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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2013 18:59:43 GMT -5
Step up to...what? Like, I don't claim him to be the second coming of Steve Austin, I don't even claim he's a good actor. But I see this "He failed to step up" argument all the time when IMMEDIATELY after winning the title he got Kane'd. Like, how do you step up from that? What was he supposed to do while the script required him to be unable to change a tire, be put on a wheelchair and be cheated on by his best friend? The Rock himself couldn't do anything with that script. You say "IMMEDIATELY" yet the Kane attack didn't happen for a month afterward, the Cena/Eve thing two months afterward. He was attacked by Kane maybe 2 weeks after TLC and dropped the belt to Swagger the following week because he was "injured". I'd say 3 weeks is immediately.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Sept 8, 2013 19:04:39 GMT -5
You say "IMMEDIATELY" yet the Kane attack didn't happen for a month afterward, the Cena/Eve thing two months afterward. He was attacked by Kane maybe 2 weeks after TLC and dropped the belt to Swagger the following week because he was "injured". I'd say 3 weeks is immediately. Also, as far as kayfabe goes he was forced into a match he wasn't medically cleared for(even though Bryan didn't win a title off Show because of this medically cleared thing) and then never granted a rematch. Kayfabe he'd be one of the people with the most reason to be after the corporation, but yeah I know they are not going to put him in this angle. I wouldn't even ask for him having a huge part in the angle, hell I'd settle for him trying to run up to help Bryan while cartoonishly whispering to Ziggler 'HOLD ME BACK BRO.'
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 8, 2013 20:46:24 GMT -5
The problem with Ryder, IMHO, is that he was a one-trick pony that didn't have that special something to transcend to the next level when they did give him the ball. They recognized his following, put the belt on him and...it was just the same old "Woo woo woo." As much as the powers that be are at fault for not pushing him earlier to cash in on the cult following, he deserves as much of the "credit" for failing by not really stepping up. Ryder was never meant to "step up". The only stepping up Ryder really wanted at the time was to 1.) Not get fired, and 2.) Be featured regularly on RAW. It was WWE who made the mistaken assumption that Ryder's Internet fame meant that he was their next big main event star. That's why they took him out of his element and shoehorned him in every other segment with every top talent on the roster, even though they all pretty much outclassed him. Even a die hard fan like myself thought it was ridiculous how they handled Ryder. He was a small fish in a big pond swimming with even bigger fish. What ultimately killed Ryder is that they put unrealistic expectations on him. They wanted him to be the next Stone Cold or nothing, and since he wasn't THAT good, they decided to make him nothing.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 8, 2013 23:46:16 GMT -5
Is it just me who doesn't see any real upside to Zack Ryder from a creative perspective? He's decent in the ring, but his gimmick sucks and he can't act to save his life. While Ryder isn't main event or even upper midcard material, I always thought Ryder could've been pushed in a role similar to Santino's old spot, someone who's regularly featured in segments and generally protected because he's barely used to job. Like he'd get decent screen time on the main shows, but mostly wrestle on Superstars teaming with and going over his fellow low carders. WWE screwed him because they made no effort to protect his weaknesses. It's hard to protect someone's weakness when that was supposed to be the biggest strength. He cracked jokes on a web show, that's why he got the chants in the first place. That's not someone you hide from talking, that's someone you expect to be able to talk while hiding their ring work. Zack was just unfortunate that he had terrible line delivery and couldn't live up to the show he made to get himself over. He wasn't hiding his mic work to get over by wrestling, he was showcasing a personality to get over. Not letting him talk would be hiding that very thing. You can say the script was bad and it was, but there's no hiding bad delivery. Even if you're saying something stupid, you can at least say it in an entertaining way. Ryder was given a mic right after and was put there with Bryan and Punk and he had nothing to offer. It only went downhill from there. He made for a nice underdog story, but I just don't think he was ready when that work finally translated into a shot to do more than awkwardly transition between catchphrases.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 9, 2013 1:40:01 GMT -5
