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Post by Clueless Steve on Aug 26, 2013 3:13:47 GMT -5
I didn't like how overpushed he was originally but when he became the slimy heel champion, I instantly loved him especially with Cole slowly turning for him. Overpushed? He had 2 seperate losing streak angles, one of which was when he first came in. After he beat Miz for the US Title, he did a whole lot of nothing basically until he won MITB. I'd wager to say that he lost more than he won.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 26, 2013 3:19:31 GMT -5
As if there's anything wrong with that. It's pretty obvious Vince deeply loves wrestling and focuses mostly on his company's wrestling aspects despite him wanting WWE to be seen as more than just that, so I don't see the point in attacking WWE for their business tactics there, unless one wants WWE to just be nothing more than a totally bland simulated sport. And I could understand it if Bryan's primary goal was to defend the honor of other promotions, but it wasn't. His main objective was to make Cena seem as if he was undeserving of his achievments and had things handed to him- which is not only untrue in regard to both Cena the character and the person, but also makes Bryan seem a lot less sympathetic, and actually kinda dickish. And to be fair, there are sadly a good number of indy feds whose integrity could be put up for debate. Cena's ability and effort aren't up for debate, hence why Bryan comes off so much worse with his I AM RASSLER GRR spiel. There's a lot wrong with it. Vince may love wrestling, but he's gone to great lengths to downplay what business he's in. Along with "superstars" they've been trying to shove "sports-entertainment" down people's throats as a buzzword for decades, and it's never caught on and never will. Now they've moved to just "entertainment". For someone who apparently loves wrestling, Vince is deeply reluctant to use the term to describe his business and the people in it. Calling WWE what it is doesn't turn it into nothing but a bland simulated sport. It's true that WWE does other things, like video games, merchandise, etc....but all of it derives from wrestling. If it's bland, then blame creative. Their job is to make it interesting. If Bryan was claiming that Cena was undeserving of his success, then yes that's unfair. But by nailing his colours to the mast of "sports-entertainment" so ardantly, Cena opens the door to criticism, that he represents the WWE corporate creation of "sports-entertainment", with no appreciation for the grassroots of the business. It's also ironic that the same WWE that Cena professes such love for, has proven itself time and time again to be kayfabe corrupt. They are right now, with their abuse of power towards DB. Cena has some interesting moral standards. I don't think Vince is trying to send the message that "WWE is not a wrestling company". I think he's trying to say "WWE is more than a wrestling company".
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Post by Clueless Steve on Aug 26, 2013 3:21:34 GMT -5
There's a lot wrong with it. Vince may love wrestling, but he's gone to great lengths to downplay what business he's in. Along with "superstars" they've been trying to shove "sports-entertainment" down people's throats as a buzzword for decades, and it's never caught on and never will. Now they've moved to just "entertainment". For someone who apparently loves wrestling, Vince is deeply reluctant to use the term to describe his business and the people in it. Calling WWE what it is doesn't turn it into nothing but a bland simulated sport. It's true that WWE does other things, like video games, merchandise, etc....but all of it derives from wrestling. If it's bland, then blame creative. Their job is to make it interesting. If Bryan was claiming that Cena was undeserving of his success, then yes that's unfair. But by nailing his colours to the mast of "sports-entertainment" so ardantly, Cena opens the door to criticism, that he represents the WWE corporate creation of "sports-entertainment", with no appreciation for the grassroots of the business. It's also ironic that the same WWE that Cena professes such love for, has proven itself time and time again to be kayfabe corrupt. They are right now, with their abuse of power towards DB. Cena has some interesting moral standards. I don't think Vince is trying to send the message that "WWE is not a wrestling company". I think he's trying to say "WWE is more than a wrestling company". The problem with that is they're not.
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TCM
Don Corleone
The Outcome Justifies Even the Biggest Lie
Posts: 1,887
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Post by TCM on Aug 26, 2013 3:28:26 GMT -5
I'm getting a tad tired of the beard. I know it goes with the look of him not being an archetypal "face of the WWE" but the man is under six feet and barely pushes 220. It can still be large, but trim the damn thing.
