SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 4, 2013 0:51:14 GMT -5
I think it's pretty pathetic that people talk about his "ego" and hold grudges against him like he somehow wronged them personally. It's bizarre. I don't get wrestling fans sometimes. I do love how he's taking all of it in stride and incorporating it into his act on TV though. I think it stems from the perception that HHH has used political stroke to hold down certain acts some felt deserved to be on top; and the fact that his marriage has pretty much guaranteed him preferential treatment and booking. He's the ultimate "have". And the argument can be made that that the only person to truly benefit from a HHH "job" was Batista in the last decade. -Jericho was always booked as his bitch. - Booker T. If they knew Goldberg was coming in two months prior to him showing up, why did they still have HHH do the race angle? HHH winning that match, with that storyline, rightfully left a bad taste in most people's mouths. -Benoit. HHH continued to be the main RAW attraction while Benoit was off floating around doing midcard matches. - Cena; some might say that HHH jobbing to Cena was "putting him over", but if you go back and watch the build, HHH was actually directly responsible for the "you can't wrestle" bullshit that still plagues Cena today. He flat out coined it. HHH was such a shitty heel in that build, that he convinced crowds who were riding the fence already to really turn on Cena. - Jeff Hardy. People who say HHH "put him over" always make me laugh. HHH did one job to him in late 2007, laughed, and sold it like Jeff winning was a fluke. Fast forward a year, and HHH beat Jeff in every match they had, until Jeff finally won the WWE Title off of HHH -- by pinning EDGE in a three way match. -Orton. Whenever they've wrestled, HHH has always made him his bitch. In 2004. In 2006. In 2009. Orton lost almost every match they ever had, other than like maybe 2 -- one of which was after HHH had already beat him and Umaga earlier in the same night. -Punk. No explanation needed. -Brock. Destroyed Brock's aura and attraction appeal weith his shitty 80's Crockett-era snooze fests. But hey, the Asskicker was back! Ahem. I'm probably forgetting like 20.
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kevin
El Dandy
Posts: 7,516
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Post by kevin on Nov 4, 2013 2:36:01 GMT -5
A thousand times yes. Unless you are using some really wacky criteria you would have a very hard time making a non absurd top 50 list that did not have Triple H.
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Post by CM Parish on Nov 4, 2013 7:36:54 GMT -5
I just came into a thread and saw someone list Brian Kendrick above HHH in a list of the "greatest of all time".
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mcstoklasa
Hank Scorpio
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Post by mcstoklasa on Nov 4, 2013 9:00:50 GMT -5
Yes.
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spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
Posts: 5,667
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Post by spagett on Nov 4, 2013 9:09:49 GMT -5
I think it's pretty pathetic that people talk about his "ego" and hold grudges against him like he somehow wronged them personally. It's bizarre. I don't get wrestling fans sometimes. I do love how he's taking all of it in stride and incorporating it into his act on TV though. I think it stems from the perception that HHH has used political stroke to hold down certain acts some felt deserved to be on top; and the fact that his marriage has pretty much guaranteed him preferential treatment and booking. He's the ultimate "have". And the argument can be made that that the only person to truly benefit from a HHH "job" was Batista in the last decade. -Jericho was always booked as his bitch. - Booker T. If they knew Goldberg was coming in two months prior to him showing up, why did they still have HHH do the race angle? HHH winning that match, with that storyline, rightfully left a bad taste in most people's mouths. -Benoit. HHH continued to be the main RAW attraction while Benoit was off floating around doing midcard matches. - Cena; some might say that HHH jobbing to Cena was "putting him over", but if you go back and watch the build, HHH was actually directly responsible for the "you can't wrestle" bullshit that still plagues Cena today. He flat out coined it. HHH was such a shitty heel in that build, that he convinced crowds who were riding the fence already to really turn on Cena. - Jeff Hardy. People who say HHH "put him over" always make me laugh. HHH did one job to him in late 2007, laughed, and sold it like Jeff winning was a fluke. Fast forward a year, and HHH beat Jeff in every match they had, until Jeff finally won the WWE Title off of HHH -- by pinning EDGE in a three way match. -Orton. Whenever they've wrestled, HHH has always made him his bitch. In 2004. In 2006. In 2009. Orton lost almost every match they ever had, other than like maybe 2 -- one of which was after HHH had already beat him and Umaga earlier in the same night. -Punk. No explanation needed. -Brock. Destroyed Brock's aura and attraction appeal weith his shitty 80's Crockett-era snooze fests. But hey, the Asskicker was back! Ahem. I'm probably forgetting like 20. Totally agree. That and Triple H's insistence in inserting himself in whatever the hottest angle of the moment is. The Punk stuff, Brock Lesnar returning and now the stuff with Bryan. It never ends well either, how the Punk Pipebomb stuff ended in a Kevin Nash vs HHH ladder match is incredible to me. How was that a natural conclusion?
