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Post by machomuta on Nov 4, 2013 15:12:43 GMT -5
HHH has no place on a top 50 list based on match quality or promos.
He was not even a great draw. His 2003 run didnt draw anything big.
HHH is Jeff Jarrett with a bigger nose.
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Post by sportatorium on Nov 4, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5
I think defining what characteristics make a top 50 wrestler. HHH has wrestled many more world title/main event matches than Arn Anderson. Who between those two would you choose to send out to cut a go home promo for a PPV, putting a less established guy over & get great heat from the crowd, face or heel?
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 4, 2013 16:16:11 GMT -5
HHH doesn't convey vulnerability as a face and doesn't show enough weakness as a heel. He cannot play either role effectively, outside of maybe his 2000 run, and that is a big reason why he is not a major star (despite being pushed like one). People hate on Hogan, but watch his heel Hollywood run. He was more of a coward than a mid-card heel, and that was coming off more than a decade as a superhero babyface. He knew how wrestling worked. HHH for as smart as he is can't book himself in a way that makes anyone but himself look good. Combine that with the fact that he has never had a timeless, memorable match, and I'm surprised people believe the hype. He is the poster boy for "jack of all trades, master of none". Very average overall. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree. I think HHH might be the biggest mark for himself in wrestling history as far as main eventers go. Hell, when he gives promos, no one really is allowed to poke holes in his facade. Plus, in addition to almost always winning matches he should be losing, he never really puts over his opposition as anything special, win or lose. To me, that's always been his biggest flaw. He tears down, rather than builds up. He does not take a page from his hero Ric Flair and realize that painting your opposition as great, makes you look great when you win. In HHH's case, he always has to have that irritating 'too cool for school' attitude. In the 80's Flair sold every match as if he was fighting someone who may have his number. And you believed by proxy that a Ricky Morton had a shot. It only helped build the match. If HHH was in the same role, he'd make fun of Ricky's physique, haircut, and insist that a tag teamer had no business getting into the ring with him. Then HHH would win, and everyone would look bad. The fact that H's can't seem to grasp this universal wrestling concept baffles me.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 4, 2013 16:27:52 GMT -5
I think it would be really interesting to see how the answer to this question might differ depending upon when one started watching wrestling, like people who started watching 85-89, 90-94, 95-99, 00-04, 05-09, 10-present. People in the latter groups I imagine would be far more likely to answer yes to this question, and it wouldn't be their fault really. The average totalitarian dictatorship produces less propaganda about how great their leader is than WWE has material enshrining HHH as a f***ing god among men, when I think he is a symbol of mediocrity for those who can put on da glasses.
However, 50 is a lot of people, I think he might squeak by but he would not be high on a legitimate list.
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BigJerichool222
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Post by BigJerichool222 on Nov 4, 2013 16:35:45 GMT -5
If Triple H can't or barely makes top 50 because of his backstage attitude, then Shawn Michaels should realistically barely break top 30 given the shit he pulled in the 90s.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 4, 2013 16:46:28 GMT -5
I think it would be really interesting to see how the answer to this question might differ depending upon when one started watching wrestling, like people who started watching 85-89, 90-94, 95-99, 00-04, 05-09, 10-present. People in the latter groups I imagine would be far more likely to answer yes to this question, and it wouldn't be their fault really. The average totalitarian dictatorship produces less propaganda about how great their leader is than WWE has material enshrining HHH as a f***ing god among men, when I think he is a symbol of mediocrity for those who can put on da glasses. However, 50 is a lot of people, I think he might squeak by but he would not be high on a legitimate list. You'd be correct, and it'd be a fascinating survey. I grew up in the 80's, and love baseball. My father grew up in the 50's and was also a baseball fan. He would tell me about the greats he watched, and though I knew the names, I couldn't make a tangible connection. I have gone back and watched video, and while it increases my appreciation for them and makes me realize how great they were, some leagues just didn't have that. Worth of mouth is all we have on the old Negro Leagues and how amazing Josh Gibson or Satchel Page were. Not to correlate that to, say the mid-Atlantic or Portland territories, but if I tell some young kid that Ernie Ladd was fifty times the performer Triple H was, how much video evidence is out there that I can use? The WWE controls the market, he who wins gets to write the history books, and so we have people about to break Ric Flair's "16-time World Champion" record even though he won his 17th title live on Nitro when Kevin Nash handed him the belt. I saw it, they announced it, but WCW isn't around so...the record is 16. Triple H is an Attitude Era star, when ratings were huge and they demolished WCW. He was part of DX, which makes constant comebacks to remind the young fans that they existed. Thus, the young fans know that during that time, wrestling was HUGE and DX was a major part of that, so Triple H, as the last standing member, more or less, for that entire era, has to be the best of the lot, by proxy. We say today "Harley Race was an 8 time champion" and I'm willing to bet younger fans will just shrug since there are guys who have been around for less than a decade with that many championship runs. Saw an interview with Bruno Mars where he mentioned he was named after "some fat old wrestler". 