I also hate how basic his promos seem to be. "Oh I'm a WRESTLER." Yes, that's well and great, but there's no meat and potatoes to it. Play up his indy/overseas career more. Blur that line a little bit further. Reference his matches with Rollins/Cesaro/Ambrose when they were Black/Castognoli (did they face each other, had to have)/Moxley. Maybe even give a curt nod to Ohno when he was Hero. If Punk can reference ROH and give a shout out to Colt Cabana, Daniel can too with a Generico shout out. Go further into how getting rid of him now would seem like suicide compared to his first firing. Mention how BS the first firing was. I know its just starting, but simply being screwed out of the title will stop being a capable selling point, because all signs point to him being screwed multiple times this entire feud.
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Post by sunnytaker on Aug 26, 2013 8:24:01 GMT -5
when you need a A level competitor he's only a solid B+.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 26, 2013 10:08:52 GMT -5
It's an educated guess based on history. He feels strongly enough based on Bryan's 4 years of WWE work and everything he's done in that stretch that he simply is not capable of doing something to make him a fan, no different of someone being confident that they will never be an Alberto Del Rio fan. To be baffled by that is really quite silly, it's not that complex a thing to grasp. However, to say that it deserves no consideration or respect compared any other opinion is both condescending and asinine. There's no expertise involved in whether or not a wrestler entertains you, it's all taste, and whether someone chooses to write an essay every post or not doesn't affect how much worth their opinion has. No, it's not an educated guess. It was a direct blanket statement suggesting that nothing Bryan could do would ever impress him. Its a preconceived prejudice. And yes, that goes against the very definition of what an opinion is. He didn't initially say that he doesn't *think* Bryan will ever do anything to redeem himself, he said there was nothing he could do, no matter what. That destroys any semblance of logic and reason. He left no room for doubt. He spoke in absolutes. And that is not to be respected. Sorry. That's how debate works. You can't speak in absolutes and expect to be respected. If I said something like I think a certain race is inferior to another, and you asked why, and I just said "Because that's what I think!" it'd be ridiculous. No one would respect that. And if you followed that up with "What could be done to change your mind?" in an attempt to isolate the reason for that thinking and I replied, "Nothing," my opinion would be completely and unequivocally worthless. I would have provided no true insight or reason into what I seemingly believed, and I would have revealed that I have already decided I'll never accept it, no matter what. And that's absurd. No. A preconceived notion would have been formed before he ever appeared. Do we have any evidence that Buzzkill made an opinion about Bryan before he ever appeared? I don't see any. He has appeared, he's been in the company for four years, we've seen enough of Daniel Bryan as a serious wrestler, as a comedy wrestler, and what he can do in the ring to be able to form an opinion about him and make a statement about what we believes. We are smart enough to recognize an opinion without having to have our hand held and told "This is my opinion. It is what I believe. Yours may be different and that's OK." While I don't know everyone on the forum, I'm pretty sure we're not in elementary school anymore. It is taste, pure taste. People can pontificate endlessly about the pros and cons of their tastes, but that's just trying to hide the fact that it always was and always will be pure preference. No one made a list of pros and cons and compared their favorite movie, food, wrestler, tv show, book, etc. They saw it, liked it, and only sought to justify it after the fact. That's how it works.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 26, 2013 10:29:16 GMT -5
A preconceived notion is deciding ahead of time that you will never change your opinion no matter what the scenario. He can say he doesn't think, based on what he's seen, that he ever will, but to consciously decide that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Bryan can do to ever entertain him is flawed because he has not seen that situation yet. He has not judged that hypothetical yet. You can only judge what you've seen. Not what hasn't happened yet. You do not know what the future holds.
It's stubborn, absolute thinking like this which has been the root of every war, issue and problem in the entire history of the world. It is not a positive. It is short-sighted ignorance. Its the basis of blind hate and every negative result that flawed thinking brings.
That said, Buzzkill can like or dislike anything he wants right now. That's not the issue. But if you say when questioned that you do not care to ever change your mind no matter what, you can't expect to have your opinion respected. Because you have no logical base to argue from. You're just a fool babbling nonsense.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 76,768
Member is Online
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Post by Chiral on Aug 26, 2013 10:33:15 GMT -5
His beard makes his lips look too red and sore, he's always licking his lips.
