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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 22:11:39 GMT -5
Dudes. Flair. Most world titles. What other kayfabe metric for success matters? If we're talking WWE kayfabe he won almost all of those world titles in either NWA, or worse, WCW. They're both inferior rasslin companies that took place in smoke filled armories and dingy high school gyms. He's basically a two time world champion in the WWE Universe. Damn, good point
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Oct 24, 2013 22:45:00 GMT -5
Kayfabe, it's Edge. This is why: Ric Flair was the man. He once proclaimed that to be the man, you gotta beat the man. Ric Flair was defeated, but he wasn't truly beaten until Shawn Michaels defeated him at Wrestlemania. This started THE MAN lineage, which ended on Edge--he retired still the champion, which either still makes him the man or makes cervical spinal stenosis The Man. Your call. Here's the complete list: 1 Ric Flair 1 N/A N/A N/A N/A Innagural Champion 2 Shawn Michaels 1 30-Mar-08 63 Orlando, FL Wrestlemania XXIV This was a Career Threatening match. The title is officially recognized from this night on. 3 Batista 1 1-Jun-08 28 San Diego, CA One Night Stand (2008) This was a Stretcher match. 4 Edge 1 29-Jun-08 1 Dallas, TX Night of Champions (2008) 5 CM Punk 1 30-Jun-08 49 Oklahoma City, OK Raw Punk cashed in his Money in the Bank contract in order to challenge for the title. 6 Chris Jericho 1 18-Aug-08 20 Chicago, IL Raw 7 Shawn Michaels 2 7-Sep-08 28 Cleveland, OH Unforgiven (2008) This was an Unsanctioned match. 8 Chris Jericho 2 5-Oct-08 8 Portland, OR No Mercy (2008) This was a Ladder match. 9 CM Punk 2 13-Oct-08 35 Anaheim, CA Raw Batista was the guest referee. 10 Randy Orton 1 17-Nov-08 27 Atlanta, GA Raw This was a Lumberjack match. 11 Batista 2 14-Dec-08 303 Buffalo, NY Armageddon (2008) 12 Rey Mysterio 1 13-Oct-09 40 Lexington, KY SmackDown 13 Batista 3 22-Nov-09 21 Washington, D.C. Survivor Series (2009) The referee was forced to call the match when Batista refused to end it. 14 The Undertaker 1 13-Dec-09 58 San Antonio, TX TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2009) This was a Chairs match. 15 Chris Jericho 3 9-Feb-10 49 Baton Rouge, LA SmackDown This was a No Disqualification match. 16 Jack Swagger 1 30-Mar-10 6 Las Vegas, NV SmackDown Swagger cashed in his Money in the Bank contract to earn the right to challenge for the title. 17 Randy Orton 2 5-Apr-10 20 Moline, IL Raw 18 Jack Swagger 2 25-Apr-10 23 Baltimore, MD Extreme Rules (2010) 19 Kofi Kingston 1 18-May-10 49 Ottawa, ON SmackDown 20 Drew McIntyre 1 6-Jul-10 21 Atlanta, GA SmackDown 21 Christian 1 27-Jul-10 14 Corpus Christi, TX SmackDown 22 Cody Rhodes 1 10-Aug-10 52 San Jose, CA SmackDown 23 Randy Orton 3 1-Oct-10 52 Oklahoma City, OK SmackDown 24 The Miz 1 22-Nov-10 70 Orlando, FL Raw The Miz cashed in his Money in the Bank contract after Randy Orton successfully defended The Man Championship against Wade Barrett. 25 Edge 2 31-Jan-11 71 Providence, RI Raw This was a Champion vs Champion match. Source: The Man Championship(There is debate about whether the title can be inherited after the vacancy, but I don't think even the mighty Mr.Vacant can inherit the title. You gotta BEAT the man!)
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 25, 2013 5:04:28 GMT -5
Dudes. Flair. Most world titles. What other kayfabe metric for success matters? Length of reigns, Flair kept losing the thing, Bruno has 2 reigns, both longer than all of Flair's, he just couldn't be beaten. Andre has a good shout too, since Wrestlemania 3 was his first Kayfabe loss, he never lost the WWF title after he won it, it was stripped, and outside the Warrior feud where he was a physical wreck, he had maybe 1 or 2 clean losses.
