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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 26, 2013 7:27:19 GMT -5
So the Hulk Hogan heel turn is arguably the greatest heel turn of all time, it changed the industry, yada yada yada.
However, I think it killed the shocking heel turn, because now it is more important for a heel turn to be shocking than it is to be necessary, as indicated by a lot of the WWF's booking and WCW's booking.
I think that since Hogan, wrestling writers think incredibly over babyface turning heel instantly means an incredibly over heel, but it just doesn't work that way. Sometimes it has, like with The Rock at Survivor Series 1998, for example, but both companies are guilty of squandering hot babyfaces just to turn then heel for the sake of some pointless 'unpredictability.' WCW did it with Buff Bagwell, Curt Hennig, turning Goldberg or Sting heel at ANY time and basically anyone else that ever joined the nWo, WWE did it with Rikishi (for my money the worst example), Ryback, CM Punk, even Stone Cold.
Now in many of these cases, I've enjoyed some of the work that has ensued and it may even have got over (heel Stone Cold in 2001 might be my favourite wrestling character in history) but that doesn't mean it was the right decision overall.
What do you guys think, agree, disagree?
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Sept 26, 2013 15:15:34 GMT -5
The problem isn't the shocking heel turn. It's not finding the justification for it afterwards. Hogan was shocking, but it immediately made sense in retrospect. It didn't betray the Hogan character, but only served to enrich it. When Goldberg turned heel in 2000, it never made any sense and the best explanation we got was that we didn't deserve an explanation.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Sept 26, 2013 16:02:26 GMT -5
Great post. I have opinions but its difficult on my phone.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Sept 26, 2013 18:59:07 GMT -5
Everyone points to the Rikishi turn as being bad, but the reason he initially gave made a lot of sense (feeling samoans were being held down)
I mad they messed it up later by just having it be Triple H's doing
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 26, 2013 19:17:26 GMT -5
I'd say Vince Russo killed the heel turn.
*sidesteps and hits thread in the head with a chair*
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Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Sept 26, 2013 19:49:14 GMT -5
You know the heel turn I hate? Benoit 2002 (I think). It was so painfully obvious. The least they could have done was have him run into the ring before Austin cleared it.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Sept 26, 2013 20:12:01 GMT -5
You know the heel turn I hate? Benoit 2002 (I think). It was so painfully obvious. The least they could have done was have him run into the ring before Austin cleared it. All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. |
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Sept 26, 2013 20:27:44 GMT -5
The problem is Hogan was a face for YEARS while the other examples where not that long. Ok The Rock isn't going to shock nobody when he was a face for like Two months max. The only way for a shock heel turn to happen if it someone who was such a face you never expect it and once they turn heel they need to change something. Like Hogan turned in the red and yellow. Changed the name to Hollywood. Changed his way of promos with acting like he was the greatest ever. Austin didn't change much. If he lets say started to wear a suit and was more well mattered with Vince. Then you had something.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Sept 26, 2013 20:31:35 GMT -5
And he killed the radio star too, brother!
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Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Sept 26, 2013 20:36:14 GMT -5
I HATE YOU THUNDERLIPS
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 26, 2013 21:31:08 GMT -5
I will defend to the death the Rikishi turn, because it was so well motivated with his character, and it led to what could have been a really interesting Rikishi/Rock/Austin situation, the racial angle played off of wrestling history in a really interesting way, and they just completely squandered it. It wasn't a shocking turn for its own sake, but something that actually did make sense.
People in this forum have identified the three big problems with the turn: 1. They didn't foreshadow it by making Rikish super happy about Rock's Samoan connection, which really hurt the big reveal, 2. They panicked way too early and threw HHH in there, and 3. Most importantly, they tried to make Rikishi a monster heel while keeping him in that same ridiculous outfit.
