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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Nov 9, 2013 2:59:19 GMT -5
how long until someone starts bitching about all the PWG talk?
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mrbananagrabber
King Koopa
Paul Heyman's unofficial joke writer
Posts: 11,884
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Post by mrbananagrabber on Nov 9, 2013 3:00:54 GMT -5
I won't lie, I never really got the hype or the fuss. I've never seen his work as Chris Hero, but as Ohno I always thought he was just average. Great match and feud with Regal notwithstanding, I was waiting on Ohno to be great based on the comments here and..just didn't happen.
Didn't really click in NXT, is awful as a face, and I have no idea how he'd cope on Smackdown and Raw except being the next Yoshi Tatsu.
Sucks for his fans, but I imagine his better work lies in the indies.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 9, 2013 3:20:05 GMT -5
I won't lie, I never really got the hype or the fuss. I've never seen his work as Chris Hero, but as Ohno I always thought he was just average. Great match and feud with Regal notwithstanding, I was waiting on Ohno to be great based on the comments here and..just didn't happen. Didn't really click in NXT, is awful as a face, and I have no idea how he'd cope on Smackdown and Raw except being the next Yoshi Tatsu. Sucks for his fans, but I imagine his better work lies in the indies. Same. I've seen some of his indy work, and it's great, but the Regal feud aside I just never saw anything approaching that in NXT. It sucks for him, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Both he and WWE are better off this way, I think - he can go back to being a (deserved) Indy God, and WWE can avoid the inevitable "you're not using him properly" IWC backlash they would have gotten had they called him up and not pushed him hard (which I couldn't see them doing).
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 9, 2013 3:37:45 GMT -5
This. There are people here who are not fans of HerOhno's work, and that's cool. But there is a subsect of people on this board that seem to be hate anybody that was a star on the indies just because of the fact that they were a star on the indies, and revel in the fact that sometimes these guys get released or get pushed down the card. It is a strange phenomenon. As far as I can tell it's because these guys are seen as over-rated by the IWC. I get that, but at the same time, a lot of these guys with fanbases have been working all over the world in different contexts and styles for a long time, and as a result they're really good at what they do, and why wouldn't they be? They earned that fanbase, and that skill-set, through their unique experience and journey, and people see that, respect it, and respond to it. It's not liking them simply because they're from the indies, it's liking what being on the indy circuit has made them, if that makes sense. I think some fail to see that so they just see it as "everyone loves this guy/girl because he/she it's the hip underground thing to do, and that's lame." An indepdendent wrestler with a following signing with WWE is a similar dynamic to a band with a small but loyal grassroots following parlaying that into a major label deal. The difference is, I've never encountered anti-indy (not the indie "genre", but DIY criss-cross the country playing for food and gas money type bands) music people that insist those bands are over-rated and make fun of their fans and say they'll never sell records. Maybe these people exist, I'd like to think they do because it would've been pretty funny to hear people bitch about how Kurt Cobain will never be a draw and that he doesn't have charisma or the look. On the other hand, the backlash against them from those "I was there from the beginning! They suck now!" fans is much more common than it is for wrestlers. That being said, it used to bother me, but I'm over it now. It only bothers me if I'm in a bad mood, and that's not as often these days. That sentiment hasn't been very prevalent in this thread, imo. I see both sides to some degree. First of all, I saw Chris Hero live in ROH and was very happy he signed. Same as with Ambrose and Harper, who I had seen in person and thought of highly. On the other hand, I'm not an Indies Uber Allus type who thinks that every time an indy star doesn't make it in WWE means WWE screwed up. To use your band analogy, there's a difference between rocking out a bar or small music hall and doing the same thing in a basketball-sized arena and still another thing to do it and get over in front of a stadium audience. Some bands are great at what they do but don't translate as well on the "big stage." And it doesn't mean the promoter or record company screwed up if they couldn't sell a million records. I think a lot of what you are talking about is backlash against the "WWE doesn't know what they're doing, if they can't see that this guy is 1,000 times better than John Cena (or whoever) it just proves their incompetence." Maybe Kaz or Colt Cabana are very good at what they do but not have what WWE wants or what WWE thinks will sell. And they just might have a good understanding of that. I do think "phenomenon" of people who are really into the indies criticizing someone