40 years ago, Bruno wasn't just "some wrestler dude in high school gyms", he was a demi-god. Ditto for Pedro Morales, or Antonio Rocca, or so many more. Lou Theze wrestled his last match at like 78 or something, it's on Youtube, and while it's no five star classic, it'd be good enough to be on RAW tonight. Terry Funk still wrestles matches that would draw on PPV and I'm pretty sure he's been dead for 20 years. Yet to most young fans, if they've heard of him, he's just the crazy guy in barb wire, not the dude who was legitimately feared in the territories because he played crazy that well but didn't need barbwire to make you take a step back from the guardrail. I know this has turned into an old man post, and I'm sorry for that, but it just kinda happened.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 4, 2013 16:57:19 GMT -5
If Triple H can't or barely makes top 50 because of his backstage attitude, then Shawn Michaels should realistically barely break top 30 given the shit he pulled in the 90s. It might help that Shawn is probably five to ten times the performer HHH is. I love the talk of bootstraps mcgee HHH pulled himself up all on his own long before Stephanie came along, disregarding that he immediately made best friends with the top guy in the company and was in the inner circle as early as 1997. If HHH excels at anything it is networking. Networking is what has earned his career and his spot on the list, as a presence in pro wrestling. If we were talking wrestling ability then like, I don't even know how many people would earn a spot above this guy.
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BigJerichool222
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Post by BigJerichool222 on Nov 4, 2013 17:09:38 GMT -5
disregarding that he immediately made best friends with the top guy in the company and was in the inner circle as early as 1997. If HHH excels at anything it is networking. Well if the Triple H DVD is to be believed (and I wouldn't blame anyone for not believing it), The Kliq grabbed Hunter the second he went to WWF because they all watched WCW Saturday Night together and were fans of his. Also he didn't drink so they had a designated driver, which might be the REAL reason he was part of the group to begin with, actually. But then again this is the story from a WWE produced documentary putting HHH in a positive light, so who knows.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 4, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5
disregarding that he immediately made best friends with the top guy in the company and was in the inner circle as early as 1997. If HHH excels at anything it is networking. Well if the Triple H DVD is to be believed (and I wouldn't blame anyone for not believing it), The Kliq grabbed Hunter the second he went to WWF because they all watched WCW Saturday Night together and were fans of his. Also he didn't drink so they had a designated driver, which might be the REAL reason he was part of the group to begin with, actually. But then again this is the story from a WWE produced documentary putting HHH in a positive light, so who knows. Whether he sought them out or they sought him out, for whatever reason, prrrrobably gave him a bit of career support, no?
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BigJerichool222
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Post by BigJerichool222 on Nov 4, 2013 17:11:52 GMT -5
Well if the Triple H DVD is to be believed (and I wouldn't blame anyone for not believing it), The Kliq grabbed Hunter the second he went to WWF because they all watched WCW Saturday Night together and were fans of his. Also he didn't drink so they had a designated driver, which might be the REAL reason he was part of the group to begin with, actually. But then again this is the story from a WWE produced documentary putting HHH in a positive light, so who knows. Whether he sought them out or they sought him out, for whatever reason, prrrrobably gave him a bit of career support, no? Oh, absolutely.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Nov 4, 2013 17:13:29 GMT -5
Hunter's run during 2000-2002 was amazing stuff. He was an amazing heel, could generate heat, was having entertaining matches, and played the role of the disgusting bastard heel to perfection. But I think in his mind and what eats at him the most is he'll never be ranked with the likes of Hogan, Rock, Austin, Bret, Goldberg, Taker, Angle, and even Lesnar. He wants to present himself as being deserving and in their league, but when push comes to shove, he'll never be as respected as they are because his ego won't allow him to put over new and deserving talent or showcase weakness.