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Post by oniloco on Oct 25, 2013 5:51:01 GMT -5
if it's kayfabe then whoever has the ultimate storytelling is Vince- and he's a former champ. So I'd say him. Kayfabe wise he's always going to 'win' as he gets rich regardless of whoever's around in the company.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 5:58:31 GMT -5
Probably Rock. He's beaten Austin, he's beaten Hogan, he's beaten Flair, he's beaten Cena, he's beaten Undertaker, Triple H, Punk... About the only modern-ish faces of wrestling he hasn't beaten at some point are Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, and they've always seemed kind of like second tier headliners anyway. Though kayfabe-wise Bret probably has a solid claim to it himself, given how many title runs he had, how many challengers he went through, and how his losses to people like Shawn Michaels (and Triple H! Don't forget that time Triple H beat him!) are largely via shenanigans or in the case of the Iron Man match something where he would have won if the time limit hadn't expired.
So one of those two or Sammartino. The length of his title run just blows away basically anything that comes after it, even if it is firmly a product of its time.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Oct 25, 2013 6:12:01 GMT -5
For what its worth according to profightdb.com its The Ultimate Warrior. 131 wins, 2 draws, 15 losses. 88.51% win percentage. www.profightdb.com/wrestlers-with-highest-win-percentages.htmlBruno's up there but Hogan's not even close. Dino Bravo, Jake Roberts, Junk Yard Dog, and Rick Martel are examples of big names that have better win percentages than anyone mentioned in this thread except Goldberg and Warrior.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Oct 25, 2013 6:16:18 GMT -5
Dudes. Flair. Most world titles. What other kayfabe metric for success matters? I'd say combined length of reign with world titles would be a better metric than number of reigns. Does Flair hold that record? Most days spent as world champion?
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 25, 2013 7:12:28 GMT -5
Hulk Hogan
By sheer number of world titles plus main eventing Wrestlemania.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 7:34:30 GMT -5
Dudes. Flair. Most world titles. What other kayfabe metric for success matters? I'd say combined length of reign with world titles would be a better metric than number of reigns. Does Flair hold that record? Most days spent as world champion? No, he comes in at about a year shy of Bruno. Or at least, that's with his NWA, WCW, and WWF runs, might have more if you bring in some random minor titles.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Oct 25, 2013 7:48:18 GMT -5
Jizarny retired with a 100%record didn't he?
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Oct 25, 2013 10:12:41 GMT -5
I think the only way you can do this, if you are going purely kayfabe, is by total days as World Champion.
That only leaves four candidates: Lou Thesz, Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan.
All of them have 3000+ days as World Champion (be that WWF/E, WCW or NWA) which I don't think anyone else is close to.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 10:21:27 GMT -5
Kayfabe, the GOAT has to be Hogan. Also kayfabe, the greatest wrestler of all time is probably Bret Hart.
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Post by bitteroldman on Oct 25, 2013 10:21:27 GMT -5
I think the only way you can do this, if you are going purely kayfabe, is by total days as World Champion. That only leaves four candidates: Lou Thesz, Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan. All of them have 3000+ days as World Champion (be that WWF/E, WCW or NWA) which I don't think anyone else is close to. The Fabulous Moolah held the Women's title for 28+ years.
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Oct 25, 2013 10:27:55 GMT -5
I think the only way you can do this, if you are going purely kayfabe, is by total days as World Champion. That only leaves four candidates: Lou Thesz, Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan. All of them have 3000+ days as World Champion (be that WWF/E, WCW or NWA) which I don't think anyone else is close to. The Fabulous Moolah held the Women's title for 28+ years. Haha - fair point well made. In terms of women's wrestling she wins.
