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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 21, 2013 20:12:48 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling, in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand, without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone).
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Post by xCompackx on Nov 21, 2013 20:45:51 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone). Creative may tell them what to say, but there's a lot more to a promo than just what's being said. The tone being used to say the words, the facial/body expressions being given while they're saying it, and how he reacts to the crowd's response is all on the wrestler. Awful analogy, but it's like baking a cake. You can have the recipe, but if the ingredients aren't there, it's not working. |
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Post by angryfan on Nov 21, 2013 20:50:58 GMT -5
I will agree that it's more than just the words said in a promo, but with WWE and the way things are micromanaged, I find the "blame the talent" a bit more difficult.
Promos for all but the upper echelon of talent are word for word scripted. The character, again excluding the upper echelon, is "designed" by the creative team.
When you combine this with the fact that people are given two or three matches, wherein the announce team will most often spend the match talking about something other than the match in front of them, and the fact that ANY new talent not having a rocket up their ass gets over astounds me.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 21, 2013 20:53:23 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone). Creative may tell them what to say, but there's a lot more to a promo than just what's being said. The tone being used to say the words, the facial/body expressions being given while they're saying it, and how he reacts to the crowd's response is all on the wrestler. Awful analogy, but it's like baking a cake. You can have the recipe, but if the ingredients aren't there, it's not working. Fair enough but Del Rio's delivery is as good as it can be considering what's given to him. I don't know what I personally would tell him to do differently to get his aggressive destiny Mexico guy over. |
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Post by celticjobber on Nov 21, 2013 21:08:05 GMT -5
Axel has no charisma whatsoever, it's not his fault. It's not WWE's fault. That's just how it seems to be.
ADR really isn't all that bad, and if anything is highly under-rated by many in the IWC.
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Post by Kayfabe FAN don't want none on Nov 21, 2013 21:11:17 GMT -5
Both guys you mentioned have less charisma than a wall. It's their fault.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 21, 2013 21:24:55 GMT -5
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Nov 21, 2013 21:40:30 GMT -5
Cody Rhodes is a good example -- he was the 'third guy' in legacy, the guy who took all the bumps and got the least mic time, usually saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, what he said.' Million Dollar Baby Dibiase was the one everyone thought would be the star between him and Rhodes ... but Cody worked hard on his mic skills and came across better and better and started to get more and more of the promo time and then more and more of the offense in the ring. When he was saddled with the "guy who talks about hygene and hair care products" crap, he embraced it and made it work to some degree, so much so that it evolved into the Dashing character and then the Horribly Disfigured Dashing character. I like Del Rio just fine. I think his in-ring stuff is always great. I liked him better when he winked at the opponent and had this "I am above you and we both know it" air about himself. I think he'll be fine in the long run. Axel, on the other hand, does nothing for me. If his daddy was Joe Smith who worked in a car wash I doubt he'd ever have made the main roster. I haven't seen any point where he has taken anything that he was given and done anything with it to make me care. The Dashing Cody Rhodes character was pretty much just a model type character. As for Curtis Axel, I like him. His look says Anderson, his wrestling style is a little bit Mr Perfect, a little bit Hart, with a few other influences tossed in. It makes an entertaining combination to be Agree on Dashing Cody Rhodes, but Cody made it work better than a lot of people have, or would have if given it at that time. |
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Nov 21, 2013 21:56:33 GMT -5
It's easy to always blame "creative" when this or that guy doesn't get over. It takes all the responsibility out of the hand of the performer. Jericho talks in his first book about how cherished every second of TV time is -- promo, match, whatever. People like Jericho and Kane (and many others) have been given completely lame things and made them work, or at least work better than most would. I like Del Rio just fine. I think his in-ring stuff is always great. I liked him better when he winked at the opponent and had this "I am above you and we both know it" air about himself. I think he'll be fine in the long run. Axel, on the other hand, does nothing for me. If his daddy was Joe Smith who worked in a car wash I doubt he'd ever have made the main roster. I haven't seen any point where he has taken anything that he was given and done anything with it to make me care. One other problem for the talent- it has to be mentioned: Nobody knows anything. Blaming Creative happens because sometimes (and of the example, especially in Del Rio's case), we ARE at fault- but not in a bad way. ADR had a lot of the pros you'd want from a superstar, clearly DOES have "creative" behind him, but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, we fans just aren't buying what he's selling. This isn't that the fans are BAD for not buying it, that we should march lockstep to what WWE tells us- it's that sometimes, the WWE has to take into account "it's just not happening, send him down the card" (and they "did" do that with Axel) and give the star a chance to rebuild in a smaller role (and it does work- witness how Drew McIntyre went from a similar "just not taking" as a top face, got put in a lower role, and now people see how skilled McIntyre is...and it seems to also be taking recently for Jack Swagger.) |