I think that's why he tends to get involved when new, exciting, and fresh feuds develop so he can take away all of their heat because he wants the attention on him. The truth is if he was as great, entertaining, and "one of the greatest of all time" then he wouldn't feel the need to elevate himself above new and upcoming talent. He'd put them over, make them look better, and endorse them. I honestly believe that Jericho, Jeff Hardy, and even Punk would've been unstoppable and pushed correctly if Hunter actually put them over.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 4, 2013 17:28:12 GMT -5
Hunter's run during 2000-2002 was amazing stuff. He was an amazing heel, could generate heat, was having entertaining matches, and played the role of the disgusting bastard heel to perfection. But I think in his mind and what eats at him the most is he'll never be ranked with the likes of Hogan, Rock, Austin, Bret, Goldberg, Taker, Angle, and even Lesnar. He wants to present himself as being deserving and in their league, but when push comes to shove, he'll never be as respected as they are because his ego won't allow him to put over new and deserving talent or showcase weakness. I think that's why he tends to get involved when new, exciting, and fresh feuds develop so he can take away all of their heat because he wants the attention on him. The truth is if he was as great, entertaining, and "one of the greatest of all time" then he wouldn't feel the need to elevate himself above new and upcoming talent. He'd put them over, make them look better, and endorse them. I honestly believe that Jericho, Jeff Hardy, and even Punk would've been unstoppable and pushed correctly if Hunter actually put them over. But, but HHH had to pin CM Punk, he didn't even want to, it didn't mean nothin anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 20:51:49 GMT -5
If Triple H can't or barely makes top 50 because of his backstage attitude, then Shawn Michaels should realistically barely break top 30 given the shit he pulled in the 90s. It's not just his backstage attitude. It's in context to all the other things Hunner does. He can't cut an effective heel promo when you think about it. He's not an effective heel in general. So it's really a thing when people say they prefer Heel Hunner to Face Hunner. "Getting heat" is always going to translate to "say something meta and undercutting." Again, the only adjective I really use to seriously describe Hunner anymore is "pathetic." It's like he's done it for so long and nobody has been in the position to tell him to cut that shit out, he can't help himself. That's why I had that nagging feeling in the back of my mind about this whole Bryan vs. The Authority angle; I braced myself for what was likely to happen the minute Hunner got mic time opposite Daniel Bryan and practically begged for CM Punk to be brought in. Although Punk wouldn't have the reign Hunner has (even during the Summer of Punk angle, CM Punk never harpooned the shit out of Hunner's credibility) he's at least good enough. Because Hunner was going to call Bryan a troll. Hunner was going to say he was second rate. All while he gives him these faint-praise remarks about how Bryan's a good wrestler or he doesn't give up. Dude, NO. How the hell is the very bearded, very angry and very short Daniel Bryan really going to fight against Hunner saying he's an ugly troll every 30 minutes? Say Bryan's anger makes him unstable, insubordinate, unsuitable to be an A+ Player. Say Bryan can't beat Randy Orton one-on-one when it matters, while you blatantly and not-so-blatantly interfere in matches to keep the title on him. Just...ANYTHING Bryan can directly fight against. People will hate heel Hunner. People will likely watch his matches because Hunner matches will always have the entire WWE Machine behind them with the pomp, circumstance, elaborate sets, cool music and blacklight body glitter. It just doesn't make the other guy look better in a Hunner feud and for a guy who ties himself in knots to get in to the hot angles, I'd forgive so damned much from him if Hunner just...wasn't the biggest mark for himself and that was reflected in every feud he's had for nearly a decade. The reason I wouldn't argue against someone saying colossal asshole, HBK would be on that list or perennial whiner Bret Hart is that..honestly...Bret Hart and HBK are two of the best wrestlers to have ever done it. Ever. If Hunner in-ring had the massive upside HBK and Hart had, then I'd understand people being forgiving of him. Hunner is just not in their league and for Hunner's massive cons to be weighed out, he'd have to have HBK talent.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Nov 4, 2013 20:52:37 GMT -5
He's realistically a top 20.
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Post by britishbulldog on Nov 4, 2013 21:50:34 GMT -5
"He is the guy that works with the guy" is such a bad argument. Piper was exactly that guy and he is considered one of the all time greats. He was instrumental in the rise of the Rock. It was his feud that got him going all the way up to the main event at which time the Rock really started with Austin. Batista was made by him, Orton was singled out by him as the future. He was hands down the best heel I have seen in 20 years. Before the recent heel turn he was one of the most over guys on the roster and always got a huge pop. The MSG return is still on of the biggest pops I've seen. Definitely a top 20 guy over the last 25 years.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 22:10:01 GMT -5