like Damien Sandow for spending so long in developmental before getting over on the main roster is just as "strange" -- just like a guy who toils 10 years in the indies to get better and what he does and gets a shot, a guy like Sandow has spent a long time working hard in the "minor leagues" for his big chance, and when the Sandow character was taking off I remember numerous posts pointing out the fact that he was a "Developmental Lifer" suggesting that it was wrong to bring him up when they should have instead elevated ______ (insert former indy star here). There is also the "strange phenomenon" of indy fans who maintain that WWE tries to keep indy heroes down after they sign them -- and do so while CM Punk and Bryan are two of the biggest stars on the roster, with Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins getting major, major pushes from the minute they got called up. Just because every indy star doesn't make it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the fact that they came from the indies -- as these cases prove. I think what you're talking about is just the other side of the coin of the "indy star worship" from that subsect.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Nov 9, 2013 3:55:58 GMT -5
It's a shame because he's really damn talented, but I totally get why they'd do it. He looked absolutely horrible these past few months.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Nov 9, 2013 3:59:21 GMT -5
On the other hand, I'm not an Indies Uber Allus type who thinks that every time an indy star doesn't make it in WWE means WWE screwed up. To use your band analogy, there's a difference between rocking out a bar or small music hall and doing the same thing in a basketball-sized arena and still another thing to do it and get over in front of a stadium audience. Some bands are great at what they do but don't translate as well on the "big stage." And it doesn't mean the promoter or record company screwed up if they couldn't sell a million records. I think a lot of what you are talking about is backlash against the "WWE doesn't know what they're doing, if they can't see that this guy is 1,000 times better than John Cena (or whoever) it just proves their incompetence." Maybe Kaz or Colt Cabana are very good at what they do but not have what WWE wants or what WWE thinks will sell. And they just might have a good understanding of that. To add to the problem, another issue with the indy stars not making it is that, in most cases (not every one, but many of them), the indy wrestler's talent lowers the potential reasons why they were fired- and the reason for their release looks more like it was a crappy reason. People know (or "Know") that the wrestler's talent isn't the issue- so they look for reasons and see if it wasn't a good enough reason to satisfy them. An example being this one: Hero's talent isn't a question- and it's widely accepted the reason he got released was because of his physique (or for the band analogy- saying in 1991 "Nevermind" might be a great album- but Cobain's look isn't great. If he could put some makeup on and blowdry his hair, then wear spandex and fishnets so we can make it look like a hair metal album, THEN we're talking!")- which is a good reason, but not seemingly good enough. When thrown in that there is a bit of sameness around too many of the wrestlers' looks, then the release makes it more quesitonable. Same with people like Kaz (fired over refusing to cut his hair)...and yes, some of the huge indy fans will have problems of firings like Cabana (who had been squashed by Umaga in a poor, botched match that needed to be retaped the SD taping before his release]- or even a Kendrick [who had been noted for a drug problem before his release]- all of which lead to question marks since, if the talent is there, this reason MUST have been stupid, right?
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Post by The Man That Sanity Forgot on Nov 9, 2013 4:03:49 GMT -5
Well there it is, all official and whatnot...
Personally, I think it's a collective screw-up rather than WWE being at fault or Chris being at fault. WWE either don't know what to do with certain people, or can't be arsed/refuse to for whatever reason, whilst Chris didn't exactly help himself a lot of the time. He's a fantastic talent but the WWE expect a certain level outside of the ring. It's all well and good being one of the best wrestlers in the company, but unless your gimmick involves being a 'heavy guy' or a giant, you've gotta stay in good shape. Granted, Chris did get around to it, but it appeared to be too late. It all sucks really.
Now, like I said earlier in the thread, I can imagine a few people are a little pissed off with this. I can see Bryan and Cesaro being disheartened by it and a little pissed off, but it's Regal and Punk I imagine are seething about this. Regal seemed to be Chris' biggest supporter in the company, what with agreeing to work with him and all, and Punk is not going to take it lightly. I can imagine Punk giving the higher-ups some shit about this for some time. He'll not agree with the releasing at all, I reckon, and you know how he can get.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 4:07:40 GMT -5
I like him a lot, but never felt he clicked in WWE. The Regal thing was good but well...I mean, it's Regal man.