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Post by fw91 on Oct 25, 2013 10:43:15 GMT -5
Kayfabe, it's Edge. This is why: Ric Flair was the man. He once proclaimed that to be the man, you gotta beat the man. Ric Flair was defeated, but he wasn't truly beaten until Shawn Michaels defeated him at Wrestlemania. This started THE MAN lineage, which ended on Edge--he retired still the champion, which either still makes him the man or makes cervical spinal stenosis The Man. Your call. Here's the complete list: 1 Ric Flair 1 N/A N/A N/A N/A Innagural Champion 2 Shawn Michaels 1 30-Mar-08 63 Orlando, FL Wrestlemania XXIV This was a Career Threatening match. The title is officially recognized from this night on. 3 Batista 1 1-Jun-08 28 San Diego, CA One Night Stand (2008) This was a Stretcher match. 4 Edge 1 29-Jun-08 1 Dallas, TX Night of Champions (2008) 5 CM Punk 1 30-Jun-08 49 Oklahoma City, OK Raw Punk cashed in his Money in the Bank contract in order to challenge for the title. 6 Chris Jericho 1 18-Aug-08 20 Chicago, IL Raw 7 Shawn Michaels 2 7-Sep-08 28 Cleveland, OH Unforgiven (2008) This was an Unsanctioned match. 8 Chris Jericho 2 5-Oct-08 8 Portland, OR No Mercy (2008) This was a Ladder match. 9 CM Punk 2 13-Oct-08 35 Anaheim, CA Raw Batista was the guest referee. 10 Randy Orton 1 17-Nov-08 27 Atlanta, GA Raw This was a Lumberjack match. 11 Batista 2 14-Dec-08 303 Buffalo, NY Armageddon (2008) 12 Rey Mysterio 1 13-Oct-09 40 Lexington, KY SmackDown 13 Batista 3 22-Nov-09 21 Washington, D.C. Survivor Series (2009) The referee was forced to call the match when Batista refused to end it. 14 The Undertaker 1 13-Dec-09 58 San Antonio, TX TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2009) This was a Chairs match. 15 Chris Jericho 3 9-Feb-10 49 Baton Rouge, LA SmackDown This was a No Disqualification match. 16 Jack Swagger 1 30-Mar-10 6 Las Vegas, NV SmackDown Swagger cashed in his Money in the Bank contract to earn the right to challenge for the title. 17 Randy Orton 2 5-Apr-10 20 Moline, IL Raw 18 Jack Swagger 2 25-Apr-10 23 Baltimore, MD Extreme Rules (2010) 19 Kofi Kingston 1 18-May-10 49 Ottawa, ON SmackDown 20 Drew McIntyre 1 6-Jul-10 21 Atlanta, GA SmackDown 21 Christian 1 27-Jul-10 14 Corpus Christi, TX SmackDown 22 Cody Rhodes 1 10-Aug-10 52 San Jose, CA SmackDown 23 Randy Orton 3 1-Oct-10 52 Oklahoma City, OK SmackDown 24 The Miz 1 22-Nov-10 70 Orlando, FL Raw The Miz cashed in his Money in the Bank contract after Randy Orton successfully defended The Man Championship against Wade Barrett. 25 Edge 2 31-Jan-11 71 Providence, RI Raw This was a Champion vs Champion match. Source: The Man Championship(There is debate about whether the title can be inherited after the vacancy, but I don't think even the mighty Mr.Vacant can inherit the title. You gotta BEAT the man!) But undertaker ended hbk's career. Shouldn't he be the man?