While Ryder isn't main event or even upper midcard material, I always thought Ryder could've been pushed in a role similar to Santino's old spot, someone who's regularly featured in segments and generally protected because he's barely used to job. Like he'd get decent screen time on the main shows, but mostly wrestle on Superstars teaming with and going over his fellow low carders. WWE screwed him because they made no effort to protect his weaknesses. It's hard to protect someone's weakness when that was supposed to be the biggest strength. He cracked jokes on a web show, that's why he got the chants in the first place. That's not someone you hide from talking, that's someone you expect to be able to talk while hiding their ring work. Zack was just unfortunate that he had terrible line delivery and couldn't live up to the show he made to get himself over. He wasn't hiding his mic work to get over by wrestling, he was showcasing a personality to get over. Not letting him talk would be hiding that very thing. You can say the script was bad and it was, but there's no hiding bad delivery. Even if you're saying something stupid, you can at least say it in an entertaining way. Ryder was given a mic right after and was put there with Bryan and Punk and he had nothing to offer. It only went downhill from there. He made for a nice underdog story, but I just don't think he was ready when that work finally translated into a shot to do more than awkwardly transition between catchphrases. Every Ryder thread that pops up, you always bring up the "He got over by talking" argument. His biggest strength was cracking jokes on a webshow. Then THAT'S what they should've had him doing. He should've been doing comedy segments backstage on RAW. Or even move him to the SmackDown brand or NXT Redemption where the shows' taped nature could help him out. Why did WWE have to put Ryder with Punk and Bryan when they are way out of his league? When the three of them were in the ring together, I thought to myself, "One of these things is not like the others". The two World Champions should've had their moment, and Ryder should have gotten a separate backstage interview or even a PiP promo or something where he didn't necessarily have to be "serious" with them. The underdog story and the buildup to the U.S. Title win was decent (despite the fact that they barely interacted due to Ziggler being swallowed up into the HHH/Punk/Awesome Truth/Nash clusterf*** and being used as a JTTS), but the main issue is that WWE tried to force Ryder into an uppercard role when he was nowhere near that level and needlessly exposed his limitations. He would've been serviceable as a featured comedy act who could do the same things he did on the webshow. Is Ryder a bad actor and talker? Yes. Is Ryder the best in-rng worker? No. His moveset is very bland and generic, but he does know what he's doing within his limited repertoire, and at least he isn't a sloppy botch machine. But what people tend to forget is that the gist of Ryder's character is basically admitting that he sucks and taking the piss out of himself for it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 5:41:28 GMT -5
Zack Ryder jokes and lines on Z!TLIS and Zack Ryder jokes and lines on WWE TV were in comparison like Richard Pryor's standup to John Cena's poop jokes.
The material he used for himself on Youtube and what he was given on Raw's wasn't even close. They should've let him be more his YouTube self, someone who actually talks and has funny lines that aren't only WWWYKI and Are You Serious Bro. But no, lets have a "hipster" writer come up with dog shit and then wonder why it doesn't work.
While on YouTube he was a mixture of sarcastic and ironic lines along with some slapstick comedy, on TV he was just a mentally challenged Jersey Shore guy who's unable to say anything other than his two catchphrases.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2013 6:53:21 GMT -5
It's hard to protect someone's weakness when that was supposed to be the biggest strength. He cracked jokes on a web show, that's why he got the chants in the first place. That's not someone you hide from talking, that's someone you expect to be able to talk while hiding their ring work. Zack was just unfortunate that he had terrible line delivery and couldn't live up to the show he made to get himself over. He wasn't hiding his mic work to get over by wrestling, he was showcasing a personality to get over. Not letting him talk would be hiding that very thing. You can say the script was bad and it was, but there's no hiding bad delivery. Even if you're saying something stupid, you can at least say it in an entertaining way. Ryder was given a mic right after and was put there with Bryan and Punk and he had nothing to offer. It only went downhill from there. He made for a nice underdog story, but I just don't think he was ready when that work finally translated into a shot to do more than awkwardly transition between catchphrases. Every Ryder thread that pops up, you always bring up the "He got over by talking" argument. His biggest strength was cracking jokes on a webshow. Then THAT'S what they should've had him doing. He should've been doing comedy segments backstage on RAW. Or even move him to the SmackDown brand or NXT Redemption where the shows' taped nature could help him out. Why did WWE have to put Ryder with Punk and Bryan when they are way out of his league? When the three of them were in the ring together, I thought to myself, "One of these things is not like the others". The two World Champions should've had their moment, and Ryder should have gotten a separate backstage interview or even a PiP promo or something where he didn't necessarily have to be "serious" with them. The underdog story and the buildup to the U.S. Title win was decent (despite the fact that they barely