Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Nov 3, 2013 9:17:36 GMT -5
Yes, HHH is realistically a top 50 wrestler imho.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 3, 2013 9:37:09 GMT -5
he wouldn't be top 10 at all, and be VERY hard pressed to get into the top 20, but at least in terms of North America he's definitely in the top 50. it's a shame he let his ego get in the way because it makes a lot of people forget that he was one of the best things about the show from 1999 to 2000.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 3, 2013 10:01:54 GMT -5
The thing is a lot of people hate him in an "X-Pac heat" way. Not the same as hating him because he's a good heel. Some just truly don't like seeing him in general whether he's a face or a heel. this; the company's never really recovered from the Reign of Terror. I was watching with my friend who doesn't watch anymore a couple weeks back and he just rolled his eyes and seemed mystified that the show was still being built around the guy. and I say this as a fan of the guy. his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since. he was, as Cornette put it "the guy who wrestles the guy that actually makes money" and he totally shit the bed when it was his turn. if he were anyone else he would've been pushed down.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 3, 2013 10:08:07 GMT -5
>Not in the top 200 >Not better than Jeff HardyIt is legitimately hilarious how pissed people still are about the Reign of Terror. Who would've imagined one bad booking decision could override someone's entire career. but it did. it might seem ridiculous but considering how many people still hold it against him, it's hard to ignore. it's kinda of like Bret Favre being a great quarterback for the first half of his career and then being treated (rightfully) as a joke who did nothing but throw picks and refuse to retire for the second half of his career.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Nov 3, 2013 10:43:25 GMT -5
I'm not even a fan of the guy and I find it hilarious how so many people just seem out to shit on the guy.
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Post by goodbyehorses on Nov 3, 2013 10:46:09 GMT -5
>Not in the top 200 >Not better than Jeff HardyIt is legitimately hilarious how pissed people still are about the Reign of Terror. Who would've imagined one bad booking decision could override someone's entire career. You underestimate the love people have for Booker T and Kane.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 3, 2013 10:58:28 GMT -5
>Not in the top 200 >Not better than Jeff HardyIt is legitimately hilarious how pissed people still are about the Reign of Terror. Who would've imagined one bad booking decision could override someone's entire career. You underestimate the love people have for Booker T and Kane. Objectively, you a guy in Kane who has had crap gimmick after crap gimmick, has been used as a comedy jobber at least 20 times in the last decade,and switched from heel to face constantly. Despite that, the fans still buy him as a legitimate main eventer. To me, that versatility makes him a top 10 guy since being able to main event both as a heel and a face in a short period of time, and have the crowed buy into you on both occasions is extremely useful and profitable from a booking standpoint.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,891
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Post by khali on Nov 3, 2013 12:28:24 GMT -5
Triple H was at one time a great performer, both in ring and in promos. But in the latter part of his career he's become very boring in both those areas. Cena, for example , has delivered much more in big matches for years than Triple H has. Triple H is the guy who went into huge Mania matches with Orton and Lesnar and produced nothing good. Somewhere along the line to me the quality of the overall package really dropped off.
Still, as far as a WWE top fifty, he still makes it. I can't see him making a worldwide top fifty, though.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 3, 2013 12:45:12 GMT -5
The thing is a lot of people hate him in an "X-Pac heat" way. Not the same as hating him because he's a good heel. Some just truly don't like seeing him in general whether he's a face or a heel. this; the company's never really recovered from the Reign of Terror. I was watching with my friend who doesn't watch anymore a couple weeks back and he just rolled his eyes and seemed mystified that the show was still being built around the guy. and I say this as a fan of the guy. his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since. he was, as Cornette put it "the guy who wrestles the guy that actually makes money" and he totally shit the bed when it was his turn. if he were anyone else he would've been pushed down. So true. At the time of the attitude era I had at least twenty friends that were into wrestling. We would watch ppvs at bars or order them at house parties. In 2003 all but one of them stopped watching solely because of HHH's monster push, but that guy was a HHH mark.
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Post by Bootista on Nov 3, 2013 12:57:45 GMT -5
Yes.
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Nov 3, 2013 13:17:02 GMT -5
I have him as #12 on my list, just behind the Undertaker(11) and ahead of Harley Race(13).
Keep in mind, the criteria for determining the top 100 wrestlers of all time vary widely depending on the person making the list. Here's mine:
1. Post-WW II to the present. This takes into account the entire TV era, which radically changed the business. I think you can reasonably compare guys in that time frame, whereas the much smaller level of exposure prior to that simply makes it impossible.
