BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Aug 28, 2013 22:30:23 GMT -5
For a one off match on Impact to boost ratings and make Bully look good before he presumably loses to AJ at BFG. I was not for 60 year old Hulk Hogan having a main event run like you are attempting to imply. I'm not a gynecologist or anything but I think Bully Ray being 42 years old categorizes him to be in his 40s.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 28, 2013 22:59:37 GMT -5
Having watched the shoot, he did have a few good points but using Daniels probably wasn't the best example. His bigger issue was that he felt that guys like Daniels and Gen Me were more worried about getting spots in that looked cool rather than what would benefit their character. He basically said "ok, that looks cool, but why did you do it?" Said that Bully Ray constantly was giving Gen Me advice but the Bucks just ignored him (now this I can believe as the Bucks had some heat with RVD and Booker and that cost them a chance to get to WWE, and they also kind of caused issues with how they handled DUSA/ROH this year)
His issue with Lance Storm (and Flair) is that they never said a thing to him face-to-face and were kind to him but then 10+ years later they go and badmouth him in blogs and stuff.
I also don't think he defended some moves as much as he explained why they were going to do it or why he wanted to, and then said the issue was that guys in creative would agree to his face and then badmouth him after it happened. Example; he mentions how Bischoff is the consultant would sign off on Vince's ideas and then say it was stupid to do what they did.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Aug 28, 2013 23:47:29 GMT -5
The people reacting to him in the crowd? Daniels gets very little reaction week to week. Guys like Magnus, AJ and Joe get bigger cheers then him. Well Chris a heel. It's a good thing faces get better cheers.
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Post by evilone on Aug 29, 2013 5:16:44 GMT -5
Russo is an idiot. He's ragging on wrestlers for wanting to put on good wrestling matches above all else? Come on. Well you have to put a match in the context right? Wrestling is choreographed unlike MMA and it needs a reason why match has happened and why it has certain outcome. There is a disconnection between characters when shooting a promo and when doing in ring work, because every character has goals and means how to get to that goal which they forget once they get into the ring. And that is the missing link and why everybody calls X-Div a spotfest. Its a spotfest because there is no context to the certain high spot move other than being a high spot. Me personally don't have a problem with that I love high spots because I love good stunts and energy it brings but... I still leave unsatisfied because they are trying to sell high spots to you as a wrestling match and most of the time high spots are not paced right. If it was a wrestling match then you would have one or two high spots because if you had more it would not be believable and it would ruin the wow factor. Now if you want to sell me the match as choreographed performing arts a la ballet and tell the story I have no problem with that because I will experience that as a dance in the ring. There were few matches like that in TNA I think in 2007, one with that Creed dude and Shelley perhaps, when they were throwing moves back and forth that were not your classic moves but it was really a dance an it was beautiful. Flow was good from hyperpace to cooldowns. I wish I could find it online to show you what I mean. When I was watching that match it didn't come to my mind that I am watching wrestling at all but more like performing arts instead. And one more thing, there was no punching and kicking in that match from what I can recall:)
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Aug 29, 2013 13:26:46 GMT -5
Having watched the shoot, he did have a few good points but using Daniels probably wasn't the best example. His bigger issue was that he felt that guys like Daniels and Gen Me were more worried about getting spots in that looked cool rather than what would benefit their character.. Wasn't that what management was telling them to do though, to make he x division "like a video game". Can't really blame the wrestlers on that front.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 29, 2013 13:43:54 GMT -5
Having watched the shoot, he did have a few good points but using Daniels probably wasn't the best example. His bigger issue was that he felt that guys like Daniels and Gen Me were more worried about getting spots in that looked cool rather than what would benefit their character.. Wasn't that what management was telling them to do though, to make he x division "like a video game". Can't really blame the wrestlers on that front. That was before Gen Me got there and Impact was still only an hour. But his point was that he wanted them to be cocky heels and they were doing all these moves that got them cheered like babyfaces.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 29, 2013 14:53:39 GMT -5
Wasn't that what management was telling them to do though, to make he x division "like a video game". Can't really blame the wrestlers on that front. That was before Gen Me got there and Impact was still only an hour. But his point was that he wanted them to be cocky heels and they were doing all these moves that got them cheered like babyfaces. So according to Vince Russo, you can do high flying moves if you are a heel. Someone wake up almost every Mexican rudo luchadore with that news. Even better, someone wake up Eddie Guerrero and Psicosis.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,461
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 29, 2013 17:22:06 GMT -5
That was before Gen Me got there and Impact was still only an hour. But his point was that he wanted them to be cocky heels and they were doing all these moves that got them cheered like babyfaces. So according to Vince Russo, you can do high flying moves if you are a heel. Someone wake up almost every Mexican rudo luchadore with that news. Even better, someone wake up Eddie Guerrero and Psicosis. Thing is there's a way to do them as a heel. You can do an ultra complicated high flying move in a way that says 'I'm a cocky guy, look what I can do that's so much better than you', or 'I'm some snot nosed punk' Generation Me came across more as 'Look at all this wicked cool stuff we can do WOOOOOOOOO!'. The best example I can think of is Shawn Michaels, he had his spots, didn't massively change up his act, but if you see him in matches against guys like Nash or the Undtertaker. Using most of the same material, he can wrestle those matches as either the plucky underdog face, or the weasly chicken heel who's finally going to get what's coming to him. This argument is really a false one, that you can have good wrestling OR characters, not both. Chris Daniels is a horrible example for Russo because he's always had a character, a personality as well as the skills. Is he too old for a main event run? Well, an extended one sure, unless he totally caught fire like Bully Ray did, which might happen with EGO.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 17:59:45 GMT -5
On the subject of Daniels and Gen Me. On this one subject, this incredibly narrow subject, I sort of agree with him? Sort of? Up until Bad Influence Daniels bugged me to no end because I knew he was super talented but he just wrestled on autopilot. He was like a really freakishly smooth robot during his matches. Barely any facial expressions and stuff unless it was specifically engineered just for him to be a wacky offended heel. If you looked at a guy like AJ, he was always talking crap on guys while he punched them as a heel. As a face he sucked in desperate, worried breaths and roared in frustration before he hit a big move. Once he came into his character a bit more Daniels got a lot better.
