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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 27, 2013 8:50:09 GMT -5
HBK had a very similar heel turn, when he through Jennety through the glass. It had been done before. Big Show RUINED the heel turn. Somehow him crying keeps leading to him becoming a bad guy. I don't recall that. I recall Jannety jumping through the window to escape however Will you stop!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 8:52:46 GMT -5
HBK had a very similar heel turn, when he through Jennety through the glass. It had been done before. Big Show RUINED the heel turn. Somehow him crying keeps leading to him becoming a bad guy. I don't recall that. I recall Jannety jumping through the window to escape however Never got why HBK was the heel when Jannetty was the coward, running away like that.
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DoubleDare
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Post by DoubleDare on Sept 27, 2013 9:41:32 GMT -5
The closest we got to a hogan like turn, in the sense it was a guy who as a face for a while (In this case since 2000), while obviously not near as over and loved....still well liked. Is JBL. So they have a match where heyman says if they lose then farooq is fired. So what else for bradshaw to do but stay and embrace who he really is! www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6XI63A35gA
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Sept 27, 2013 11:44:58 GMT -5
Ah yes, JBL. One of the best turns the last fifteen yrs. Chocked full of logic. In that promo, he didn't lie or distort a thing. But his motivations do not line up with the values of the crowd, so he is made heel, but a heel that is believed. JBL rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but I enjoyed his heel run immensely. Great character who got great heat.
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Post by Sparvid on Sept 28, 2013 0:40:46 GMT -5
You can't telegraph a heel turn too much or it gets nauseating. One tag member keeps getting pinned and the other one huffs and puffs and looks all mad? OH MAN I WONDER WHERE THIS IS GOING AFTER LIKE 9 MORE SHOWS! Come to think of it, didn't they mix it up a bit with the Hart Dynasty? Where David Hart Smith kept getting frustrated with Tyson Kidd for weeks, only for Kidd to be the one to turn heel.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Sept 28, 2013 7:08:48 GMT -5
You can't telegraph a heel turn too much or it gets nauseating. One tag member keeps getting pinned and the other one huffs and puffs and looks all mad? OH MAN I WONDER WHERE THIS IS GOING AFTER LIKE 9 MORE SHOWS! Come to think of it, didn't they mix it up a bit with the Hart Dynasty? Where David Hart Smith kept getting frustrated with Tyson Kidd for weeks, only for Kidd to be the one to turn heel. Just imagine how novel it would've been had it been included in a consequential angle.
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Sept 28, 2013 7:23:48 GMT -5
You know the heel turn I hate? Benoit 2002 (I think). It was so painfully obvious. The least they could have done was have him run into the ring before Austin cleared it. All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. It didn't help that, when trying to explain that turn, they introduced a continuity error that wasn't corrected until they were soundly mocked for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 11:21:48 GMT -5
The real problem with face and heel turns is that they are so frequent now that they mean nothing and most guys will be back to their original alignment within 6 months or so IMO.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Sept 29, 2013 20:13:46 GMT -5
All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. It didn't help that, when trying to explain that turn, they introduced a continuity error that wasn't corrected until they were soundly mocked for it. To be fair I think the WWE has gotten used to never being taken to task for continuity errors and I was really surprised enough of a stink was raised about the "Iron Clad Contract" issue that it ended up being brought up on screen. WWE takes full advantage of "the viewers are goldfish" on a regular basis and I usually don't even care that much. Like I think the product would be more interesting if they stuck with continuity more but I'm not a continuity nerd like a lot of internet fandom types so it doesn't bother me. And I honestly thought most of the casual viewer types and "mainstream fans" would have been conditioned to care about continuity in WWE even less than they do in most television. But suddenly the Iron Clad Contract because the one major sticking point. It was weird to me.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Sept 29, 2013 20:19:08 GMT -5
What was the continuity error?
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 29, 2013 20:50:02 GMT -5
What was the continuity error? If I am remembering correctly, The stipulation was something like anyone under contract interferes in the match and Big Johnny was fired Big Show claimed to have signed a contract before interfering in the match. Thus Johnny should have been fired. Edit: It may have been anyone who interferes and is under contract would be fired immediately. Either way if Big Show had a contract it clashes with what they were trying to sell.
