chump in his matches against Bully Ray. You cannot win the TNA Heavyweight Championship, when you're getting your butt kicked for 4 minutes, have 1 minute of offense, go back to getting beat for 5 minutes, then luck out or cheat to win and expect to have in credibility.
I don't think Chris Sabin is TNA Championship material, but TNA clearly hurt him and his reign with the way he was booked and it played out. THat's why is reign failed, not because of his size, or lack of size.
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Post by Glitch on Aug 17, 2013 1:24:04 GMT -5
Sabin's title reign didn't work for the same reason Rocky Maivia's and Gail Kim's didn't work. You can't just throw us somebody and expect us to automatically cheer for them for really no reason. Sabin came back from an injury but that's really all he had. We didn't really why his skills would warrant him winning. He didn't fight his way to the top in a way that would show his skill strengths. His wins were pretty much: x-division win-->win title back from aries--> beat Bully. All in that uninterrupted order. This was made worse by the fact he won the world title by a very bad fluke.
I still get the feeling the title reign was so that tna could go "See! One of your guys was champ. Now shut up, you stupid smarks!"
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Post by SOR on Aug 17, 2013 8:39:43 GMT -5
Please explain Dusty Rhodes, Mark Henry, and Vader's success, SOR? Those guys weren't Body Adonis. What about Samoa Joe? No one is counting his abs and triceps. You keep pointing to Daniels and Sabin as undersized but ignore that during AJ Styles world title runs, he was the same size as Sabin. Size don't matter. No one is going to gyms and scouting bodybuilders to become wrestlers like they did in the 80's. Are we discussing big guys in this thread? Pretty sure I'm saying small guys can't draw and this has nothing to do with big guys. Just to humour you a little though, Despite all the wrestlers you mentioned being fat they still have size to them and it's still realistic for them to be able to go toe to toe with a John Cena or Sid or Hulk Hogan or other body guys. They are still heavyweights and it's still realistic that they can successfully fight someone and win. As for the AJ comparison: AJ Styles as TNA World Heavyweight Champion: Chris Sabin as TNA World Heavyweight Champion: AJ clearly weighs more and looks MUCH better. Chris Sabin is probably in similar shape to most of us on this message board. Even NWA World Heavyweight Champion AJ Styles looked better than Chris Sabin and that's when TNA was barely national let alone the international company it is today. As for "size doesn't matter" I believe a thread went up on this very board with someone saying Sabin shouldn't be World Champion because he's simply too small and that poster was right.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 8:45:26 GMT -5
Size doesn't matter in wrestling.
Proper writing and the performer's personality and charisma is what matters.
That's a fact proven by history.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 17, 2013 10:16:49 GMT -5
SOR, AJ was the same weight as Sabin during his time as TNA world champion. The only difference was he had more muscle tone and definition. Which if you are familiar with bodybuilding is quite common. You keep going back to looks and ignoring the booking. Wrestling is about creating their own reality. In real life, Rey Mysterio wouldn't not be able to go toe toe with Big Show or Mark Henry. But if WWE booked him as such, it will happen. Shawn Micheals was booked to go fight giants like Vader, Diesel, and Razor Ramon & be their equals. HBK barely topped 210 in his career and no one bitched about realism or his size because WWE created a reality where nothing was impossible.
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Post by percymania on Aug 17, 2013 13:20:10 GMT -5
I just found out today Sabin held the TNA World Title. I completely missed it.
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Post by BigAl on Aug 17, 2013 13:38:06 GMT -5
Sabin's title reign didn't work for the same reason Rocky Maivia's and Gail Kim's didn't work. You can't just throw us somebody and expect us to automatically cheer for them for really no reason. !" Prince Iaukea is a real good example of one. But unlike Sabin, WCW/Sullivan had Regal, Mistereo, established talents try to put him over/job to him on ppv, and the crowd wasnt into him, and no mic skills didnt help him either.
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 17, 2013 16:30:56 GMT -5
He had no chance of flopping. Ratings stay the same for tna no matter what. They also don't do monthly ppvs anymore.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Aug 17, 2013 17:56:17 GMT -5
Bryan Danielson is in really good shape for a guy that is billed as 5 foot 8 (Meaning he's probably 5 foot 6 or 7) Eddie Guerrero for a short guy was in incredible shape and shouldn't even be classified as small. Rey Mysterio is 5'5-5'6 and is in phenomenal shape for such a short guy Rhino is 270 pounds, how is that small? My point isn't that small guys can't draw my point is small guys with no bodies like your Chris Daniels' Chris Sabin's etc etc can't draw. People want to see guys who are in shape. Mysterio is like 5'4" and has been bloated the entire time he's been in the main event scene, and Rhino is like 5'9", just built like a brick shithouse. You're confusing correlation and causality, Sabin's reign didn't fall flat because of his body type, it fell short because he was booked like shit and shoehorned into the main event picture.
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Post by Welfare Willis on Aug 17, 2013 18:16:20 GMT -5
Chris Sabin points to Velvet Sky's favorite member of TNA wrestling.
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on Aug 17, 2013 18:39:24 GMT -5
SOR: I am going to dissect this a little bit, I see your point, and I.... agree (no that didn't hurt, and I am not hemorrhaging from the nose) that there has be something to serve as the 'buy in' for the audience. Sabin didn't have that. 1. His size, or lack there of. Sabin is in better shape than pretty much everyone that I see on a day to day basis, and has been for most of the time I've watched him. He isn't flabby little guy, he is athletic and is both agile and quick. What's more, it is believable, even with that knee brace, that he can pull off those moves 2. The booking. The booking of title win was, let's be honest lackluster, and his reign was... meh? I think it was filler, and that is something the big Championship should NEVER be. 3. Relating to 2, how strong he has been in matches. I don't blame others for this necessarily, as someone pointed out here, he has been a tag for awhile now, so he is used to selling that fashion. Plus overall ring rust from not being around for 2 years. Eddie Guerrero for a short guy was in incredible shape and shouldn't even be classified as small. Eddie is a small guy, he was billed at 5'10. Sure, he is a muscular guy, but he wasn't a 'power' guy by any stretch, and he played explicitly to his strengths. Do we remember how his World Heavyweight went? Where they went out of their way to make him look small, and ineffectual due to his size. He is in horrid shape, he has too much muscle mass since starting his WWE run, and it shredded his already creaky knees, or at least help contribute to it. Realistically of any wrestler Rey is the one that LEAST needed a defined/muscular upper body. And at this point he must have sold his soul to keep those things functioning. Billed weight. He is 5'10 or 5'9 I have stood next to Rhino, and I am 6 foot myself, and am taller (don't get me wrong, I always have enjoyed Rhino), he also has the presence of a guy who will rip someone's head off. I think a small guy can draw, they can get crowd reactions. This is where the storytelling and charisma part of pro-wrestling matters. The build matters. Here is, funny enough, I think they should take a queue from WCW. There are a LOT of times where they booked their smaller guys brilliantly. Jericho and Malenko's program allowed for the showcase of someone with a big personality, and the Iceman. Lance Storm's OmniBelt. Hell Flair after the plane crash, the original iteration of the four Horsemen, not exactly master physiques. Go back to other Promotions: Jimmy Jacobs being UTTERLY unhinged. Sean Michaels' entire singles career. Bret Hart. Benoit. Taz. Let's go in another direction: Kevin Steen. Your physical build can be irrelevant if it made a nonissue by the story being told. All of this has little to do whether Sabin has any cuts. This has all to do with his demonstrated ability meshing in with the narrative arc.
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