interacted due to Ziggler being swallowed up into the HHH/Punk/Awesome Truth/Nash clusterf*** and being used as a JTTS), but the main issue is that WWE tried to force Ryder into an uppercard role when he was nowhere near that level and needlessly exposed his limitations. He would've been serviceable as a featured comedy act who could do the same things he did on the webshow. Is Ryder a bad actor and talker? Yes. Is Ryder the best in-rng worker? No. His moveset is very bland and generic, but he does know what he's doing within his limited repertoire, and at least he isn't a sloppy botch machine. But what people tend to forget is that the gist of Ryder's character is basically admitting that he sucks and taking the piss out of himself for it. I say it because every thread you try to perpetuate this idea that WWE set out to screw him for not being able to do what he was doing on his web show in front of a live audience. You keep blaming WWE for not hiding his weakness, while ignoring that, you know, that was actually supposed to be his strength. He's an average ring guy who got over because he was able to make the fact that he was't being pushed into a joke, but what happened once he got pushed? You lose half the character and are left with a guy who basically played off his friends (who they aren't going to hire to make Ryder look good) and tried to come up with "creative" ways to incorporate his catchphrases. If they were truly going to hide his weakness, they wouldn't push him at all, they'd let him do his webshow where he can make drawing money jokes and push out merch for him. As soon as you give him a live mic, even on Smackdown, and take away the people he played off of, his entire gimmick starts to go south. Why'd they put him out there with Punk and Bryan? They put him out there because he had a similar story, he was the fan favorite who finally got a shot. He made the show to be able to have that moment, he said it himself. He wanted a push or to be fired. You want to act like it was this malicious thing they did to show he couldn't talk worth a damn, but that's ridiculous, they put him out there because they thought he could work with them (maybe they never saw an episode of his show, I don't know). And maybe if a guy can't talk into a mic when he doesn't have magic of editing to make himself look decent, then he should have spending more time working on one of the core elements of being a pro wrestler, and less complaining about not being pushed. Because of all the things that a guy his size should be able to do to deserve a push, talking is one of them. Zack Ryder jokes and lines on Z!TLIS and Zack Ryder jokes and lines on WWE TV were in comparison like Richard Pryor's standup to John Cena's poop jokes. The material he used for himself on Youtube and what he was given on Raw's wasn't even close. They should've let him be more his YouTube self, someone who actually talks and has funny lines that aren't only WWWYKI and Are You Serious Bro. But no, lets have a "hipster" writer come up with dog shit and then wonder why it doesn't work. While on YouTube he was a mixture of sarcastic and ironic lines along with some slapstick comedy, on TV he was just a mentally challenged Jersey Shore guy who's unable to say anything other than his two catchphrases. Let's not go overboard and pretend it was more that it was. He made smarky in-jokes that ceased to be true when he did get a push and tried to work in new creative ways to awkwardly say his catchphrase. That was his shtick. What he was missing was the fact that he couldn't bring his friends (particularly his dad) to make him look good. Without them, Ryder's show really loses a lot of it's luster. I go back and watch the old episodes (before the WWE put it on their channel) and I don't see a guy who was remarkably different from how he delivered lines on Raw. I do see someone who was a great talker, but that's Scott Stanford. He and Zack's dad were the best part of the show. Ryder himself was always awkward and relied heavily on snarky in-jokes that only work based on the idea that it's a web show that WWE doesn't care about enough to see.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 7:42:59 GMT -5
Lets not go overboard the other way either. Give credit where credit is due. It had nothing to do just with snarky jokes. The whole concept was a hit and could've easily been translated to TV.
Zack in his show is like The Rock compared to Rocky Maivia on WWE TV in terms of character depth. He's not even the same character on Youtube and on TV. That was noticable each week when you saw him landing flat on Raw and then killing it on Z!TLIS.
His show had character depth and progressing storylines that weren't the same "Oh look I'm teaming with Randy. Woo woo woo". Maybe it's the platform, but I feel that if WWE tried even a bit they could have the same success on TV.
It's not that only Zack was a real character, take Ziggler. He showed more character depth within two Ask The Heels than in 2 years before that on WWE TV. The feud they had on the show and the final homemade video package before TLC blew out anything that has been done on TV. It's not even funny how much people got attached to that match because of YouTube. If this was a TV only feud, no one would give two shits about Twitter petition and Big Johnny, and whatever else happened on TV.
