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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 9, 2013 11:23:15 GMT -5
one question I have about hero. I don't watch indies or NXT but looking at his top moves list and wiki aren't an absurdly high number of his moves based off the cravate? Not really. In the last few years, a good chunk of his moveset was based around elbow strikes.
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Post by rybackrulez on Nov 9, 2013 11:27:16 GMT -5
And lots of spinning
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Nov 9, 2013 11:30:05 GMT -5
I see both sides to some degree. First of all, I saw Chris Hero live in ROH and was very happy he signed. Same as with Ambrose and Harper, who I had seen in person and thought of highly. On the other hand, I'm not an Indies Uber Allus type who thinks that every time an indy star doesn't make it in WWE means WWE screwed up. To use your band analogy, there's a difference between rocking out a bar or small music hall and doing the same thing in a basketball-sized arena and still another thing to do it and get over in front of a stadium audience. Some bands are great at what they do but don't translate as well on the "big stage." And it doesn't mean the promoter or record company screwed up if they couldn't sell a million records. I think a lot of what you are talking about is backlash against the "WWE doesn't know what they're doing, if they can't see that this guy is 1,000 times better than John Cena (or whoever) it just proves their incompetence." Maybe Kaz or Colt Cabana are very good at what they do but not have what WWE wants or what WWE thinks will sell. And they just might have a good understanding of that. I do think "phenomenon" of people who are really into the indies criticizing someone like Damien Sandow for spending so long in developmental before getting over on the main roster is just as "strange" -- just like a guy who toils 10 years in the indies to get better and what he does and gets a shot, a guy like Sandow has spent a long time working hard in the "minor leagues" for his big chance, and when the Sandow character was taking off I remember numerous posts pointing out the fact that he was a "Developmental Lifer" suggesting that it was wrong to bring him up when they should have instead elevated ______ (insert former indy star here). There is also the "strange phenomenon" of indy fans who maintain that WWE tries to keep indy heroes down after they sign them -- and do so while CM Punk and Bryan are two of the biggest stars on the roster, with Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins getting major, major pushes from the minute they got called up. Just because every indy star doesn't make it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the fact that they came from the indies -- as these cases prove. I think what you're talking about is just the other side of the coin of the "indy star worship" from that subsect. Good points. Like you, I am not Mr. Indy Guy. I dont' catch many indy shows, I would like to but money/time/etc. Usually I hear about people on here and check them out. I happen to like a lot of the indy guys that come down the pike, for whatever reason. I guess it's just what I look for in wrestlers, they've usually got it. I like skilled athletes that can adapt to different situations and have their own style. Wrestlers with experience outside of WWE seem to have a strong sense of who they are and what they want to accomplish in the ring and as characters, and it makes sense because they had to learn how to do that in order to sell themselves. Some of the WWE-bred guys seemed to be more manufactured and generic, though that has changed recently. I really like Bray Wyatt, Dolph Ziggler, Big E Langston, Cody Rhodes, all these guys are WWE-lifers. As far as the Sandow thing, I don't remember many of those posts saying "why would you push this guy it took him forever to get out of developmental". Not saying it didn't happen, it just wasn't a prevailing opinion that I was aware of. Once he did get to the main stage, most people agree that he's done a fantastic job and deserves his push, probably an even stronger one. He excels at everything he does, to me he's got main event written all over him. I agree that being in devleopmental isn't as respected as being in the indies. That likely does come down to somewhat of a glorification to be on the indy circuit and wrestle all around the world and learn different styles and claw your way up. It's romantic and inspiring, it fires people up. It's a good story, it's why people are bummed about Ohno getting cut after the journey he's been on, his talent notwithstanding. I see your point though, being in developmental all that time is hard work too, probably a hell of a lot more frustrating, and shouldn't be disparaged or minimized. What it comes down to, I think, is both sides needing to take things more on a case-by-case basis. Not every indy guy sucks, not all of them are awesome. Not all of them are over-pushed, not all of them are held-down. Same with non-indy guys, second gen wrestlers, old wrestlers, young wrestlers, whatever. You and I have debated over Daniel Bryan's push as of late, I'm not coming at that from "WWE's hatin' on mah indy guys!" point-of-view, I'm just calling that as I see it, and so are you. That's healthy debate, and I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem when I'm told why I feel the way I do in a condescending matter, or when it happens to others. Even if it's not necessarily directed at me, it makes the board a lot less fun to read. This is the only forum or any social media type thing I use, and it's always been pretty cool around here, but lately there's been a more pronounced "smark vs. not-a-smark" than usual, imo. The TNA section got pretty bad for a while because it every negative comment about TNA would turn into a "you're just a TNA hater" argument, and I don't want that to happen here. We can all do better and be more respectful. I know I can be a dick, so I'm trying to be better about that, and I appreciate others that do too. Seriously good post. I see a lot of posts on this thread from both points of view, and I also see a lot of people who have watched him on NXT and didn't think much of his work (or his look). His "obvious talent" referred to above by a poster wasn't obvious to everyone. What I know about him comes from seeing him (live and a few DVDs) before he went to WWE because I don't watch NXT apart from a match here or there. If he didn't make it (this time), hey, he got a shot and it didn't work out. It doesn't mean he is incompetent and it doesn't mean the WWE is incompetent.
