Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,190
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 22, 2013 17:38:58 GMT -5
For someone who started as a caddy than a cheerleader than a guy who walks around and introduce himself just to get hit than turns into " that guy with Vicki " to a popular guy who WWE turned face based on crowd reactions. Not at all. WWE booked him like crap. I got mad respect for him and how hard he works. Jack Thwagger on the other hand... Yep he's taken whatever he's been given and has made it work, it's arguable that he's risen further than he was meant too based mostly on the effort he puts in (obviously it's not the only factor). Hell he wasn't even meant to to be the top guy in the Spirit Squad. Looking at some of his contemporaries down the years I doubt many would have picked him as the guy that would outlast most of them and would rise above those left standing (Kennedy, Morrison, MVP, Kofi, Cody, Swagger Shelton, etc, maybe even the likes of Del Rio and The Miz). Basically he's made the most of of both his talent and opportunities and as such can't be considered a failure.
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Post by Session Moth is over on Aug 22, 2013 19:07:30 GMT -5
He is a great wrestler but he needs to improve in other areas. "The Showoff" is a terrible nickname and he needs to improve on the mic. I don't mean he's bad because he's not and he always sounds very comfortable and confident on the mic it's just most of the time he doesn't really have anything interesting to say.
His level at this moment is World Heavyweight title level. I like Dolph and he is better than Del Rio in nearly every aspect.
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Post by homofojomo on Aug 23, 2013 3:10:13 GMT -5
Dolph Ziggler as a face isn't going that great for the same exact reason The Miz as a face isn't going great. Because he's playing the EXACT same character. The mizs character changed a lot when he become a baby face - remember when he was a heel and he was the plucky underdog who noone wanted to succeed? Then he became a face and become a smug, established douche. Because the latter is far more likeable, or something.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 23, 2013 3:12:31 GMT -5
Dolph Ziggler isn't a failure.
He's as over as any "main eventer" not currently competing for a title is going to be.
Ziggler and Miz SHOULD be annoying douchebag faces with a slight comedic edge. They fit that role better than Sheamus or even Cena at times.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Aug 23, 2013 3:13:47 GMT -5
He's close. Real close. Face Dolph ain't working right now.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 23, 2013 3:19:00 GMT -5
He's close. Real close. Face Dolph ain't working right now. I think Ziggler has all the tools to be a top level face. Decent size, but small enough to play the "little man" underdog role. The goofy over the top selling, a decent look, and he's quite funny and witty when he's allowed to talk. Despite all of that, Ziggler has hit his ceiling. Not due to his own limitations, but because WWE has seemingly already found their new "The Guy" in both Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. Even if Ziggler were to win another major title, he will probably never be the "face of the company".
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Post by Marvelis on Aug 23, 2013 3:19:14 GMT -5
I always thought he was pretty over. Every time I see him come out, he always gets a pretty big reaction but maybe there's more to it than I know.
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Post by wallabylikeyou on Aug 23, 2013 3:28:28 GMT -5
I don't think he's having problems playing a face because the problems he had while he was a heel were that he sold like a face, had a face moveset and didn't often cheat or do other things heels do.
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Post by corndog on Aug 23, 2013 3:35:54 GMT -5
He's over as much as a midcard lower tier main eventer can be really. He doesn't really have too much to do at the moment though. Hopefully his involvement with The Shield will at least have him help Bryan fight the Corporation sometimes. I agree, while I feel he is getting pretty good reactions considering the situation, I think a fued with the Shield/Corporation could get him very over. This thread has also brought back to wondering why they put so much effort into Del Rio? The guy hasn't been over for two years, he's not ever going to be, yet they keep booking him strong.
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Post by Andy Martin on Aug 23, 2013 3:58:10 GMT -5
He's fine.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 4:27:36 GMT -5
I think he's pretty over for what little he's doing right now. Though there is no excuse for him not having the World title right now, besides just that Vince wants to f*** del Rio.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 23, 2013 4:52:29 GMT -5
Dolph Ziggler as a face isn't going that great for the same exact reason The Miz as a face isn't going great. Because he's playing the EXACT same character. When you turn face or heel, you need to change things. You can't just go under the assumption of "Well they liked me then so I'll just do that but against the bad guys." No. That's exactly what you do. The top from heel-to-face characters in history didn't change their base personalities or shtick at all other than embracing fans. Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, The Undertaker, HBK, Steve Austin, The Rock -- they were all the same guys, had the same attitudes, and people loved them because they were flawed, cocky or dark dudes who turned their wrath on other heels. What you're suggesting would undo everything people like about Ziggler in the the first place to "Cena" him, and create a contrived robot good guy from the scraps of what made him initially popular. It's beyond counterproductive to change what got him over. To me, it'd be like turning Mr. Perfect face in '91. And just having him be regular old Curt Hennig. Why would you do that when people like Mr. Perfect? Insanity. If anything, they just need to program Ziggler against an unlikeable heel who has the opposite of Dolph's traits. Someone straight-laced and completely un-bombastic.