His dad and Big O were the supporting cast and they were the recurring characters that would pop up once in a while, same with Stanford, but they never carried the show. Saying that is just silly because there would be weeks without one of them on the show.
Ryder made the show a success, and WWE failed to translate it to TV.
He could've been the Kofi Kingston of US title belt for years and have people actually care about him (unlike Kofi) and the belt with a slight effort invested by WWE.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2013 10:12:50 GMT -5
Lets not go overboard the other way either. Give credit where credit is due. It had nothing to do just with snarky jokes. The whole concept was a hit and could've easily been translated to TV. Zack in his show is like The Rock compared to Rocky Maivia on WWE TV in terms of character depth. He's not even the same character on Youtube and on TV. That was noticable each week when you saw him landing flat on Raw and then killing it on Z!TLIS. His show had character depth and progressing storylines that weren't the same "Oh look I'm teaming with Randy. Woo woo woo". Maybe it's the platform, but I feel that if WWE tried even a bit they could have the same success on TV. It's not that only Zack was a real character, take Ziggler. He showed more character depth within two Ask The Heels than in 2 years before that on WWE TV. The feud they had on the show and the final homemade video package before TLC blew out anything that has been done on TV. It's not even funny how much people got attached to that match because of YouTube. If this was a TV only feud, no one would give two shits about Twitter petition and Big Johnny, and whatever else happened on TV. His dad and Big O were the supporting cast and they were the recurring characters that would pop up once in a while, same with Stanford, but they never carried the show. Saying that is just silly because there would be weeks without one of them on the show. Ryder made the show a success, and WWE failed to translate it to TV. He could've been the Kofi Kingston of US title belt for years and have people actually care about him (unlike Kofi) and the belt with a slight effort invested by WWE. I think you're way overexagerating how good his delivery was on the show, it was different because he had total control, yes, but he always had that goofy delivery. It wasn't Rock vs. Rocky Maivia, it was Ryder when he has complete control vs. Ryder when he has little control. The difference wasn't that he couldn't make the same in-jokes and use his friends and dad and have the recurring segments, which you wouldn't expect to be on TV anyways,and he couldn't edit himself and was expected to actually cut promos in one take. And even if Stanford and Zack's Dad didn't appear every week, when they did, they were typically the best part of the show (was never a fan of Big O or Chi) Ziggler was great on the show, but can't credit Ryder for that. Ryder live was what he appeared to be, he didn't have complete control and the ability to edit his own footage to cover up his flaws, and he fell flat. The material he was given wasn't great, no, but compare that to Santino, who could somehow make really stupid things funny because he's a good comedic talker. Ryder just has an awkward delivery that couldn't translate, but be honet, his show was never really a work of comedic genius here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 10:35:45 GMT -5
Lets not go overboard the other way either. Give credit where credit is due. It had nothing to do just with snarky jokes. The whole concept was a hit and could've easily been translated to TV. Zack in his show is like The Rock compared to Rocky Maivia on WWE TV in terms of character depth. He's not even the same character on Youtube and on TV. That was noticable each week when you saw him landing flat on Raw and then killing it on Z!TLIS. His show had character depth and progressing storylines that weren't the same "Oh look I'm teaming with Randy. Woo woo woo". Maybe it's the platform, but I feel that if WWE tried even a bit they could have the same success on TV. It's not that only Zack was a real character, take Ziggler. He showed more character depth within two Ask The Heels than in 2 years before that on WWE TV. The feud they had on the show and the final homemade video package before TLC blew out anything that has been done on TV. It's not even funny how much people got attached to that match because of YouTube. If this was a TV only feud, no one would give two shits about Twitter petition and Big Johnny, and whatever else happened on TV. His dad and Big O were the supporting cast and they were the recurring characters that would pop up once in a while, same with Stanford, but they never carried the show. Saying that is just silly because there would be weeks without one of them on the show. Ryder made the show a success, and WWE failed to translate it to TV. He could've been the Kofi Kingston of US title belt for years and have people actually care about him (unlike Kofi) and the belt with a slight effort invested by WWE. I think you're way overexagerating how good his delivery was on the show, it was