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Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Nov 9, 2013 11:31:04 GMT -5
I'll be honest I have no idea who this Ohno fella is.
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Abdullah on Nov 9, 2013 11:41:57 GMT -5
I won't lie, I never really got the hype or the fuss. I've never seen his work as Chris Hero, but as Ohno I always thought he was just average. Great match and feud with Regal notwithstanding, I was waiting on Ohno to be great based on the comments here and..just didn't happen. Didn't really click in NXT, is awful as a face, and I have no idea how he'd cope on Smackdown and Raw except being the next Yoshi Tatsu. Sucks for his fans, but I imagine his better work lies in the indies. Same. I've seen some of his indy work, and it's great, but the Regal feud aside I just never saw anything approaching that in NXT. It sucks for him, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Both he and WWE are better off this way, I think - he can go back to being a (deserved) Indy God, and WWE can avoid the inevitable "you're not using him properly" IWC backlash they would have gotten had they called him up and not pushed him hard (which I couldn't see them doing). I have to agree with this as well. I keep bringing this up in Ohno-related threads that, when the rebooted NXT first began, the guy was getting weekly TV time. Nobody brings up the impressively long matches with Steamboat and Trent because, I guess, they aren't worth referring to? A good show with Regal is nice but that's all he really had as far as a legacy in WWE. Hopefully the next guy to be looked at in terms of the ratio of performances to TV time is Graves. More so than Ohno, the dude has nothing to show for his push at this point.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 9, 2013 11:42:46 GMT -5
I'll be honest I have no idea who this Ohno fella is. How much does dis guy weigh?
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Post by Ape Boy on Nov 9, 2013 11:47:38 GMT -5
Remember, if you ever fail at something...you just didn't want it bad enough. If your bosses want you to get in much better shape, and it's the biggest barrier between you and major success, and yet you don't get into much better shape, I think it's safe to say you just didn't want it bad enough. Apparently, Hero hates the gym and healthy eating more than he'd love being a major WWE player. I find that silly, but to each their own.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Nov 9, 2013 11:51:18 GMT -5
Making condescending comments about the guy's fans being upset (not his release mind you; but finding pleasure in others dismay over it) is the very definition of douche. Even if I didn't care for someone getting released, I wouldn't mock the guy's fans. That's just being an asshole. Seriously, what enjoyment do people get out of that? "f*** THE INDIES! HE HEADLINED BINGO HALLS BUT COULDN'T"T CUT IN THE WWE UNIVERSE!!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!" Does that make you feel good? Spoiler alert: it just makes you look like a petty dick. If you don't like the guy but just say that and move the f*** on. Not defending the type of post you're referring to, but I suspect those people get the same enjoyment that others gets from: WWE SUX. THE ONLY REASON HE DIDN'T MAKE IT BECAUSE THE INCOMPETENT FOOLS WHO RUNS THE BIGGEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL 'SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT' COMPANY IN THE WORLD HAVE NO CLUE WHAT TO DO WITH REAL TALENT. RABBLE! RABBLE! I don't subscribe to either point of view, but I see how one begats the other.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 9, 2013 11:53:07 GMT -5
Seriously, what enjoyment do people get out of that? "f*** THE INDIES! HE HEADLINED BINGO HALLS BUT COULDN'T"T CUT IN THE WWE UNIVERSE!!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!" Does that make you feel good? Spoiler alert: it just makes you look like a petty dick. If you don't like the guy but just say that and move the f*** on. Not defending the type of post you're referring to, but I suspect those people get the same enjoyment that others gets from: WWE SUX. THE ONLY REASON HE DIDN'T MAKE IT BECAUSE THE INCOMPETENT FOOLS WHO RUNS THE BIGGEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL 'SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT' COMPANY IN THE WORLD HAVE NO CLUE WHAT TO DO WITH REAL TALENT. RABBLE! RABBLE! I don't subscribe to either point of view, but I see how one begats the other. Oh, I agree that one extreme leads to another. That shit needs to stop on both sides of the fence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 11:56:26 GMT -5
I think Ohno is a guy that would've translated better on the main roster than he did on NXT. NXT fans are all about the wacky gimmicks, the whole atmosphere is different, less serious, more post-kayfabe "wrestling is ridiculous!" mentality. Knockout artist in regular trunks is pretty serious, no matter what kind of glasses he wears during his promos. On the other hand, guys like Tyler Breeze will probably not do as well on the main roster, despite getting treated like the freakin Rock by the NXT Zone.