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 21, 2013 22:34:10 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone). Well that's easy to say but there are enough instances that have been reported or talked about in interviews where wrestlers have had input into things that we don't know for sure. Yes, in the end, there is a word-for-word script. But that doesn't mean the talent has no input -- scripts are constantly revised, a guy may bounce an idea off the writers and they may go with it or they may veto it. I don't think anyone short of Rock, HHH, Cena, maybe Punk, have the freedom to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean others have zero input. It could be that WWE cooked up the idea of Tyler Breeze and looked at the NXT roster and said, 'No, I don't think Alexander Rusev can pull of the male model thing, how about this guy.' Or Tyler could have said, "I have a character idea and I think I can make it work." Or maybe they suggested the character to him and he also had his own ideas and it became what it became. Just because the wrestlers "aren't given a free mic" doesn't mean that they show up, get handed a script and told "You'll say this, end of dicussion." |
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Nov 21, 2013 22:39:36 GMT -5
I don't think promos for the top guys are that scripted. I'm sure I've heard that the likes of HHH, Cena, Punk etc all get free reign. But all guys are expected to talk in the ring now which is a very difficult discipline. There's no Mean Gene there guiding your thoughts or a director to yell 'cut' if you lose your train of thought. The reason some promos are heavily scripted is because if they fail, on live television, not only is their character destroyed it could also completely ruin any angle they were building. That's why some guys promos are now scripted because they've got to have that safety net for those who aren't very good talkers.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 21, 2013 22:54:31 GMT -5
I don't think promos for the top guys are that scripted. I'm sure I've heard that the likes of HHH, Cena, Punk etc all get free reign. But all guys are expected to talk in the ring now which is a very difficult discipline. There's no Mean Gene there guiding your thoughts or a director to yell 'cut' if you lose your train of thought. The reason some promos are heavily scripted is because if they fail, on live television, not only is their character destroyed it could also completely ruin any angle they were building. That's why some guys promos are now scripted because they've got to have that safety net for those who aren't very good talkers. Bingo. In some respects, there's less protection for awkward talkers or not-so-charismatic guys now than there was before. Take, say, Kerry Von Erich. World Class was able to prepackage him as a magnetic hometown hero heartthrob, but if you actually listened to him with a microphone, he came off as a total yutz. That's why everything related to the Von Erichs was so tightly controlled. Axel and Del Rio are being asked to push angles a lot more than the announcers back in the day were, so those two are just getting exposed. That's not to say the writers and bookers are totally blameless every time, but they certainly are in those two instances. |
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
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Post by Lancers on Nov 21, 2013 23:09:38 GMT -5
This is going to end up being one of those multi-page threads, isn't it? I brought the coffee. This discussion's gonna pull an all-nighter. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 21, 2013 23:12:19 GMT -5
It was better back in the day. They should use some of the old tried and tested methods of getting angles and characters over. Guided interviews, pre-taped promos (like picture-in-picture or something akin to the Event Centre). This obsession with doing everything live either in the ring or backstage and projected onto the Titantron is a big problem. The announcers certainly don't help. During the Gorilla/Jesse/Heenan/Vince era and the JR/King era, the commentators would take a more active role in setting up big angles and explaining stories. They'd also put characters over. Now they don't. Angles are left to shitty authority figures which are stale and overused, and the commentators either entertain themselves, or say things to amuse Vince, who I'm sure is cracking up backstage at the inane bollocks he's instructed them to say. Also everything seems rushed now. Especially on RAW which is ironic given they have three hours. Nothing has time to settle in. It's all about getting to the next segment, recap or plug.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 21, 2013 23:23:54 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone). Well that's easy to say but there are enough instances that have been reported or talked about in interviews where wrestlers have had input into things that we don't know for sure. Yes, in the end, there is a word-for-word script. But that doesn't mean the talent has no input -- scripts are constantly revised, a guy may bounce an idea off the writers and they may go with it or they may veto it. I don't think anyone short of Rock, HHH, Cena, maybe Punk, have the freedom to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean others have zero input. It could be that WWE cooked up the idea of Tyler Breeze and looked at the NXT roster and said, 'No, I don't think Alexander Rusev can pull of the male model thing, how about this guy.' Or Tyler could have said, "I have a character idea and I think I can make it work." Or maybe they suggested the character to him and he also had his own ideas and it became what it became. Just because the wrestlers "aren't given a free mic" doesn't mean that they show up, get handed a script and told "You'll say this, end of dicussion." I wonder how much input they have now. I know Foley and Jericho got a lot of ideas over by bending Vince's ear but is he even approachable now? I think he was more into listening to other ideas because of the competition in the past. Because there is none, I think they've just been doing whatever Vince wants since WCW folded. Even the commentators are micromanaged. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 23:36:55 GMT -5
What could you possibly do that would make Curtis Axel interesting?