different because he had total control, yes, but he always had that goofy delivery. It wasn't Rock vs. Rocky Maivia, it was Ryder when he has complete control vs. Ryder when he has little control. The difference wasn't that he couldn't make the same in-jokes and use his friends and dad and have the recurring segments, which you wouldn't expect to be on TV anyways,and he couldn't edit himself and was expected to actually cut promos in one take. And even if Stanford and Zack's Dad didn't appear every week, when they did, they were typically the best part of the show (was never a fan of Big O or Chi) Ziggler was great on the show, but can't credit Ryder for that. Ryder live was what he appeared to be, he didn't have complete control and the ability to edit his own footage to cover up his flaws, and he fell flat. The material he was given wasn't great, no, but compare that to Santino, who could somehow make really stupid things funny because he's a good comedic talker. Ryder just has an awkward delivery that couldn't translate, but be honet, his show was never really a work of comedic genius here. You're so off it's not even funny. Not my problem, there's no point of trying to prove you otherwise when you have set it in your mind and aren't open to view things from a different perspective. Things usually aren't black and white, wrestlers aren't measured Stone Cold or Braden Walker, there's so much in between. Have a nice day.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 9, 2013 10:39:25 GMT -5
While on YouTube he was a mixture of sarcastic and ironic lines along with some slapstick comedy, on TV he was just a mentally challenged Jersey Shore guy who's unable to say anything other than his two catchphrases. Pretty much. The image in your signature was the defining moment. The guard had changed. We had Punk, Bryan and Ryder standing out there. A new day was upon the WWE. And all he could do was break out the same tired "Woo woo woo you know it." That was the moment he needed to step up, and it just didn't happen.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2013 10:42:53 GMT -5
I think you're way overexagerating how good his delivery was on the show, it was different because he had total control, yes, but he always had that goofy delivery. It wasn't Rock vs. Rocky Maivia, it was Ryder when he has complete control vs. Ryder when he has little control. The difference wasn't that he couldn't make the same in-jokes and use his friends and dad and have the recurring segments, which you wouldn't expect to be on TV anyways,and he couldn't edit himself and was expected to actually cut promos in one take. And even if Stanford and Zack's Dad didn't appear every week, when they did, they were typically the best part of the show (was never a fan of Big O or Chi) Ziggler was great on the show, but can't credit Ryder for that. Ryder live was what he appeared to be, he didn't have complete control and the ability to edit his own footage to cover up his flaws, and he fell flat. The material he was given wasn't great, no, but compare that to Santino, who could somehow make really stupid things funny because he's a good comedic talker. Ryder just has an awkward delivery that couldn't translate, but be honet, his show was never really a work of comedic genius here. You're so off it's not even funny. Not my problem, there's no point of trying to prove you otherwise when you have set it in your mind and aren't open to view things from a different perspective. Things usually aren't black and white, wrestlers aren't measured Stone Cold or Braden Walker, there's so much in between. Have a nice day. I never argued that things were black and white, and all your attempts to "open my mind" were "he was super awesome in his show and got nothing at all to work with on TV." Examples would be more persuasive, because I've watched quite a few episodes of his show and never, ever saw the hidden genius in his work. The most entertaining things always involved other people. But I guess it's easier to argue strawmen then to discuss something with someone who has a different view.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 10:46:12 GMT -5
While on YouTube he was a mixture of sarcastic and ironic lines along with some slapstick comedy, on TV he was just a mentally challenged Jersey Shore guy who's unable to say anything other than his two catchphrases. Pretty much. The image in your signature was the defining moment. The guard had changed. We had Punk, Bryan and Ryder standing out there. A new day was upon the WWE. And all he could do was break out the same tired "Woo woo woo you know it." That was the moment he needed to step up, and it just didn't happen. His championship speech the Raw after TLC in Philly: "I woke up this morning and called my dad to ask him 'Is this really happening', and he said Woo Woo Woo You Know It." At the same time Punk & Bryan talked about Murphy Rec Center and battling their way to the top. Why not let Ryder have the same and thank the fans or say the line he used in every interview about getting fired or getting noticed, his struggle? How he was a nobody a year ago, and now he's in the ring with two world champions...