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Post by Ape Boy on Nov 9, 2013 4:08:00 GMT -5
Hero didn't want it bad enough. If he did, he wouldn't have a couch potato physique. Throw in his underwhelming charisma and mic skills, and I applaud WWE on trimming the fat (no pun intended). I don't believe Hero is, or ever was, anywhere near one of the top 50 wrestlers in the U.S., and he never deserved a spot in WWE. It was always clear to me that Cesaro was the star of the team. Sure enough, Cesaro's a significant player in WWE while Hero's on his way back to working the high school gyms in towns with five-digit populations. TNA might give him a look due his name value, but I hope they don't.
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
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Post by EyeofTyr on Nov 9, 2013 4:14:09 GMT -5
Well there it is, all official and whatnot... Personally, I think it's a collective screw-up rather than WWE being at fault or Chris being at fault. WWE either don't know what to do with certain people, or can't be arsed/refuse to for whatever reason, whilst Chris didn't exactly help himself a lot of the time. He's a fantastic talent but the WWE expect a certain level outside of the ring. It's all well and good being one of the best wrestlers in the company, but unless your gimmick involves being a 'heavy guy' or a giant, you've gotta stay in good shape. Granted, Chris did get around to it, but it appeared to be too late. It all sucks really. Now, like I said earlier in the thread, I can imagine a few people are a little pissed off with this. I can see Bryan and Cesaro being disheartened by it and a little pissed off, but it's Regal and Punk I imagine are seething about this. Regal seemed to be Chris' biggest supporter in the company, what with agreeing to work with him and all, and Punk is not going to take it lightly. I can imagine Punk giving the higher-ups some shit about this for some time. He'll not agree with the releasing at all, I reckon, and you know how he can get. Really? You think Regal and Punk, more specifically Punk, are going to be more mad about this than Chris' close friend and the man he essentially trained, made and wrestled with (and against) too many times to count in Antonio? I think you're underestimating how much the KoW mean to each other if you think that.
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cherry coloured funk
ALF
discontinue the trout
I know that when I wear Ban-Lon, there does appear to be some jiggling...
Posts: 1,211
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Post by cherry coloured funk on Nov 9, 2013 4:24:00 GMT -5
He had been rumoured to have been on the WWE's radar for a long time, so his fluctuating physique should have been no secret to the powers that be. This feels like the sort of thing where we don't yet know the real story in that he could have requested his release, or it could have been mutual.
Either way, I see him making his way back somehow in about 18 months. Or going to TNA for a couple of weeks and then not showing up again for months until being quietly released, despite being on their roster the whole time.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Nov 9, 2013 4:25:08 GMT -5
Hero didn't want it bad enough. If he did, he wouldn't have a couch potato physique. Throw in his underwhelming charisma and mic skills, and I applaud WWE on trimming the fat (no pun intended). I don't believe Hero is, or ever was, anywhere near one of the top 50 wrestlers in the U.S., and he never deserved a spot in WWE. It was always clear to me that Cesaro was the star of the team. Sure enough, Cesaro's a significant player in WWE while Hero's on his way back to working the high school gyms in towns with five-digit populations. TNA might give him a look due his name value, but I hope they don't. i didn't know the Hammerstein doubled as a high school gym. must be some stuck up private school or something. typical NYC
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Nov 9, 2013 4:27:16 GMT -5
Hero didn't want it bad enough. If he did, he wouldn't have a couch potato physique. Throw in his underwhelming charisma and mic skills, and I applaud WWE on trimming the fat (no pun intended). I don't believe Hero is, or ever was, anywhere near one of the top 50 wrestlers in the U.S., and he never deserved a spot in WWE. It was always clear to me that Cesaro was the star of the team. Sure enough, Cesaro's a significant player in WWE while Hero's on his way back to working the high school gyms in towns with five-digit populations. TNA might give him a look due his name value, but I hope they don't. i didn't know the Hammerstein doubled as a high school gym. must be some stuck up private school or something. typical NYC I wish my high school gym looked like the Hammerstein.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 4:31:59 GMT -5