NXT is a really fun show, I just don't think it was the right place for Ohno to stand out like he can.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 9, 2013 12:00:35 GMT -5
I think Ohno is a guy that would've translated better on the main roster than he did on NXT. NXT fans are all about the wacky gimmicks, the whole atmosphere is different, less serious, more post-kayfabe "wrestling is ridiculous!" mentality. Knockout artist in regular trunks is pretty serious, no matter what kind of glasses he wears during his promos. On the other hand, guys like Tyler Breeze will probably not do as well on the main roster, despite getting treated like the freakin Rock by the NXT Zone. NXT is a really fun show, I just don't think it was the right place for Ohno to stand out like he can. Oddly enough, the reason why Ohno adopted the whole "Young Knockout Kid" gimmick was so ROH would keep booking him. His exposure in ROH probably played a big role in him getting signed and when he finally make it to developmental, the gimmick that he worked so hard to perfect over the last couple of years worked against him.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Nov 9, 2013 12:01:41 GMT -5
I'll be honest I have no idea who this Ohno fella is.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 9, 2013 12:06:33 GMT -5
I think Ohno is a guy that would've translated better on the main roster than he did on NXT. NXT fans are all about the wacky gimmicks, the whole atmosphere is different, less serious, more post-kayfabe "wrestling is ridiculous!" mentality. Knockout artist in regular trunks is pretty serious, no matter what kind of glasses he wears during his promos. On the other hand, guys like Tyler Breeze will probably not do as well on the main roster, despite getting treated like the freakin Rock by the NXT Zone. NXT is a really fun show, I just don't think it was the right place for Ohno to stand out like he can. I saw Tyler Breeze in a dark match at a Smackdown taping. He was WAY over with the crowd, got a lot of heat. Don't know that it means anything, but he made a very positive impresssion on me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 12:09:21 GMT -5
I think Ohno is a guy that would've translated better on the main roster than he did on NXT. NXT fans are all about the wacky gimmicks, the whole atmosphere is different, less serious, more post-kayfabe "wrestling is ridiculous!" mentality. Knockout artist in regular trunks is pretty serious, no matter what kind of glasses he wears during his promos. On the other hand, guys like Tyler Breeze will probably not do as well on the main roster, despite getting treated like the freakin Rock by the NXT Zone. NXT is a really fun show, I just don't think it was the right place for Ohno to stand out like he can. Oddly enough, the reason why Ohno adopted the whole "Young Knockout Kid" gimmick was so ROH would keep booking him. His exposure in ROH probably played a big role in him getting signed and when he finally make it to developmental, the gimmick that he worked so hard to perfect over the last couple of years worked against him. The only time I saw him wrestle in person was in 2008 for ROH, and that was before the Young Knockout Kid gimmick, so he was still wearing his full-body blue Hero outfit. I had never heard of or seen him before and immedaitely thought "who is this loser", but he blew me away. I get why he changed his look and his gimmick, so he could avoid first impressions like the one I had. You know it's dawning on me, this is really all my fault.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 12:12:40 GMT -5
Nah, it's my fault. I was the one that started that Move-ember thread and you all doubted me. I hate being right in this case.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Nov 9, 2013 12:13:26 GMT -5
Remember, if you ever fail at something...you just didn't want it bad enough. If your bosses want you to get in much better shape, and it's the biggest barrier between you and major success, and yet you don't get into much better shape, I think it's safe to say you just didn't want it bad enough. Apparently, Hero hates the gym and healthy eating more than he'd love being a major WWE player. I find that silly, but to each their own. Watch the last NXT. I'm begging people to know what they're talking about. He did hit the gym and got in shape. If that man from the 11/7 NXT is out of shape there has little hope for the rest of us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 12:14:02 GMT -5
I think Ohno is a guy that would've translated better on the main roster than he did on NXT. NXT fans are all about the wacky gimmicks, the whole atmosphere is different, less serious, more post-kayfabe "wrestling is ridiculous!" mentality. Knockout artist in regular trunks is pretty serious, no matter what kind of glasses he wears during his promos. On the other hand, guys like Tyler Breeze will probably not do as well on the main roster, despite getting treated like the freakin Rock by the NXT Zone. NXT is a really fun show, I just don't think it was the right place for Ohno to stand out like he can. I saw Tyler Breeze in a dark match at a Smackdown taping. He was WAY over with the crowd, got a lot of heat. Don't know that it means anything, but he made a very positive impresssion on me. Wow I didn't know he was on the road already. Good sign for him. I'm not really into the whole "self-obssessed pretty-boy" thing that feels like it's been done a million times, but it may just work out for him.
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on Nov 9, 2013 12:17:56 GMT -5
I'm a huge fan of the guy so I'm pretty upset that he's gone. I'd like to see TNA give him a shot. I think he could do pretty well for himself there or maybe he could go to Japan, as some previously metioned, and join the bullet club.
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Post by Viking Snad on Nov 9, 2013 12:20:43 GMT -5
Prince Devitt is a prophet?!
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amaron
Samurai Cop
I yam what I yam.
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Post by amaron on Nov 9, 2013 12:29:29 GMT -5
If your bosses want you to get in much better shape, and it's the biggest barrier between you and major success, and yet you don't get into much better shape, I think it's safe to say you just didn't want it bad enough. Apparently, Hero hates the gym and healthy eating more than he'd love being a major WWE player. I find that silly, but to each their own. Watch the last NXT. I'm begging people to know what they're talking about. He did hit the gym and got in shape. If that man from the 11/7 NXT is out of shape there has little hope for the rest of us. Once you get into the WWE doghouse, especially the VKM/HHH doghouse, it seems very hard to get out of.
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