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 9, 2013 11:44:35 GMT -5
Every Ryder thread that pops up, you always bring up the "He got over by talking" argument. His biggest strength was cracking jokes on a webshow. Then THAT'S what they should've had him doing. He should've been doing comedy segments backstage on RAW. Or even move him to the SmackDown brand or NXT Redemption where the shows' taped nature could help him out. Why did WWE have to put Ryder with Punk and Bryan when they are way out of his league? When the three of them were in the ring together, I thought to myself, "One of these things is not like the others". The two World Champions should've had their moment, and Ryder should have gotten a separate backstage interview or even a PiP promo or something where he didn't necessarily have to be "serious" with them. The underdog story and the buildup to the U.S. Title win was decent (despite the fact that they barely interacted due to Ziggler being swallowed up into the HHH/Punk/Awesome Truth/Nash clusterf*** and being used as a JTTS), but the main issue is that WWE tried to force Ryder into an uppercard role when he was nowhere near that level and needlessly exposed his limitations. He would've been serviceable as a featured comedy act who could do the same things he did on the webshow. Is Ryder a bad actor and talker? Yes. Is Ryder the best in-rng worker? No. His moveset is very bland and generic, but he does know what he's doing within his limited repertoire, and at least he isn't a sloppy botch machine. But what people tend to forget is that the gist of Ryder's character is basically admitting that he sucks and taking the piss out of himself for it. I say it because every thread you try to perpetuate this idea that WWE set out to screw him for not being able to do what he was doing on his web show in front of a live audience. You keep blaming WWE for not hiding his weakness, while ignoring that, you know, that was actually supposed to be his strength. He's an average ring guy who got over because he was able to make the fact that he was't being pushed into a joke, but what happened once he got pushed? You lose half the character and are left with a guy who basically played off his friends (who they aren't going to hire to make Ryder look good) and tried to come up with "creative" ways to incorporate his catchphrases. If they were truly going to hide his weakness, they wouldn't push him at all, they'd let him do his webshow where he can make drawing money jokes and push out merch for him. As soon as you give him a live mic, even on Smackdown, and take away the people he played off of, his entire gimmick starts to go south. Why'd they put him out there with Punk and Bryan? They put him out there because he had a similar story, he was the fan favorite who finally got a shot. He made the show to be able to have that moment, he said it himself. He wanted a push or to be fired. You want to act like it was this malicious thing they did to show he couldn't talk worth a damn, but that's ridiculous, they put him out there because they thought he could work with them (maybe they never saw an episode of his show, I don't know). And maybe if a guy can't talk into a mic when he doesn't have magic of editing to make himself look decent, then he should have spending more time working on one of the core elements of being a pro wrestler, and less complaining about not being pushed. Because of all the things that a guy his size should be able to do to deserve a push, talking is one of them. Let's not go overboard and pretend it was more that it was. He made smarky in-jokes that ceased to be true when he did get a push and tried to work in new creative ways to awkwardly say his catchphrase. That was his shtick. What he was missing was the fact that he couldn't bring his friends (particularly his dad) to make him look good. Without them, Ryder's show really loses a lot of it's luster. I go back and watch the old episodes (before the WWE put it on their channel) and I don't see a guy who was remarkably different from how he delivered lines on Raw. I do see someone who was a great talker, but that's Scott Stanford. He and Zack's dad were the best part of the show. Ryder himself was always awkward and relied heavily on snarky in-jokes that only work based on the idea that it's a web show that WWE doesn't care about enough to see. Of course we shouldn't expect WWE to sign Big O to a contract or to hire Chiappetta or "Mr. Ryder" to make Zack look good. However, Scott Stanford, the other constant character on the show actually IS a WWE employee, who for some odd reason isn't even on commentary anymore. Why not start featuring Stanford more so that he could be the one constant link between Ryder on TV and Ryder on the show? If they couldn't hire his friends, why not push a handful of the many directionless midcard talents on the roster to be his new on-screen friends? Curt Hawkins was right there, bro. Or put him with Alex Riley, who could be the charismatic straight man to Ryder. Or why not let him hang around Ted DiBiase Jr, who was enjoying a similar push at the same time on SmackDown? Ryder's webshow and Ted's tailgate parties would've gone hand in hand. Down the line, Z!TLIS would still have The Where's Trent segments, which were pretty damn good as well. Why did they not let Trent return as Zack's new tag team partner instead of letting him be wasted and then fired? All of these would've been good directions to take Ryder in instead of taking him out of his element, and then letting him flounder, and would've helped a lot of other superstars out as well. Like I said, they wanted him to be the next big thing or nothing and did not give him a proper middle ground. And if he can't talk on a mic, don't let him talk on the mic. He got over by doing skits. Let him do backstage skits with other midcarders.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2013 12:07:23 GMT -5