2. American/Canadian wrestlers only. Sorry to all the Japanese and Lucha fans out there. Again, I think the difference is the level of exposure. I know many wrestlers from Japan, Mexico and elsewhere are superb. However, then are essentially unknown in the U.S. except to diehards like us who post here. Also its a language issue. I don't think we can compare guys who speak different languages, and I can't really evaluate guys whose language I don't understand, The business just involves too much verbal communication.
3. I believe there have only been two promotions worthy of promoting a true World Heavyweight championship-NWA/WCW and WWF/WWE. A few others are close, but I rate of slightly less importance than the Top Two: AWA, ECW, TNA. After that, I rank the various current and past regional promotions based on my perception of their importance to the business, the top ones being: ROH(Ring of Honor), Chikara, Mid-Atlantic(Crockett pre-WCW), Florida (Eddie Graham) St Louis/Kansas City(Muchnick, Geigel) Memphis (Jarrett, Gulas, Welch), WCCW(Dallas-Von Erich) Stampede(Calgary, Hart), Georgia (Barnett, Gunkel), Amarillo (Funks) and others I'm not thinking of.
4. Individual factors include: in-ring technical skill, promo/mic skills, world titles held and length of time holding them, drawing power, longevity, impact on the business, impact on popular culture
Based on all that, Triple H ranks very high in World titles held and length of time held, impact on the business; above average in longevity, technical skills and promo ability, so-so in drawing power, lower in impact on popular culture. Overall, it can't be argued that Triple H hasn't had an outstanding career.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 3, 2013 13:33:00 GMT -5
I have him as #12 on my list, just behind the Undertaker(11) and ahead of Harley Race(13). Keep in mind, the criteria for determining the top 100 wrestlers of all time vary widely depending on the person making the list. Here's mine: 1. Post-WW II to the present. This takes into account the entire TV era, which radically changed the business. I think you can reasonably compare guys in that time frame, whereas the much smaller level of exposure prior to that simply makes it impossible. 2. American/Canadian wrestlers only. Sorry to all the Japanese and Lucha fans out there. Again, I think the difference is the level of exposure. I know many wrestlers from Japan, Mexico and elsewhere are superb. However, then are essentially unknown in the U.S. except to diehards like us who post here. Also its a language issue. I don't think we can compare guys who speak different languages, and I can't really evaluate guys whose language I don't understand, The business just involves too much verbal communication. 3. I believe there have only been two promotions worthy of promoting a true World Heavyweight championship-NWA/WCW and WWF/WWE. A few others are close, but I rate of slightly less importance than the Top Two: AWA, ECW, TNA. After that, I rank the various current and past regional promotions based on my perception of their importance to the business, the top ones being: ROH(Ring of Honor), Chikara, Mid-Atlantic(Crockett pre-WCW), Florida (Eddie Graham) St Louis/Kansas City(Muchnick, Geigel) Memphis (Jarrett, Gulas, Welch), WCCW(Dallas-Von Erich) Stampede(Calgary, Hart), Georgia (Barnett, Gunkel), Amarillo (Funks) and others I'm not thinking of. 4. Individual factors include: in-ring technical skill, promo/mic skills, world titles held and length of time holding them, drawing power, longevity, impact on the business, impact on popular culture Based on all that, Triple H ranks very high in World titles held and length of time held, impact on the business; above average in longevity, technical skills and promo ability, so-so in drawing power, lower in impact on popular culture. Overall, it can't be argued that Triple H hasn't had an outstanding career. With these criteria, I can't argue with you. However, if I narrow it down enough, then it leaves a very small number of people to choose from. Your criteria, for example, removes the AWA and WCCW, both of which were massive promotions in their day. It would mean that Triple H outdrew Verne Gagne and the Von Erich's, or is a bigger draw since the promotions weren't "major". The whole argument is very subjective, though. We can qualify it, and you've done a great job at having some very objective measures, but even within them there are questions. Number of titles and length of reign. Would a Hogan 2 year run in WCW when he had creative control and refused to put anyone over be seen in a positive or negative light? Would one of the numerous "I'll drop the belt so I can win it back immediately" moments, of which there were several for Trips in the early 2000's, be seen differently from a six year Backlund run? We praise Triple H as being "old school" in his philosophy, but that very mindset does concern me on one level. We hear of bookers, like Lawler back in the day, who would just put the belt on himself, with the logic being he knew he wasn't going to run out on the promotion. Even when many such promoters didn't have it, they still would keep themselves main focuses of angels since, well, it was their toy but also it gave consistency. Triple H, ever since he married into the family and got some power, I've seen the same thing. It's not the same as Vince, who would insert himself into storylines almost with the express purpose of getting the hell beat out of him. It's more Gagne-esque, where even in the early 80's when he was well past his prime, he was still a centerpiece, still contending for the title, and still seen as tougher than others. To me, that's what Trips has become. He's got the mindset of a territory promoter who is afraid that everyone else is going to up and leave and kill his town. It's like Rock and Austin leaving the industry, then Brock, really scarred him.