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 4, 2013 9:38:43 GMT -5
Yes he is. The problem is he's now portrayed as a top 10 wrestler when he's top 30 at best. He's a taller version of Jeff Jarrett, a guy that works with the guy that people are paying to see, but for the longest time now he's been painted as superior to everyone else, as though someone merged Ric Flair, Harley Race and Jesus and popped them in a wrestling ring. The WWE have protected him for years now, often to the detriment of the product given how he plowed through face after face when the WWE needed new main event talent, but there is always some excuse.
He's going to keep going and going though, in the hopes that someday the crowd will chant 'Thankyou Hunter' or 'One more match', but that's never going to happen as while you can force the audience to react to you, you can't force the audience to respect you.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 4, 2013 9:41:44 GMT -5
this; the company's never really recovered from the Reign of Terror. I was watching with my friend who doesn't watch anymore a couple weeks back and he just rolled his eyes and seemed mystified that the show was still being built around the guy. and I say this as a fan of the guy. his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since. he was, as Cornette put it "the guy who wrestles the guy that actually makes money" and he totally shit the bed when it was his turn. if he were anyone else he would've been pushed down. "his 2-3 years on top did more damage to the company than anyone before or since." That's a fine example of how folks exaggerate when it comes to Triple H. Chris Benoit? fair enough. but leaving aside the guy who murdered his family, I stand by what I said. all my friends who used to watch dumped the product during Trips' time on top and never came back. and when I DO get one of them too watch it with me, he sneers at the idea of Triple H still being on top in some capacity. the sad thing is, I was initially enjoying his evil authority figure role at first, but as the story continues it's just more of the same "I can't ever look bad in my fake wrestling story even though I'm the bad guy" ego trip. I don't think he really understands what a heel's supposed to do. he knows how to make people hate him, but that's only part of being a heel. you'd think he'd know better considering how much he idolizes Ric Flair.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 10:05:59 GMT -5
HHH doesn't convey vulnerability as a face and doesn't show enough weakness as a heel. He cannot play either role effectively, outside of maybe his 2000 run, and that is a big reason why he is not a major star (despite being pushed like one). People hate on Hogan, but watch his heel Hollywood run. He was more of a coward than a mid-card heel, and that was coming off more than a decade as a superhero babyface. He knew how wrestling worked. HHH for as smart as he is can't book himself in a way that makes anyone but himself look good.
Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. He is the poster boy for "jack of all trades, master of none". Very average overall. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 4, 2013 10:16:05 GMT -5
Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. ? I can understand saying that he's not RESPONSIBLE for any, although I dispute even that, but saying that he's not had any is ridiculous. The street fight at the 2000 Rumble alone. The three stages of hell with Austin at No Way Out 2001. The ladder match with Rock at Summerslam '98. The Backlash 2000 match with Rock. Hell ANY match with Rock.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 10:23:55 GMT -5
It depends on how much you limit the list.
If you're going by 1)US-based, 2)national promotions 3)in the last 15 years, then probably so. Take any single one of those qualifiers out, and probably not.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
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Post by Sparkybob on Nov 4, 2013 10:40:15 GMT -5
Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. ? I can understand saying that he's not RESPONSIBLE for any, although I dispute even that, but saying that he's not had any is ridiculous. The street fight at the 2000 Rumble alone. The three stages of hell with Austin at No Way Out 2001. The ladder match with Rock at Summerslam '98. The Backlash 2000 match with Rock. Hell ANY match with Rock. Also including, His match with HBK at summerslam 2002. His last man standing match with HBK at the royal rumble. His 2 triple threat matches with krispen Wah and HBK. His HIAC with Batista. The 2 man power trip match vs Jericho/Krispen His last 2 mania matches with Taker. Heck the DX vs legacy matches were good as well. It's one thing to not like the guy, it's another to deny he hasn't had great matches.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 10:48:22 GMT -5
Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. ? I can understand saying that he's not RESPONSIBLE for any, although I dispute even that, but saying that he's not had any is ridiculous. The street fight at the 2000 Rumble alone. The three stages of hell with Austin at No Way Out 2001. The ladder match with Rock at Summerslam '98. The Backlash 2000 match with Rock. Hell ANY match with Rock. I always use this example in these discussions, but I will use it again. Warrior was featured on a Canadian talk show recently, and he was introduced as the man who beat Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania. Regardless of what you think of him, Warrior had at least one match that people will talk about and remember 20+ years after it happened. The matches you bring up are barely referenced today, nor do they have the iconic memorable aura of other big matches. They were just good matches that happened. People still reference Sting/Flair, even those too young to have been alive back then. There are matches, storylines, promos, etc, that age well and/or remain timeless. HHH hasn't even involved in any of them.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 4, 2013 10:56:20 GMT -5
? I can understand saying that he's not RESPONSIBLE for any, although I dispute even that, but saying that he's not had any is ridiculous. The street fight at the 2000 Rumble alone. The three stages of hell with Austin at No Way Out 2001. The ladder match with Rock at Summerslam '98. The Backlash 2000 match with Rock. Hell ANY match with Rock. I always use this example in these discussions, but I will use it again. Warrior was featured on a Canadian talk show recently, and he was introduced as the man who beat Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania. Regardless of what you think of him, Warrior had at least one match that people will talk about and remember 20+ years after it happened. The matches you bring up are barely referenced today, nor do they have the iconic memorable aura of other big matches. They were just good matches that happened. People still reference Sting/Flair, even those too young to have been alive back then. There are matches, storylines, promos, etc, that age well and/or remain timeless. HHH hasn't even involved in any of them. I still dispute that for the Street Fight alone, which Foley has been dining out on for well over a decade and gets brought up all the time. I don't know who you mean by 'people' unless we're hanging out on different forums, because I've not seen Sting/Flair referenced in months. The Backlash match gets mentioned on a monthly basis round here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 11:05:53 GMT -5
I always use this example in these discussions, but I will use it again. Warrior was featured on a Canadian talk show recently, and he was introduced as the man who beat Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania. Regardless of what you think of him, Warrior had at least one match that people will talk about and remember 20+ years after it happened. The matches you bring up are barely referenced today, nor do they have the iconic memorable aura of other big matches. They were just good matches that happened. People still reference Sting/Flair, even those too young to have been alive back then. There are matches, storylines, promos, etc, that age well and/or remain timeless. HHH hasn't even involved in any of them. I still dispute that for the Street Fight alone, which Foley has been dining out on for well over a decade and gets brought up all the time. I don't know who you mean by 'people' unless we're hanging out on different forums, because I've not seen Sting/Flair referenced in months. The Backlash match gets mentioned on a monthly basis round here. Flair/Sting is usually mentioned when someone young needs to be out over by a main eventer. I'm not saying it is brought up every week or anything, just that when looking at Sting's career, that and his feud with Hogan during his Crow phase are the memorable moments. With HHH, he doesn't have that match or moment where 20 years from now people are going to bring it up as a universally iconic moment. He has tried to manufacture them (his matches with Taker recently), but he still doesn't have it. His backlash match with Rock is more memorable for the pop Austin got, not for the match itself.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 4, 2013 11:06:20 GMT -5
Probably but he's quite low on the list. He's been there for god knows how long but he's ever been the bride, or even the bridesmaid. For the audience he's always been the guy in the background. Has an air of familiarty about him but the likes of Hogan, Warrior, Flair, Sting, Rhodes, Taker, Piper, Andre, Savage, Austin, Rock, Cena, Lesnar, Foley, Hart, Michaels and a few others besides have a far, far greater impact on popular culture/television.