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Sept 29, 2013 20:54:11 GMT -5
It didn't help that, when trying to explain that turn, they introduced a continuity error that wasn't corrected until they were soundly mocked for it. To be fair I think the WWE has gotten used to never being taken to task for continuity errors and I was really surprised enough of a stink was raised about the "Iron Clad Contract" issue that it ended up being brought up on screen. WWE takes full advantage of "the viewers are goldfish" on a regular basis and I usually don't even care that much. Like I think the product would be more interesting if they stuck with continuity more but I'm not a continuity nerd like a lot of internet fandom types so it doesn't bother me. And I honestly thought most of the casual viewer types and "mainstream fans" would have been conditioned to care about continuity in WWE even less than they do in most television. But suddenly the Iron Clad Contract because the one major sticking point. It was weird to me. It was the main event and focus of the Raw product, so it was automatically a pretty big deal, especially with people being conditioned not to care much about anything that isn't the main. The stipulations were repeated enough times, pointed out, and also made a big deal of, so the rule of repetition was invoked. People were paying attention to what was going on and remembering the things surrounding it, so it would've been more of a surprise for them not to have been taken to task for (inadvertently?) making such a huge misstep. We can joke around and mock minor things like "SoAndSo and SoAndSo were mortal enemies now they're teaming? LOL!", since honestly those aren't a big deal, but when something like that pops up that can potentially wreck a major storyline because someone wasn't paying enough attention to get it right, I think that WWE should have to hear about it. With their preoccupation with and encouragement of social media use during shows, that's just what happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 20:56:20 GMT -5
Well you know somethin' brother, I picked up that heel turn, jack, and slammed all 700 pounds of it at Bash at the Beach! But then, the next day... it died, dude...
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Post by sportatorium on Oct 2, 2013 20:42:38 GMT -5
It is still pretty fantastic. I was at that point groaning when Hulk had been on WCW TV, and was suddenly motivated to watch an entire episode of Saturday night to see a Hogan/NWO promo. Unlike Hall & Nash, he wasn't trying to get cheers- he was reenergized & it showed.
Turns in general work well if there is a storyline/reason behind them that resonates with the fans. Constantly turning guys like Big Show & Kane does nothing for them. Slow burns like Batista turning on Evolution & Jericho turning on Shawn show that turns can still be very effective.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Oct 3, 2013 14:49:04 GMT -5
Can anyone name any exciting face turns in the past 10 years? Because that's dead too.
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tms
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Post by tms on Oct 3, 2013 16:02:46 GMT -5
Can anyone name any exciting face turns in the past 10 years? Because that's dead too. Lord Tensai.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Oct 3, 2013 18:00:51 GMT -5
What was the continuity error? If I am remembering correctly, The stipulation was something like anyone under contract interferes in the match and Big Johnny was fired Big Show claimed to have signed a contract before interfering in the match. Thus Johnny should have been fired. Edit: It may have been anyone who interferes and is under contract would be fired immediately. Either way if Big Show had a contract it clashes with what they were trying to sell. It was a really surreal moment in the company's history. What gets ignored from that night is that Johnny also said that if anyone touches him, they'd get fired. Sheamus saves Cena from an attack...by pushing Johnny Ace. Is Sheamus fired? Nope! Tag Team Match!
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Oct 4, 2013 9:12:57 GMT -5
What was the continuity error? If I am remembering correctly, The stipulation was something like anyone under contract interferes in the match and Big Johnny was fired Big Show claimed to have signed a contract before interfering in the match. Thus Johnny should have been fired. Edit: It may have been anyone who interferes and is under contract would be fired immediately. Either way if Big Show had a contract it clashes with what they were trying to sell. I'm pretty sure that it was explained that Show and Johnny had a handshake agreement. The actual contract wasn't signed until AFTER the PPV
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Oct 4, 2013 9:18:49 GMT -5
That was how they retconned it yes.
The original statement stated Show was already under contract.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Oct 5, 2013 0:47:26 GMT -5
All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. The betrayal no one saw coming! Truly the darkest day in the history of the company.
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