It is a strange phenomenon. As far as I can tell it's because these guys are seen as over-rated by the IWC. I get that, but at the same time, a lot of these guys with fanbases have been working all over the world in different contexts and styles for a long time, and as a result they're really good at what they do, and why wouldn't they be? They earned that fanbase, and that skill-set, through their unique experience and journey, and people see that, respect it, and respond to it. It's not liking them simply because they're from the indies, it's liking what being on the indy circuit has made them, if that makes sense. I think some fail to see that so they just see it as "everyone loves this guy/girl because he/she it's the hip underground thing to do, and that's lame." An indepdendent wrestler with a following signing with WWE is a similar dynamic to a band with a small but loyal grassroots following parlaying that into a major label deal. The difference is, I've never encountered anti-indy (not the indie "genre", but DIY criss-cross the country playing for food and gas money type bands) music people that insist those bands are over-rated and make fun of their fans and say they'll never sell records. Maybe these people exist, I'd like to think they do because it would've been pretty funny to hear people bitch about how Kurt Cobain will never be a draw and that he doesn't have charisma or the look. On the other hand, the backlash against them from those "I was there from the beginning! They suck now!" fans is much more common than it is for wrestlers. That being said, it used to bother me, but I'm over it now. It only bothers me if I'm in a bad mood, and that's not as often these days. That sentiment hasn't been very prevalent in this thread, imo. I see both sides to some degree. First of all, I saw Chris Hero live in ROH and was very happy he signed. Same as with Ambrose and Harper, who I had seen in person and thought of highly. On the other hand, I'm not an Indies Uber Allus type who thinks that every time an indy star doesn't make it in WWE means WWE screwed up. To use your band analogy, there's a difference between rocking out a bar or small music hall and doing the same thing in a basketball-sized arena and still another thing to do it and get over in front of a stadium audience. Some bands are great at what they do but don't translate as well on the "big stage." And it doesn't mean the promoter or record company screwed up if they couldn't sell a million records. I think a lot of what you are talking about is backlash against the "WWE doesn't know what they're doing, if they can't see that this guy is 1,000 times better than John Cena (or whoever) it just proves their incompetence." Maybe Kaz or Colt Cabana are very good at what they do but not have what WWE wants or what WWE thinks will sell. And they just might have a good understanding of that. I do think "phenomenon" of people who are really into the indies criticizing someone like Damien Sandow for spending so long in developmental before getting over on the main roster is just as "strange" -- just like a guy who toils 10 years in the indies to get better and what he does and gets a shot, a guy like Sandow has spent a long time working hard in the "minor leagues" for his big chance, and when the Sandow character was taking off I remember numerous posts pointing out the fact that he was a "Developmental Lifer" suggesting that it was wrong to bring him up when they should have instead elevated ______ (insert former indy star here). There is also the "strange phenomenon" of indy fans who maintain that WWE tries to keep indy heroes down after they sign them -- and do so while CM Punk and Bryan are two of the biggest stars on the roster, with Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins getting major, major pushes from the minute they got called up. Just because every indy star doesn't make it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the fact that they came from the indies -- as these cases prove. I think what you're talking about is just the other side of the coin of the "indy star worship" from that subsect. Good points. Like you, I am not Mr. Indy Guy. I dont' catch many indy shows, I would like to but money/time/etc. Usually I hear about people on here and check them out. I happen to like a lot of the indy guys that come down the pike, for whatever reason. I guess it's just what I look for in wrestlers, they've usually got it. I like skilled athletes that can adapt to different situations and have their own style. Wrestlers with experience outside of WWE seem to have a strong sense of who they are and what they want to accomplish in the ring and as characters, and it makes sense because they had to learn how to do that in order to sell themselves. Some of the WWE-bred guys seemed to be more manufactured and generic, though that has changed recently. I really like Bray Wyatt, Dolph Ziggler, Big E Langston, Cody Rhodes, all these guys are WWE-lifers. As far as the Sandow thing, I don't remember many of those posts saying "why would you push this guy it took him forever to get out of developmental". Not saying it didn't happen, it just wasn't a prevailing opinion that I was aware of. Once he did get to the main stage, most people agree that he's done a fantastic job and deserves his push, probably an even stronger one. He excels at everything he does, to me he's got main event written all over him. I agree that being in devleopmental isn't as respected