That's just...no
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Post by I've got some bad news... on Nov 22, 2013 0:07:02 GMT -5
I think Del Rio in 2013 gets a bit of a bad rap, if only because the face turn early in the year was working. Granted, he wasn't reinventing the wheel, but he was getting a decent face response from the crowd. However. The fact that the face turn really came out of nowhere didn't help maximize how babyface over he could be. It did look like he was having fun as a babyface. He seemed energetic. The buddy relationship between he and Ricardo certainly helped, because Ricardo is great for getting sympathy. BUT the problem remains: why did he turn face? It was too abrupt. It's not like fans were chomping at the bit for him to turn face. So turning face for no reason other than 'just because' didn't help him out. Putting a tepid face like a newly turned Del Rio against a returning Jack Swagger also didn't help. Swagger was back after a break for a few months which beforehand was remembered for how far his stock had fallen since 2010. Swagger was last entertaining when he had the Swagger Soaring Eagle. Swagger's new Tea Party gimmick didn't fit him. The fact that Dutch Mantell was brought in to be Swagger's mouthpiece just illustrated the fact that Swagger was already damaged goods. Swagger's run-in with the law before Wrestlemania also squandered the limited potential of the Wrestlemania angle. Eddie Guerrero could make a feud with a racist American work but that's because Eddie's face run had the foundation laid down already. Del Rio was never at the point as a face where Guerrero was when he started moving up to the main event. Again, bad booking, circumstances outside the ring, and simply rushing the story just because you can hurt the potential of Del Rio's face turn. Now Del Rio is back as the same generic aggressive heel gunning for the WHC that we've seen for the past couple of years. Yawn. At least the turn back to heel was something done well with Dolph Ziggler switching alignment, but the booking follow-up certainly did neither man any favours.  |
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Post by xCompackx on Nov 22, 2013 1:41:40 GMT -5
It's easy to always blame "creative" when this or that guy doesn't get over. It takes all the responsibility out of the hand of the performer. Jericho talks in his first book about how cherished every second of TV time is -- promo, match, whatever. People like Jericho and Kane (and many others) have been given completely lame things and made them work, or at least work better than most would. I like Del Rio just fine. I think his in-ring stuff is always great. I liked him better when he winked at the opponent and had this "I am above you and we both know it" air about himself. I think he'll be fine in the long run. Axel, on the other hand, does nothing for me. If his daddy was Joe Smith who worked in a car wash I doubt he'd ever have made the main roster. I haven't seen any point where he has taken anything that he was given and done anything with it to make me care. One other problem for the talent- it has to be mentioned: Nobody knows anything. Blaming Creative happens because sometimes (and of the example, especially in Del Rio's case), we ARE at fault- but not in a bad way. ADR had a lot of the pros you'd want from a superstar, clearly DOES have "creative" behind him, but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, we fans just aren't buying what he's selling. This isn't that the fans are BAD for not buying it, that we should march lockstep to what WWE tells us- it's that sometimes, the WWE has to take into account "it's just not happening, send him down the card" (and they "did" do that with Axel) and give the star a chance to rebuild in a smaller role (and it does work- witness how Drew McIntyre went from a similar "just not taking" as a top face, got put in a lower role, and now people see how skilled McIntyre is...and it seems to also be taking recently for Jack Swagger.) I think a lot of the problem with Del Rio's character (especially when he had the cars and all that) is if you really think about it, "rich guy who flaunts his money and claims it's his destiny to be champion" isn't that heelish. He's not Ted Dibiase levels where he's creating his own championship belts and legit acting evil. Del Rio is just a wealthy guy who wants to be champion. He doesn't do anything to make you really want to see the good guy prevail, he's basically just how anyone would act if they had a huge amount of money and the ego that comes with that. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 22, 2013 2:41:58 GMT -5
What could you possibly do that would make Curtis Axel interesting? That's just...no This is what they could have done. Put Ted Dibiase or even Cody Rhodes, and Joe Hennig (with those names) together as a no-nonsense Brain Busters-type tag team. Have Heyman unveil them as his new guys. They attack HHH and spike piledrive him onto a chair and celebrate over his broken body. If WWE sold it right (and HHH was willing to actually put someone over this decade), it would have immediately got them over as a serious threat and a solid new team for a tag division that needed reconstruction. But instead they made Axel look like a dick right from the start, gave him a few fluke wins, and then gave him a pointless IC title and made him the stand-in for Brock Lesnar, which was never going to work. Talent can get over if WWE have the will to do it. For most of the roster, the creative team just don't care. |
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 22, 2013 2:45:09 GMT -5
What could you possibly do that would make Curtis Axel interesting? That's just...no This is what they could have done. Put Ted Dibiase or even Cody Rhodes, and Joe Hennig (with those names) together as a no-nonsense Brain Busters-type tag team. Have Heyman unveil them as his new guys. They attack HHH and spike piledrive him onto a chair and celebrate over his broken body. If WWE sold it right (and HHH was willing to actually put someone over this decade), it would have immediately got them over as a serious threat and a solid new team for a tag division that needed reconstruction. But instead they made Axel look like a dick right from the start, gave him a few fluke wins, and then gave him a pointless IC title and made him the stand-in for Brock Lesnar, which was never going to work. Talent can get over if WWE have the will to do it. For most of the roster, the creative team just don't care. That would not make me interested in Curtis Axel. It would make me feel sorry for Cody. He's already carried Million Dollar Baby once before. And giving Axel his father's name would just make him look, well, less than perfect by comparison. To my eyes he hasn't done anything with the opportunities he has been given to make me care about him one bit. Blame "creative" if you must, but I just don't think he has it. I will be pleasantly surprised if I turn out to be wrong about him. |
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