If Triple H can't or barely makes top 50 because of his backstage attitude, then Shawn Michaels should realistically barely break top 30 given the shit he pulled in the 90s. It might help that Shawn is probably five to ten times the performer HHH is. I love the talk of bootstraps mcgee HHH pulled himself up all on his own long before Stephanie came along, disregarding that he immediately made best friends with the top guy in the company and was in the inner circle as early as 1997. If HHH excels at anything it is networking. Networking is what has earned his career and his spot on the list, as a presence in pro wrestling. If we were talking wrestling ability then like, I don't even know how many people would earn a spot above this guy. Agreed. HHH used people to improve his status more than anyone in wrestling. The blatant revisionism of DX is astonishing to me. HHH was Shawn's lackey in 1997. There is no sugar coating that. HHH just tried to siphon as much of Shawn's heat as he could until he was able to break out on his own in Shawn's absence, and yet today we are supposed to believe HHH was the leader of DX from the beginning. Then he was underwhelming as a main eventer in 1999 before the Stephanie angle, which ultimately lead to his best run (2000) and subsequently his role in pro wrestling today. Not that there is anything wrong with that, he used his networking ability to make himself rich and in the place he is today, but his place in wrestling from a historical standpoint is incredibly manufactured. Most are smart enough to see through it, but to many others, if the WWE says it, then it must be true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 23:27:53 GMT -5
If Triple H can't or barely makes top 50 because of his backstage attitude, then Shawn Michaels should realistically barely break top 30 given the shit he pulled in the 90s. It's not just his backstage attitude. It's in context to all the other things Hunner does. He can't cut an effective heel promo when you think about it. He's not an effective heel in general. So it's really a thing when people say they prefer Heel Hunner to Face Hunner. "Getting heat" is always going to translate to "say something meta and undercutting." Again, the only adjective I really use to seriously describe Hunner anymore is "pathetic." It's like he's done it for so long and nobody has been in the position to tell him to cut that shit out, he can't help himself. That's why I had that nagging feeling in the back of my mind about this whole Bryan vs. The Authority angle; I braced myself for what was likely to happen the minute Hunner got mic time opposite Daniel Bryan and practically begged for CM Punk to be brought in. Although Punk wouldn't have the reign Hunner has (even during the Summer of Punk angle, CM Punk never harpooned the shit out of Hunner's credibility) he's at least good enough. Because Hunner was going to call Bryan a troll. Hunner was going to say he was second rate. All while he gives him these faint-praise remarks about how Bryan's a good wrestler or he doesn't give up. Dude, NO. How the hell is the very bearded, very angry and very short Daniel Bryan really going to fight against Hunner saying he's an ugly troll every 30 minutes? Say Bryan's anger makes him unstable, insubordinate, unsuitable to be an A+ Player. Say Bryan can't beat Randy Orton one-on-one when it matters, while you blatantly and not-so-blatantly interfere in matches to keep the title on him. Just...ANYTHING Bryan can directly fight against. People will hate heel Hunner. People will likely watch his matches because Hunner matches will always have the entire WWE Machine behind them with the pomp, circumstance, elaborate sets, cool music and blacklight body glitter. It just doesn't make the other guy look better in a Hunner feud and for a guy who ties himself in knots to get in to the hot angles, I'd forgive so damned much from him if Hunner just...wasn't the biggest mark for himself and that was reflected in every feud he's had for nearly a decade. The reason I wouldn't argue against someone saying colossal asshole, HBK would be on that list or perennial whiner Bret Hart is that..honestly...Bret Hart and HBK are two of the best wrestlers to have ever done it. Ever. If Hunner in-ring had the massive upside HBK and Hart had, then I'd understand people being forgiving of him. Hunner is just not in their league and for Hunner's massive cons to be weighed out, he'd have to have HBK talent. Forget Hunter. You truly are the King of Kings. Meanwhile I'm going to be laughing at the phrase "blacklight body glitter" for days.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Nov 5, 2013 9:43:33 GMT -5
I think it's pretty pathetic that people talk about his "ego" and hold grudges against him like he somehow wronged them personally. It's bizarre. I don't get wrestling fans sometimes. I do love how he's taking all of it in stride and incorporating it into his act on TV though. - Cena; some might say that HHH jobbing to Cena was "putting him over", but if you go back and watch the build, HHH was actually directly responsible for the "you can't wrestle" bullshit that still plagues Cena today. He flat out coined it. HHH was such a shitty heel in that build, that he convinced crowds who were riding the fence already to really turn on Cena. I found funny that one of the IWC favorite criticism of cena was started for HHH
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Nov 5, 2013 18:25:16 GMT -5
Top 50 from the first WM? Yeah. Not a fan of his, but he would belong there.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Nov 5, 2013 18:40:42 GMT -5
His mainstream impact for someone who has been at the forefront of the industry in one form or another for the best part of 15 years or so, is phenomenally underwhelming. I think that tells you something.
He's a good wrestler who understands how to tell a story in the ring for the live and TV audience but for me he was always the warm up guy at the comedy club who moonlights occasionally as the star billing because his wife owns the club rather than someone who you'd identify as someone who is there on merit. He should have been the guy there to enhance what you see rather than being the focal point of it.
A heel dominating the belt was and since has been fairly unusual for WWE. Alien to its audience. When you think of all the great, GREAT heel characters who never got epically long title runs because it was likely deemed not suitable for the product or demographic, the fact that 'rule' was broken for HHH does stick in the throat a bit and begs the obvious questions.
Top 50? Yes. Top 30 definitely.
Top 20? Pushing it.
Top 10? No chance.
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