as being in the indies. That likely does come down to somewhat of a glorification to be on the indy circuit and wrestle all around the world and learn different styles and claw your way up. It's romantic and inspiring, it fires people up. It's a good story, it's why people are bummed about Ohno getting cut after the journey he's been on, his talent notwithstanding. I see your point though, being in developmental all that time is hard work too, probably a hell of a lot more frustrating, and shouldn't be disparaged or minimized. What it comes down to, I think, is both sides needing to take things more on a case-by-case basis. Not every indy guy sucks, not all of them are awesome. Not all of them are over-pushed, not all of them are held-down. Same with non-indy guys, second gen wrestlers, old wrestlers, young wrestlers, whatever. You and I have debated over Daniel Bryan's push as of late, I'm not coming at that from "WWE's hatin' on mah indy guys!" point-of-view, I'm just calling that as I see it, and so are you. That's healthy debate, and I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem when I'm told why I feel the way I do in a condescending matter, or when it happens to others. Even if it's not necessarily directed at me, it makes the board a lot less fun to read. This is the only forum or any social media type thing I use, and it's always been pretty cool around here, but lately there's been a more pronounced "smark vs. not-a-smark" than usual, imo. The TNA section got pretty bad for a while because it every negative comment about TNA would turn into a "you're just a TNA hater" argument, and I don't want that to happen here. We can all do better and be more respectful. I know I can be a dick, so I'm trying to be better about that, and I appreciate others that do too.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Nov 9, 2013 4:48:10 GMT -5
I was never a huge Hero fan so I'm not sure why I feel kind of dejected about this. Maybe it's because he seemed so close to making the main roster in the beginning of the year? I don't know where it started to fall apart. Or maybe it's because he's the first Indy superstar to fail in the post-Punk era?
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jakes
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 269
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Post by jakes on Nov 9, 2013 4:50:14 GMT -5
This has big ramifications when it comes to any future Indy names being signed by WWE. I'm willing to bet that whatever the issues were with Hero plays into why HHH doesn't want to sign anymore Indy talents and why he thinks they have bad habits. This has to suck for any Indy wrestler who's goal is to make it to WWE.
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playa
AC Slater
Posts: 147
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Post by playa on Nov 9, 2013 4:56:14 GMT -5
I guess Ohno just wasn't as committed. Sure, he's more talented than most at NXT, but if you give off the impression that you aren't working hard, are not as interested, don't take advice well, then obviously you're gonna get released.
I loved Hero and the KOW on the indies, but look at all his indy colleagues during the time he's been at developmental. Ambrose, Rollins, Cesaro, Zayn all have outshined him.
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Post by JTG Fan on Nov 9, 2013 5:02:26 GMT -5
Hero didn't want it bad enough. If he did, he wouldn't have a couch potato physique. Throw in his underwhelming charisma and mic skills, and I applaud WWE on trimming the fat (no pun intended). I don't believe Hero is, or ever was, anywhere near one of the top 50 wrestlers in the U.S., and he never deserved a spot in WWE. It was always clear to me that Cesaro was the star of the team. Sure enough, Cesaro's a significant player in WWE while Hero's on his way back to working the high school gyms in towns with five-digit populations. TNA might give him a look due his name value, but I hope they don't. classy post
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
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Post by EyeofTyr on Nov 9, 2013 5:05:23 GMT -5
Hero didn't want it bad enough. If he did, he wouldn't have a couch potato physique. Throw in his underwhelming charisma and mic skills, and I applaud WWE on trimming the fat (no pun intended). I don't believe Hero is, or ever was, anywhere near one of the top 50 wrestlers in the U.S., and he never deserved a spot in WWE. It was always clear to me that Cesaro was the star of the team. Sure enough, Cesaro's a significant player in WWE while Hero's on his way back to working the high school gyms in towns with five-digit populations. TNA might give him a look due his name value, but I hope they don't. classy post Remember, if you ever fail at something...you just didn't want it bad enough. If you got a crappy hand in the genetics game, remember, you just didn't want it bad enough.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Nov 9, 2013 5:19:02 GMT -5
Ambrose, Rollins, Cesaro, Zayn all have outshined him. It's hard to argue with this. The roster is bloated with good workers.
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