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Post by thegame415 on Nov 3, 2013 18:25:14 GMT -5
If we're looking at WWE history, he's hands down a top 10. Maybe top 5 IMO.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 19:34:22 GMT -5
If we're looking at WWE history, he's hands down a top 10. Maybe top 5 IMO. Do you mean after 2002, since that's when the initals changed? Cuz if not...no chance of top 5. Austin, Hogan, Savage, Rock, Taker. There's 5 guys that are pretty much indisputably better. Then add in Bret, Shawn, Angle, Cena. That's not even getting into the Jake the Snakes and the Rick Rudes and the Mr. Perfects and the Ted DiBiases, guys who could've been on top if they weren't around when all-time great transcendent talents like Hogan and Savage were holding it down. I say Chris Jericho brings more to the table and has had a better career in terms of consistent quality work and helping get others over, especially the way he reinvented himself in 2008. A guy like Kane captures the imagination more, and has dealt with a lot more crappy angles and willed them to be entertaining. Eddie Guerrero got the fans to love him more, and hate him more, had better matches, showed more personality/charisma/versatility. Since this thread is about all major US promotions, Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair...come on, way better. Rey Mysterio helped revolutionize American pro wrestling in the mid 90s. He's been the exact same character the last 14 years, and his work only decreased in quality. In that regard, he's pretty much like a less exciting Rob Van Dam. People give Cena flak for not changing, I'm one of them, but I will say that he just keeps getting better between the ropes. I don't see it with Triple H, he's good but not interesting, solid but not special. There's nothing you can point to and say "he does this better than just about anybody." And there's things you can point to and say "he sucks at these things", mostly showing vulnerability and using his lofty status to make others look good and get them over. If he was better at that, and you'd think he would be since he's Mr. old-school this business guy, I'd be much more favorable towards his position in terms of the best 50 wrestlers of the last 30 years.
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Post by psychokiller on Nov 3, 2013 20:23:55 GMT -5
If we're looking at WWE history, he's hands down a top 10. Maybe top 5 IMO. If we're talking just strictly WWE/WWF careers starting in 1982 than yeah he'd be pretty high up due how dominant he was from 2002 through 2010 even though he was a shitty worker those years. But If I force myself to take those years into consideration here's how he'd be on my top 20 list in terms of importance to the WWF/WWE for the past 33 years. 1. Hulk Hogan 2. Steve Austin 3. The Rock 4. John Cena 5. The Undertaker 6. Shawn Michaels 7. Bret Hart 8. Randy Savage 9. Andre The Giant 10. Roddy Piper 11. Triple H 12. Kurt Angle 13. Chris Jericho 14. Ultimate Warrior 15. Mick Foley 16. CM Punk 17. Edge 18. Kane 19. Randy Orton 20. Batista
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Post by Savage Gambino on Nov 3, 2013 21:11:49 GMT -5
this; the company's never really recovered from the Reign of Terror. I was watching with my friend who doesn't watch anymore a couple weeks back and he just rolled his eyes and seemed mystified that the show was still being built around the guy. and I say this as a fan of the guy. his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since. he was, as Cornette put it "the guy who wrestles the guy that actually makes money" and he totally shit the bed when it was his turn. if he were anyone else he would've been pushed down. "his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since." That's a fine example of how folks exaggerate when it comes to Triple H. Chris Benoit? Hey, double homicide is bad, but it's not "Reign of Terror" bad.
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Post by thegame415 on Nov 3, 2013 22:31:43 GMT -5
My top ten since the expansion would include Hogan, Savage, Hart, Michaels, Undertaker, Austin. Rock,, Triple H, Angle and Cena, if we are going to include pre expansion, I would replace Angle with Sammartino.
HHH has consistently been in match of the year candidates since 1998. I truly believe if he wasn't in the position he's in, people would rank him higher.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Nov 4, 2013 0:08:34 GMT -5
Depends how you define it. Its really subjective and people value different things. But if someone put him up there I could see it
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Post by Raskovnik on Nov 4, 2013 0:16:14 GMT -5
I think it's pretty pathetic that people talk about his "ego" and hold grudges against him like he somehow wronged them personally. It's bizarre. I don't get wrestling fans sometimes. I do love how he's taking all of it in stride and incorporating it into his act on TV though.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 4, 2013 0:35:23 GMT -5
"his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since." That's a fine example of how folks exaggerate when it comes to Triple H. Chris Benoit? Hey, double homicide is bad, but it's not "Reign of Terror" bad. Benoit only buried 3 people! HHH has dozens!
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