That and the promo stuff are all I got.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 26, 2013 10:54:35 GMT -5
It wasn't the crux of his argument, but it was part of it indirectly, that Cena is representing something that isn't necessarily worthy of respect, even if Cena himself might be. Cena hurts himself by associating so strongly with a devotion to a corrupt organisation, and marginalising and demeaning everything else other than that organisation, which is kayfabe inseperable from the people who govern it and who make those abusive decisions. As for selecting DB, Cena really had the choice made for him. There was such a groundswell of support for DB from the WWE Universe that Cena professes to respect so much, that he couldn't really have chosen anyone else even if he wanted to. What would imply he wanted to pick someone else? Note how Cena made a grand spectacle of his decision, one could assume he wanted to put DBry on a level above the rest of the roster. DB was already on that level above, just by the reactions of the crowd. While Cena may have chosen him based on personal preference too, the weight of audience reaction made the decision virtually a foregone conclusion.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 11:17:39 GMT -5
A preconceived notion is deciding ahead of time that you will never change your opinion no matter what the scenario. He can say he doesn't think, based on what he's seen, that he ever will, but to consciously decide that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Bryan can do to ever entertain him is flawed because he has not seen that situation yet. He has not judged that hypothetical yet. You can only judge what you've seen. Not what hasn't happened yet. You do not know what the future holds. It's stubborn, absolute thinking like this which has been the root of every war, issue and problem in the entire history of the world. It is not a positive. It is short-sighted ignorance. Its the basis of blind hate and every negative result that flawed thinking brings. That said, Buzzkill can like or dislike anything he wants right now. That's not the issue. But if you say when questioned that you do not care to ever change your mind no matter what, you can't expect to have your opinion respected. Because you have no logical base to argue from. You're just a fool babbling nonsense. I finally became a Randy Orton fan in 2011, after never, ever liking him. It helped that I never said "nothing Randy Orton will ever do will make me like him". It's never too late, unless you force it to be so.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Aug 26, 2013 11:27:14 GMT -5
He should trim the beard and get a haircut. He looks much better with a trim beard and shorter hair.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 11:29:13 GMT -5
He should have found a cure for my insomnia already, but no, he has to keep me awake with his spectacular ability and best in the world talent.
Damn that filthy Bryan.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 26, 2013 11:53:31 GMT -5
He should trim the beard and get a haircut. He looks much better with a trim beard and shorter hair. I agree.
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Beast Army Ass
Hank Scorpio
What being a Philadelphia sports fan feels like.
Posts: 7,149
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Post by Beast Army Ass on Aug 26, 2013 11:57:41 GMT -5
I like the guy and his work, but I wish some aspects of his character weren't quietly dropped. I'd probably like him more if his offense had more "submission specialist"-ness to it - right now it's mostly oodles of kicks/strikes which seems off for a guy his size. Granted he does bust out holds too but it seems like not as much as before. Also character-wise I think losing the vegan/environmentally conscious aspect was a bummer. "Leaving in a Prius" is a line that I quote to this day because I found it just too funny when it happened. I get maybe it was forced because of him dropping veganism for realsies, but at this point his character is "he says yes/no a lot" and really...not that much else.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 26, 2013 12:19:51 GMT -5
A preconceived notion is deciding ahead of time that you will never change your opinion no matter what the scenario. He can say he doesn't think, based on what he's seen, that he ever will, but to consciously decide that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Bryan can do to ever entertain him is flawed because he has not seen that situation yet. He has not judged that hypothetical yet. You can only judge what you've seen. Not what hasn't happened yet. You do not know what the future holds. It's stubborn, absolute thinking like this which has been the root of every war, issue and problem in the entire history of the world. It is not a positive. It is short-sighted ignorance. Its the basis of blind hate and every negative result that flawed thinking brings. That said, Buzzkill can like or dislike anything he wants right now. That's not the issue. But if you say when questioned that you do not care to ever change your mind no matter what, you can't expect to have your opinion respected. Because you have no logical base to argue from. You're just a fool babbling nonsense. I finally became a Randy Orton fan in 2011, after never, ever liking him. It helped that I never said "nothing Randy Orton will ever do will make me like him". It's never too late, unless you force it to be so. Maybe sometimes there's someone that you just can't stand, for only the reason that you can't stand them. Like I really can't fathom a future where I'm a big AJ Lee fan. Just not my scene.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 12:33:15 GMT -5