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 28,717
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Post by 4real on Nov 4, 2013 11:24:10 GMT -5
As much as I dislike the guy (he may be my least favourite wrestler ever) I can't deny he deserves a place in the top 50 and he's had loads of great matches. For me he was always the guy who beat my favourite wrestler whether it was Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Kane, RVD, Orton, Punk etc. It was always him. Maybe thats why I dislike him so much.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 4, 2013 11:31:27 GMT -5
My biggest issue with HHH wasn't that he held people down - after all if you're the guy who makes the money you call the shots e.g Hogan/Austin etc. But the fact business NOSEDIVED with him at the helm and the only response was to keep on feeding him victims. The slump of the early to mid 2000s could have been avoided if they moved away from the 'wwHHHd' mindset. It was as if they were terrified of trying something that might actually work.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 4, 2013 11:34:52 GMT -5
HHH doesn't convey vulnerability as a face and doesn't show enough weakness as a heel. He cannot play either role effectively, outside of maybe his 2000 run, and that is a big reason why he is not a major star (despite being pushed like one). People hate on Hogan, but watch his heel Hollywood run. He was more of a coward than a mid-card heel, and that was coming off more than a decade as a superhero babyface. He knew how wrestling worked. HHH for as smart as he is can't book himself in a way that makes anyone but himself look good. Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. He is the poster boy for "jack of all trades, master of none". Very average overall. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree. While I agree with most of your points, I watched Hogan as a heel and must say that him the way he spent most of the matches stalling and only ever losing through outside interference was every bit as bad, not to mention as painfully dull as Triple H's schtick. Losing through interference every now and again is fine if you're a face trying to preserve a superhuman aura of invincibility, but when a heel spends most of a match stalling and cowering yet can only ever be beaten with interference it gets every bit as grating as HHH's 20 minute promos and beating all comers. People say he put over Goldberg huge, when it was the jobbers and midcarders who he squashed that did that, Hogan 'put him over' by engaging in a short feud which ended in a match on free TV, rather than in a venue where it could have drawn money, a match that Hogan lost thanks to outside interference because he was distracted by a celebrity. Ugh.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 4, 2013 12:11:23 GMT -5
HHH doesn't convey vulnerability as a face and doesn't show enough weakness as a heel. He cannot play either role effectively, outside of maybe his 2000 run, and that is a big reason why he is not a major star (despite being pushed like one). People hate on Hogan, but watch his heel Hollywood run. He was more of a coward than a mid-card heel, and that was coming off more than a decade as a superhero babyface. He knew how wrestling worked. HHH for as smart as he is can't book himself in a way that makes anyone but himself look good. Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. He is the poster boy for "jack of all trades, master of none". Very average overall. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree. While I agree with most of your points, I watched Hogan as a heel and must say that him the way he spent most of the matches stalling and only ever losing through outside interference was every bit as bad, not to mention as painfully dull as Triple H's schtick. Losing through interference every now and again is fine if you're a face trying to preserve a superhuman aura of invincibility, but when a heel spends most of a match stalling and cowering yet can only ever be beaten with interference it gets every bit as grating as HHH's 20 minute promos and beating all comers. People say he put over Goldberg huge, when it was the jobbers and midcarders who he squashed that did that, Hogan 'put him over' by engaging in a short feud which ended in a match on free TV, rather than in a venue where it could have drawn money, a match that Hogan lost thanks to outside interference because he was distracted by a celebrity. Ugh. I'll agree to that. Hogan still mostly made people look like crap when he actually wrestled them. there's more to being a great heel than making people dislike you. anyone can do that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 12:41:40 GMT -5
HHH doesn't convey vulnerability as a face and doesn't show enough weakness as a heel. He cannot play either role effectively, outside of maybe his 2000 run, and that is a big reason why he is not a major star (despite being pushed like one). People hate on Hogan, but watch his heel Hollywood run. He was more of a coward than a mid-card heel, and that was coming off more than a decade as a superhero babyface. He knew how wrestling worked. HHH for as smart as he is can't book himself in a way that makes anyone but himself look good. Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. He is the poster boy for "jack of all trades, master of none". Very average overall. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree. While I agree with most of your points, I watched Hogan as a heel and must say that him the way he spent most of the matches stalling and only ever losing through outside interference was every bit as bad, not to mention as painfully dull as Triple H's schtick. Losing through interference every now and again is fine if you're a face trying to preserve a superhuman aura of invincibility, but when a heel spends most of a match stalling and cowering yet can only ever be beaten with interference it gets every bit as grating as HHH's 20 minute promos and beating all comers. People say he put over Goldberg huge, when it was the jobbers and midcarders who he squashed that did that, Hogan 'put him over' by engaging in a short feud which ended in a match on free TV, rather than in a venue where it could have drawn money, a match that Hogan lost thanks to outside interference because he was distracted by a celebrity. Ugh. Hogan lost clean plenty of times in WCW. The Goldberg match had Golberg kick out of three leg drops, which the camera ignored in favor of watching Hennig walking to the ring. Hogan being distracted by Malone wasn't really an out for Hogan as his finisher was already deemed insufficient, and Goldberg popped right back up to Spear him seconds later. If Hogan wanted to lose uncleanly, then they could have had Malone stop the pin after the leg drop, or something far worse. I think people remember the Starrcade finish and use that against Hulk, but his jobs in WCW (as a heel) were usually clean, or pretty darn close to it. His wins had more chaos than Russo finishes, so he rarely won clean as a heel (if ever). My point was more of how Hogan acted. He talked a big game but when left to fend for himself he ran like a coward. I remember the Giant grabbed him by the throat one time and Hogan was crying to let him go. I mean it was a pretty big stretch for Hogan to turn coward after so many years as a dominating face, but he made it work. Whereas HHH talked a big game and then the babyfaces would talk about how great he is, and then HHH would win relatively cleanly. Hogan got his comeuppance by Piper, Luger, Sting, Goldberg, etc. HHH rarely did, outside of Batista.
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