I say it because every thread you try to perpetuate this idea that WWE set out to screw him for not being able to do what he was doing on his web show in front of a live audience. You keep blaming WWE for not hiding his weakness, while ignoring that, you know, that was actually supposed to be his strength. He's an average ring guy who got over because he was able to make the fact that he was't being pushed into a joke, but what happened once he got pushed? You lose half the character and are left with a guy who basically played off his friends (who they aren't going to hire to make Ryder look good) and tried to come up with "creative" ways to incorporate his catchphrases. If they were truly going to hide his weakness, they wouldn't push him at all, they'd let him do his webshow where he can make drawing money jokes and push out merch for him. As soon as you give him a live mic, even on Smackdown, and take away the people he played off of, his entire gimmick starts to go south. Why'd they put him out there with Punk and Bryan? They put him out there because he had a similar story, he was the fan favorite who finally got a shot. He made the show to be able to have that moment, he said it himself. He wanted a push or to be fired. You want to act like it was this malicious thing they did to show he couldn't talk worth a damn, but that's ridiculous, they put him out there because they thought he could work with them (maybe they never saw an episode of his show, I don't know). And maybe if a guy can't talk into a mic when he doesn't have magic of editing to make himself look decent, then he should have spending more time working on one of the core elements of being a pro wrestler, and less complaining about not being pushed. Because of all the things that a guy his size should be able to do to deserve a push, talking is one of them. Let's not go overboard and pretend it was more that it was. He made smarky in-jokes that ceased to be true when he did get a push and tried to work in new creative ways to awkwardly say his catchphrase. That was his shtick. What he was missing was the fact that he couldn't bring his friends (particularly his dad) to make him look good. Without them, Ryder's show really loses a lot of it's luster. I go back and watch the old episodes (before the WWE put it on their channel) and I don't see a guy who was remarkably different from how he delivered lines on Raw. I do see someone who was a great talker, but that's Scott Stanford. He and Zack's dad were the best part of the show. Ryder himself was always awkward and relied heavily on snarky in-jokes that only work based on the idea that it's a web show that WWE doesn't care about enough to see. Of course we shouldn't expect WWE to sign Big O to a contract or to hire Chiappetta or "Mr. Ryder" to make Zack look good. However, Scott Stanford, the other constant character on the show actually IS a WWE employee, who for some odd reason isn't even on commentary anymore. Why not start featuring Stanford more so that he could be the one constant link between Ryder on TV and Ryder on the show? If they couldn't hire his friends, why not push a handful of the many directionless midcard talents on the roster to be his new on-screen friends? Curt Hawkins was right there, bro. Or put him with Alex Riley, who could be the charismatic straight man to Ryder. Or why not let him hang around Ted DiBiase Jr, who was enjoying a similar push at the same time on SmackDown? Ryder's webshow and Ted's tailgate parties would've gone hand in hand. Down the line, Z!TLIS would still have The Where's Trent segments, which were pretty damn good as well. Why did they not let Trent return as Zack's new tag team partner instead of letting him be wasted and then fired? All of these would've been good directions to take Ryder in instead of taking him out of his element, and then letting him flounder, and would've helped a lot of other superstars out as well. Like I said, they wanted him to be the next big thing or nothing and did not give him a proper middle ground. And if he can't talk on a mic, don't let him talk on the mic. He got over by doing skits. Let him do backstage skits with other midcarders. He'll have to talk at some point, unless you just have him make strange facial expressions like he did during that segment with Vince and... Actually, you know, that was hilarious. If Ryder became the new Ron Simmons and just did that, it'd probably be awesome.