I'd say it doesn't fit with the rest.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Sept 26, 2013 22:50:15 GMT -5
You know the heel turn I hate? Benoit 2002 (I think). It was so painfully obvious. The least they could have done was have him run into the ring before Austin cleared it. All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. If they really wanted to surprise us, they should have had Show stay face and KO Johnny. That turn is also why I have no desire to see full heel Show in his current storyline. |
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Sept 26, 2013 22:54:12 GMT -5
I'd say Vince Russo killed the heel turn. *sidesteps and hits thread in the head with a chair* And you'd partially be correct.....it wasn't just him, you can also thank Vince McMahon for coming out and saying, "It's not sports. It's sport entertainment." Once he did that (and to be fair, the internet would have inevitably made it that way, regardless), in most smark's minds, we viewed the wrestler more on a performer level, rather than the classic days of HEROES and VILLAINS. That is why Heel CM Punk was getting cheered more than booed for most of his heel run, as was Bryan. Because we appreciate them too much for their workrate/promo skills, rather than their actions, persay. It's why Punk would have to pull out EVERY cheap heat getting device in the book, in order to be properly booed, but that would really only last the length of the segment only. It's why the Steve Austin 2001 run didn't work properly either. I think in addition, there's an ICON point that a lot of wrestlers get too that makes it hard to boo them, even as a heel. Ric Flair (unless you're a Flair hater) is one of these people, Roddy Piper, Steve Austin, ect, ect. I actually think Triple H was REALLY properly able to turn heel this only because he turned on a MEGA popular guy like Daniel Bryan. I think Punk was the only other guy he really could have properly (at least a current guy) done that with. Cena wouldn't have worked. |
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Post by kamero00 on Sept 26, 2013 22:56:21 GMT -5
HBK had a very similar heel turn, when he through Jennety through the glass. It had been done before.
Big Show RUINED the heel turn. Somehow him crying keeps leading to him becoming a bad guy.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 26, 2013 22:57:57 GMT -5
Everyone points to the Rikishi turn as being bad, but the reason he initially gave made a lot of sense (feeling samoans were being held down) I mad they messed it up later by just having it be Triple H's doing The best part of Rikishi's heel turn? This theme song... www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6cERISqOHA |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 27, 2013 7:03:15 GMT -5
A combination of overexposed character and modern booking killed the heel turn. It's hard to have a shocking heel turn when a character has been on tv for half a decade with very little time off and seems to turn every year or so. Unless you're a cash cow, a heel turn is now an inevitability and the audience knows it because they've seen it happen over and over and over, just look at Daniel Bryan. He started face, then heel, released, rehired, face, heel and repeat in a 3 year period... Is there any wonder heel turns have less and less impact?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 8:03:50 GMT -5
I'm seeing a lot of good points. If you ever want to see a heel turn done properly, you have to get a guy we care about to the point it would disappoint us greatly when he does change, like a Daniel Bryan. Santino Marella, a guy nobody has any sort of attachment with and is just out there, I don't think that would make much of a ripple in effect. (Zack Ryder would be an intriguing case. He's sort of in that grey area - what I like to call the blase "yeah, he's alright" kind of fandom. There's no huge Zack Ryder Army like there used to be.)
Watch Mick Foley work his magic sometime. We cared about Mick, we related to his struggles to become a star wrestler. To completely "sell out his principles" was what made his turns work. (And his explanations, those were a sort of genius.)
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Mozenrath
FANatic
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Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,991
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 27, 2013 8:16:10 GMT -5
You can't telegraph a heel turn too much or it gets nauseating. One tag member keeps getting pinned and the other one huffs and puffs and looks all mad? OH MAN I WONDER WHERE THIS IS GOING AFTER LIKE 9 MORE SHOWS!
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 27, 2013 8:18:40 GMT -5
You know the heel turn I hate? Benoit 2002 (I think). It was so painfully obvious. The least they could have done was have him run into the ring before Austin cleared it. All that I can say is hindsight is 20/20.... The Benoit 2002 turn was Shakespearean compared to Big Show at OTL 2012. That heel turn was truly painful to watch. The betrayal no one saw coming! |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 27, 2013 8:40:22 GMT -5
HBK had a very similar heel turn, when he through Jennety through the glass. It had been done before. Big Show RUINED the heel turn. Somehow him crying keeps leading to him becoming a bad guy. I don't recall that. I recall Jannety jumping through the window to escape however |
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