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 25, 2013 11:13:40 GMT -5
Warrior beat an in his prime Hogan and has one of the best overall win/loss records in wrestling history. Has to be him.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Oct 25, 2013 11:15:36 GMT -5
Kayfabe, it's Edge. This is why: Ric Flair was the man. He once proclaimed that to be the man, you gotta beat the man. Ric Flair was defeated, but he wasn't truly beaten until Shawn Michaels defeated him at Wrestlemania. This started THE MAN lineage, which ended on Edge--he retired still the champion, which either still makes him the man or makes cervical spinal stenosis The Man. Your call. Here's the complete list: 1 Ric Flair 1 N/A N/A N/A N/A Innagural Champion 2 Shawn Michaels 1 30-Mar-08 63 Orlando, FL Wrestlemania XXIV This was a Career Threatening match. The title is officially recognized from this night on. 3 Batista 1 1-Jun-08 28 San Diego, CA One Night Stand (2008) This was a Stretcher match. 4 Edge 1 29-Jun-08 1 Dallas, TX Night of Champions (2008) 5 CM Punk 1 30-Jun-08 49 Oklahoma City, OK Raw Punk cashed in his Money in the Bank contract in order to challenge for the title. 6 Chris Jericho 1 18-Aug-08 20 Chicago, IL Raw 7 Shawn Michaels 2 7-Sep-08 28 Cleveland, OH Unforgiven (2008) This was an Unsanctioned match. 8 Chris Jericho 2 5-Oct-08 8 Portland, OR No Mercy (2008) This was a Ladder match. 9 CM Punk 2 13-Oct-08 35 Anaheim, CA Raw Batista was the guest referee. 10 Randy Orton 1 17-Nov-08 27 Atlanta, GA Raw This was a Lumberjack match. 11 Batista 2 14-Dec-08 303 Buffalo, NY Armageddon (2008) 12 Rey Mysterio 1 13-Oct-09 40 Lexington, KY SmackDown 13 Batista 3 22-Nov-09 21 Washington, D.C. Survivor Series (2009) The referee was forced to call the match when Batista refused to end it. 14 The Undertaker 1 13-Dec-09 58 San Antonio, TX TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2009) This was a Chairs match. 15 Chris Jericho 3 9-Feb-10 49 Baton Rouge, LA SmackDown This was a No Disqualification match. 16 Jack Swagger 1 30-Mar-10 6 Las Vegas, NV SmackDown Swagger cashed in his Money in the Bank contract to earn the right to challenge for the title. 17 Randy Orton 2 5-Apr-10 20 Moline, IL Raw 18 Jack Swagger 2 25-Apr-10 23 Baltimore, MD Extreme Rules (2010) 19 Kofi Kingston 1 18-May-10 49 Ottawa, ON SmackDown 20 Drew McIntyre 1 6-Jul-10 21 Atlanta, GA SmackDown 21 Christian 1 27-Jul-10 14 Corpus Christi, TX SmackDown 22 Cody Rhodes 1 10-Aug-10 52 San Jose, CA SmackDown 23 Randy Orton 3 1-Oct-10 52 Oklahoma City, OK SmackDown 24 The Miz 1 22-Nov-10 70 Orlando, FL Raw The Miz cashed in his Money in the Bank contract after Randy Orton successfully defended The Man Championship against Wade Barrett. 25 Edge 2 31-Jan-11 71 Providence, RI Raw This was a Champion vs Champion match. Source: The Man Championship(There is debate about whether the title can be inherited after the vacancy, but I don't think even the mighty Mr.Vacant can inherit the title. You gotta BEAT the man!) But undertaker ended hbk's career. Shouldn't he be the man? That is one of the many topics under hot debate from many different Man Championship scholars.
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Post by saintpat on Oct 25, 2013 12:32:04 GMT -5
Intergender it's Andy Kaufman. Undefeated, and non-kayfabe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 12:45:50 GMT -5
It's gotta be between John Cena, Hulk Hogan and Bruno Sammartino. I'm tempted to say John Cena though. Sammartino has more than a decade's worth of time with the World Championship but I'd argue that he didn't have to deal with even a fraction of the amount of bullshit that John Cena has to deal with today. Run ins and shenanigans are more rampant than ever and the competition is faster, harder hitting and more athletic. To be on top for so long in post-2000 where everything moves so fast gives John Cena the edge in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 12:47:37 GMT -5
I'd make the argument that even in kayfabe, title reigns and number of wins mean very, very little to the point of near insignificance. WWF/WWE's measure of a top star, even in kayfabe, has always been about their number of memorable moments. That's why Andre, Piper, and the like are presented as being more important than Backlund or Bruno. I'd say that in kayfabe, THE guy will always be Hogan or Flair.
But, of course, you have to take into account that WWE presents wrestling's most legendary figure as whatever one of a handful of guys they're on good terms with or are unable to be on bad terms with, due to them being dead. In the Attitude era, you had guys like Andre, Snuka, Blassie, and Lou Albano being promoted as the best ever. When they got Hogan back, it was him. Now that the Rock is WWE's current favorite, he is presented as being bigger than Austin ever was, which, despite being revisionist history, is kayfabe...
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