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gl83
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,233
Member is Online
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Post by gl83 on Aug 23, 2013 9:11:51 GMT -5
Dolph Ziggler as a face isn't going that great for the same exact reason The Miz as a face isn't going great. Because he's playing the EXACT same character. When you turn face or heel, you need to change things. You can't just go under the assumption of "Well they liked me then so I'll just do that but against the bad guys." No. That's exactly what you do. The top from heel-to-face characters in history didn't change their base personalities or shtick at all other than embracing fans. Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, The Undertaker, HBK, Steve Austin, The Rock -- they were all the same guys, had the same attitudes, and people loved them because they were flawed, cocky or dark dudes who turned their wrath on other heels. What you're suggesting would undo everything people like about Ziggler in the the first place to "Cena" him, and create a contrived robot good guy from the scraps of what made him initially popular. It's beyond counterproductive to change what got him over. To me, it'd be like turning Mr. Perfect face in '91. And just having him be regular old Curt Hennig. Why would you do that when people like Mr. Perfect? Insanity. If anything, they just need to program Ziggler against an unlikeable heel who has the opposite of Dolph's traits. Someone straight-laced and completely un-bombastic.Curtis Axel?
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 23, 2013 9:55:58 GMT -5
Read between the lines here a bit and look at Monday's Raw. Ziggler is obviously going to be thrown in there against Ambrose at the next PPV for the US title. Henry/Show will go for the tag titles.
To me there isn't much main event level about Ziggler. Much like Miz he doesn't make for a very natural babyface. US title or IC title is really about where I would put Ziggler. As far as being a world champion, I'd say Ziggler is a complete flop though. Some of it was booking (the whole Edge feud and his title "win") and some of it was terrible luck (concussion this year).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 10:06:21 GMT -5
Not a failure but it wasn't a good turn.
There wasn't anything wrong with Ziggler turning face, but he hasn't really done anything since his turn to rally the crowd behind him.
Needs mic time.
What you could say about Ziggler's turn could almost apply across the board to Cody Rhodes too.
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Post by No Name is needed Bro Beans on Aug 23, 2013 10:32:04 GMT -5
I don't think he's a failure he still puts on great matches and is as over as any other non main-eventer right now
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 10:36:38 GMT -5
Dolph Ziggler as a face isn't going that great for the same exact reason The Miz as a face isn't going great. Because he's playing the EXACT same character. When you turn face or heel, you need to change things. You can't just go under the assumption of "Well they liked me then so I'll just do that but against the bad guys." Ziggler's still at times acting in a heelish manner, just against heels now. If anything, he needs to drop the show off character and just be an underdog babyface type of character. Same with Miz. Until then, they're not gonna do anything because the audience will be too confused. He's talking WAY more now as a face than he did as a heel, though. Vickie was his mouthpiece, when we all knew he didn't need one. Although perhaps he had a mouthpiece because if he talked, people would cheer. Miz is different - he could be an annoying heel when he talked........but he can't seem to not be an annoying face when he talks now either.
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 23, 2013 11:24:50 GMT -5
Ziggler is over. The world title still means something. It is the belt main eventers not involved with the wwe title fight for.
Honestly kind of hoping for a semi-serious brand split
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Post by Manute Bol on Aug 23, 2013 11:38:00 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I just don't see "it" in Dolph Ziggler. Maybe it's the name. Maybe it's because I've been watching him lose for all these years. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I don't see him as a top draw type guy.
Please don't crucify me for this, I know I'm in the minority and I know Ziggler is an awesome worker, I just don't see the value in pushing him any harder than he already is. I'm a big Christian fan, but I view Christian on a similar level as Ziggler; can have a good match with anyone, fans care enough about him as a supporting act, can have runs with various titles, but simply isn't one of those tippy top guys.
I see more value in pushing guys like Daniel Bryan, Alberto Del Rio, Ryback, CM Punk....maybe even Cody Rhodes, Antonio Cesaro, Roman Reigns, Dean Ambrose, and Big E Langston. I just see those guys as having more of that undefinable quality it takes to be a draw than Dolph does. I'm not saying all those guys are better in the ring or better on the mic than Ziggler is, but sometimes that's just how wrestling is.
I'm obviously in the minority on this and maybe I am missing something here. Do you guys think Dolph Ziggler has what it takes to be a legitimate top draw?
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 23, 2013 11:50:06 GMT -5
If they had him keep the belt, then gave him an hbk like run where he would beat langston, big show, mark henry, ryback, etc just getting him over maybe have him use the super kick against those guys heck yes
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