NO! NO! NO!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 12:52:29 GMT -5
Play up his indy/overseas career more. Blur that line a little bit further. Reference his matches with Rollins/Cesaro/Ambrose when they were Black/Castognoli (did they face each other, had to have)/Moxley. Bryan and Cesaro did wrestle each other in ROH.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 26, 2013 13:59:51 GMT -5
A preconceived notion is deciding ahead of time that you will never change your opinion no matter what the scenario. He can say he doesn't think, based on what he's seen, that he ever will, but to consciously decide that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Bryan can do to ever entertain him is flawed because he has not seen that situation yet. He has not judged that hypothetical yet. You can only judge what you've seen. Not what hasn't happened yet. You do not know what the future holds. It's stubborn, absolute thinking like this which has been the root of every war, issue and problem in the entire history of the world. It is not a positive. It is short-sighted ignorance. Its the basis of blind hate and every negative result that flawed thinking brings. That said, Buzzkill can like or dislike anything he wants right now. That's not the issue. But if you say when questioned that you do not care to ever change your mind no matter what, you can't expect to have your opinion respected. Because you have no logical base to argue from. You're just a fool babbling nonsense. It's funny to me to see someone criticize someone else for how they express their opinion when they invoke what is, somehow, an even more extreme version of Godwin's Law while seriously dumbing down every problem the world has ever faced to stubbornness, like some sort of pre-school Disney lesson. There's just such a complete lack of perspective there and makes me wonder if you're going to compare my dislike of slasher movies to the Trail of Tears next. No, all that's going on is that he is making an educated guess based on an opinion that is built from his viewing of the wrestler up to now, and you're trying to make it into something larger so that you can disregard his opinion. I really have a hard time understanding why there are still adults who have to hear the words "I think" before they will recognize something someone said as an opinion and I know you're smart enough that you have reasoning abilities and can figure out what someone is saying even if they don't identify everything they say as fact or opinion or conjecture or guess. Is it hyperbole? Probably, but being able to perform some basic reasoning rather than automatically assuming the worst about someone is what makes you a mature thinker.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Aug 26, 2013 14:19:20 GMT -5
I honestly hated Bryan at first. Like people were saying he was one of the best wrestlers in the world and all I saw was a guy with no personality, so when he won Money in the Bank I wasn't too optimistic about him getting screentime. Then he started celebrating every single contout win like he had won the title all over again and I couldn't help but laugh because that was exactly what I want out of wrestling. He started taking it up to 11 and I started enjoying him a lot more. He lost to Sheamus at Wrestlemania and though I remember this place(and the internet as a whole) going nuts over it...I loved it. It cemented his character to me because it was such a cartoonish way for him to lose and he was such a cartoonish character, everything just kind of fit together. To me, it became this: Then came team Hell No, and again I loved the living hell out of it because it was genuinely funny for the most part. As far as I'm concerned, HUG IT OUT is Bryan's 3:16 moment as far as how much it affected me. It made me swear undying loyalty to that strange goat shaped man who did not at all look like a goat. With his current Cena feud, I have to admit, I kind of disliked it at first because it felt a lot like pandering with the "real wrestler" talk. Parody, Bryan? You are a f***ing cartoon, how is Cena the parody? You are the parody, EMBRACE IT! But then came his epiphany where he realized his beard was more important than getting liked by his boss(that might have been before that, not sure). That was brilliantly cartoonish in a self-aware "I'm aware this is dumb but this is MY TYPE OF DUMB AND I'LL DEFEND IT" kind of way. His strangely paced Japan-slap promo came full circle with the match and culminated in one of the best matches in recent history in terms of storytelling. So, Bryan? From someone who honestly couldn't stand you before Yesmania? Depending on what time of the day you ask me, you are my favorite wrestler.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 15:02:13 GMT -5
Bryan sucks.
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