The Young Bucks have ALWAYS bugged me because they run through all their crazy moves but never stop to celebrate or sneer at their opponents. They just do the moves.
My favorite moment of the shoot was when he tried to defend hotshotting the belt around six times in two weeks by saying "It's realistic! How often does the UFC title change hands?" Well, besides Chris Weidman who just ended Silva's six year reign, the shortest reign is Cain Valesquez who's held the belt for over six months now.
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Talent Name
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 63,774
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Post by Talent Name on Aug 29, 2013 18:08:02 GMT -5
So according to Vince Russo, you can do high flying moves if you are a heel. Someone wake up almost every Mexican rudo luchadore with that news. Even better, someone wake up Eddie Guerrero and Psicosis. Thing is there's a way to do them as a heel. You can do an ultra complicated high flying move in a way that says 'I'm a cocky guy, look what I can do that's so much better than you', or 'I'm some snot nosed punk' Generation Me came across more as 'Look at all this wicked cool stuff we can do WOOOOOOOOO!'. The best example I can think of is Shawn Michaels, he had his spots, didn't massively change up his act, but if you see him in matches against guys like Nash or the Undtertaker. Using most of the same material, he can wrestle those matches as either the plucky underdog face, or the weasly chicken heel who's finally going to get what's coming to him. This argument is really a false one, that you can have good wrestling OR characters, not both. Chris Daniels is a horrible example for Russo because he's always had a character, a personality as well as the skills. Is he too old for a main event run? Well, an extended one sure, unless he totally caught fire like Bully Ray did, which might happen with EGO. To further add to your point look at Justin Gabriel in Nexus, the man made the 450 splash look like one of the most wicked aerial moves, its all about character and how a wrestler plays that character
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 30, 2013 13:17:24 GMT -5
Said it on the (w)rest forum, but the thing with Russo is that he's not exactly wrong in what he says many times, but he still has a disconnect between theory and practical application.
He's right that character really is everything in wrestling, from very simple, mundane characters to over the top insane gimmicks and everything in between. People need a reason to care about what you're doing, and you give that to them by portraying a character that they like, hate, find interesting, etc. and taking part in matches and feuds where they may cheer, boo, or just interestedly follow you.
Thing is, Russo always seemed to take it too far, and would inevitably reach a point where he wasn't letting enough actual wrestling happen. Even with everybody knowing it's fake, action in the ring is still what we all pay to see at the end of the day.
In an ideal wrestling setting (which I usually, and very biased-ly, define as "Ring of Honor from mid 2004 through mid 2007 or so"), you combine having characters people are interested in and great wrestling matches by having guys tell their stories in the ring. Are two guys fighting one another, but one guy is distracted by a major feud he's in against another wrestler at the time? Cool; show that the frustration from that feud might be getting to him, and might be having a bad effect on his performance in the match he's in now. Or maybe you have two ring technicians going and they just want to prove which one is better; ok, book the match to show a logical progression of moves, maybe having a signature spot being reversed multiple times early in the match, but then build up to it later and have it be a decisive turning point in the match's outcome.
I don't think Russo ever really saw the appeal in this. Maybe, to a degree, it expects too much from the audience, but I don't like thinking that way.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Aug 30, 2013 19:57:51 GMT -5
I ignored the Austin comment because he was far from generic. He had the first real anti authority angle and WWE did a lot of original stuff with him. It wasn't a deep character but it was an exciting one and you never knew what he was going to do week to week With Daniels, you know. He's going to come out, he's going to drink a Martini, He may throw the Martini in someones eyes. Comparing Austin with Daniels is insane. Austin was going to drink beers, drive a vehicle into the arena, and attack Vince. I love the man, but nothing about him was 'unpredictable.' Anyway, Russo's correct that you have to make the fans care about you; your spots should matter. But he, like SOR, underestimates the casual fan's interest in a good match. When I was eight, my favorite wrestler was Chris Benoit and his entire character was that he put on four star matches. I had no concept of workrate and his style wasn't as flashy as the cruiserweights that drew me in to WCW, but there something about his matches that made him my favorite. It's easy to see why now: he was a master of story and he showed his character in the ring, which is true with a lot talented, young workers these days. People didn't care about four star matches when wrestling was hot. Now that wrestling isn't hot, a lot of people tune in specifically for the matches and the internet (which casual fans have access to believe it or not) continues to influence how people appreciate the product. More and more people are finding their favorite characters through matches and Russo has to accept that if he wants to stay relevant.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Aug 30, 2013 20:00:39 GMT -5
You ever have that thing happen when you're so eager to make a post that you don't realize the person above you has made extremely similar points?
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