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Post by Larryhausen on Sept 9, 2013 12:53:56 GMT -5
I say it because every thread you try to perpetuate this idea that WWE set out to screw him for not being able to do what he was doing on his web show in front of a live audience. You keep blaming WWE for not hiding his weakness, while ignoring that, you know, that was actually supposed to be his strength. He's an average ring guy who got over because he was able to make the fact that he was't being pushed into a joke, but what happened once he got pushed? You lose half the character and are left with a guy who basically played off his friends (who they aren't going to hire to make Ryder look good) and tried to come up with "creative" ways to incorporate his catchphrases. If they were truly going to hide his weakness, they wouldn't push him at all, they'd let him do his webshow where he can make drawing money jokes and push out merch for him. As soon as you give him a live mic, even on Smackdown, and take away the people he played off of, his entire gimmick starts to go south. Why'd they put him out there with Punk and Bryan? They put him out there because he had a similar story, he was the fan favorite who finally got a shot. He made the show to be able to have that moment, he said it himself. He wanted a push or to be fired. You want to act like it was this malicious thing they did to show he couldn't talk worth a damn, but that's ridiculous, they put him out there because they thought he could work with them (maybe they never saw an episode of his show, I don't know). And maybe if a guy can't talk into a mic when he doesn't have magic of editing to make himself look decent, then he should have spending more time working on one of the core elements of being a pro wrestler, and less complaining about not being pushed. Because of all the things that a guy his size should be able to do to deserve a push, talking is one of them. Let's not go overboard and pretend it was more that it was. He made smarky in-jokes that ceased to be true when he did get a push and tried to work in new creative ways to awkwardly say his catchphrase. That was his shtick. What he was missing was the fact that he couldn't bring his friends (particularly his dad) to make him look good. Without them, Ryder's show really loses a lot of it's luster. I go back and watch the old episodes (before the WWE put it on their channel) and I don't see a guy who was remarkably different from how he delivered lines on Raw. I do see someone who was a great talker, but that's Scott Stanford. He and Zack's dad were the best part of the show. Ryder himself was always awkward and relied heavily on snarky in-jokes that only work based on the idea that it's a web show that WWE doesn't care about enough to see. Of course we shouldn't expect WWE to sign Big O to a contract or to hire Chiappetta or "Mr. Ryder" to make Zack look good. However, Scott Stanford, the other constant character on the show actually IS a WWE employee, who for some odd reason isn't even on commentary anymore. Why not start featuring Stanford more so that he could be the one constant link between Ryder on TV and Ryder on the show? If they couldn't hire his friends, why not push a handful of the many directionless midcard talents on the roster to be his new on-screen friends? Curt Hawkins was right there, bro. Or put him with Alex Riley, who could be the charismatic straight man to Ryder. Or why not let him hang around Ted DiBiase Jr, who was enjoying a similar push at the same time on SmackDown? Ryder's webshow and Ted's tailgate parties would've gone hand in hand. Down the line, Z!TLIS would still have The Where's Trent segments, which were pretty damn good as well. Why did they not let Trent return as Zack's new tag team partner instead of letting him be wasted and then fired? All of these would've been good directions to take Ryder in instead of taking him out of his element, and then letting him flounder, and would've helped a lot of other superstars out as well. Like I said, they wanted him to be the next big thing or nothing and did not give him a proper middle ground. And if he can't talk on a mic, don't let him talk on the mic. He got over by doing skits. Let him do backstage skits with other midcarders. If you can't talk in front of a live crowd, you better be a wrestling machine. If you're not a wrestling machine, you better be able to cut a live promo. If you can't do either in front of a crowd, sorry. There's other guys on the roster who cando your job way better than you can. You're lucky to still be employed.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 9, 2013 13:06:09 GMT -5
However, Scott Stanford, the other constant character on the show actually IS a WWE employee, who for some odd reason isn't even on commentary anymore. Why not start featuring Stanford more so that he could be the one constant link between Ryder on TV and Ryder on the show? . Stanford has another full time job, he's the anchor for the news at 5 and 10pm in New York currently and before that he was also the sports anchor which is why they use him sparingly.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 9, 2013 13:31:42 GMT -5
Ryder failed because he's not very good. The booking did him no favors after he showed himself to be a one trick pony sure, but he wasn't bringing anything to the table either.
And personally, thought Long Island Story sucked.
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Post by grimbiniho on Sept 9, 2013 17:40:25 GMT -5
I want to know what that tease that Z Long Island story was coming back was all about. In a shocking twist that never went anywhere.
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Post by Larryhausen on Sept 9, 2013 22:45:30 GMT -5
I usually try to be positive and only talk about the things I enjoy, but you know what? F it. I would be all for Trips going for a Scorched Earth Policy and cutting guys like Ryder, Riley, Tatsu, Kidd, etc. they've been around to long to really be believably repackaged. Cut em, let them gain some more experience on the indies, then give them another shot in two-four years. The undercard and NXT is stacked with guys who can do their jobs way better than they can.
And yes, I have two friends in NXT who can wrestle their asses off, as well as speak in front of a crowd. I'd love for them to get a chance.
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