kevin
El Dandy
Posts: 7,516
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Post by kevin on Nov 22, 2013 5:12:35 GMT -5
One other problem for the talent- it has to be mentioned: Nobody knows anything. Blaming Creative happens because sometimes (and of the example, especially in Del Rio's case), we ARE at fault- but not in a bad way. ADR had a lot of the pros you'd want from a superstar, clearly DOES have "creative" behind him, but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, we fans just aren't buying what he's selling. This isn't that the fans are BAD for not buying it, that we should march lockstep to what WWE tells us- it's that sometimes, the WWE has to take into account "it's just not happening, send him down the card" (and they "did" do that with Axel) and give the star a chance to rebuild in a smaller role (and it does work- witness how Drew McIntyre went from a similar "just not taking" as a top face, got put in a lower role, and now people see how skilled McIntyre is...and it seems to also be taking recently for Jack Swagger.) I think a lot of the problem with Del Rio's character (especially when he had the cars and all that) is if you really think about it, "rich guy who flaunts his money and claims it's his destiny to be champion" isn't that heelish. He's not Ted Dibiase levels where he's creating his own championship belts and legit acting evil. Del Rio is just a wealthy guy who wants to be champion. He doesn't do anything to make you really want to see the good guy prevail, he's basically just how anyone would act if they had a huge amount of money and the ego that comes with that. Could that be why so many people dislike Del Rio? It fasinates me how many people do because he gets good reactions, he is fabulous in the ring and is decent at promos. Yet it seems that many people on here hate him and many simply claim that he is boring or lacks chrisma. Which is little better than saying i hate him because i do. You have given me the first inclination as to a possible reason why. He is a rich heel who claims he is better than everyone and then beats them often with little trouble. Only a select few main eventers have ever been booked as better than Del Rio is his entire run and that may be why so many find him boring. They see him as a heel who says i am better than the face then proceds to beat the face up with little to no sign of ever getting cumupence by anyone not near the Cena, Punk level. Which if true would be completely creatives fault unless he really does threaten to quit if not booked that way.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,172
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Post by Bo Rida on Nov 22, 2013 7:00:38 GMT -5
There's an old saying about not being able to make chicken salad out of chickenshit. And there's very little you could do to make Alberto Del Rio interesting outside of banning him from using the words "gringo" "perro" and "destiny" and then making him cut a promo. Because that would be awkward silence greatness. Yep that right there is the issue, I think there are inherent issues with his gimmick and there have been many mistakes regarding his booking but even if everything was perfect you'd still come back to that problem. I think it's was best seen his recent commentary performances, that's the one area that seems mostly unscripted and with those shackles removed he proceeded to be worse than ever and ruined a perfectly good match. Compare Del Rio awkwardly repeating "gringo" and "perro" to Titus O'Neil's washrag performance or even AJ's put downs of Jerry Lawler, they took that little bit of freedom and made it work providing entertainment and enhancing their characters, Del Rio just made himself look out of his depth. There's only so much the bookers and writers can do for a wrestler like that. I also want to mention his flying nothing where he jumps of the ropes and lands on his feet without even a token attempt at an axe-handle, what the hell is that? He's done it multiple times now so can't even be put down to a one-off mistake.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 22, 2013 9:26:16 GMT -5
Talent cannot rely solely on the bookers to give them interesting storyline. It's up to the wrestler to make that special personal connection with the crowd. That something the bookers can't do for them. bingo. all a booker can do to help a guy is give them a platform and direction. it's up to the talent to make the crowd care. and that's not just true of wrestling, it's true of any television program. Del Rio and Axel are 2 guys that are pretty bad at making people care.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 22, 2013 9:37:26 GMT -5
I don't think promos for the top guys are that scripted. I'm sure I've heard that the likes of HHH, Cena, Punk etc all get free reign. But all guys are expected to talk in the ring now which is a very difficult discipline. There's no Mean Gene there guiding your thoughts or a director to yell 'cut' if you lose your train of thought. The reason some promos are heavily scripted is because if they fail, on live television, not only is their character destroyed it could also completely ruin any angle they were building. That's why some guys promos are now scripted because they've got to have that safety net for those who aren't very good talkers. True. And that's why they always did pretapes back in the day. The idea was to sell rivalries and pay-per-views, and it still is, so it being live today is really irrelevant. It's a strange, dated holdover from the Attitude Era that needs to go. (along with pretty much how they structure the shows altogether). The whole 20 minute promo stuff is no longer needed. It's basically the same shit every week written by the same horrible people with the same hivemind voice. It's not necessary and it's painfully cliche.
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Nikki Heyman
Fry's dog Seymour
EXTREEEEEME Pony Manager
✬ Believe In The Fight ✬
Posts: 24,018
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Nov 22, 2013 9:46:56 GMT -5
Talent cannot rely solely on the bookers to give them interesting storyline. It's up to the wrestler to make that special personal connection with the crowd. That something the bookers can't do for them. bingo. all a booker can do to help a guy is give them a platform and direction. it's up to the talent to make the crowd care. and that's not just true of wrestling, it's true of any television program. Del Rio and Axel are 2 guys that are pretty bad at making people care. I'll partially disagree about Del Rio because his "Destiny" booking should have resulted in a top title a lot sooner. He's a solid wrestler and most of his prior work in Mexico was done under a mask, limiting facial expressions (something Del Rio is extremely underrated for). His gimmick has wandered into Guererro territory at times, throwing the whole "Mexican Aristocrat" thing out the window. Curtis Axel CAN be engaging, but listening to one of his recent promos it sounded like he modeled more after Randy Orton than his own father. Axel's rocky start in NXT, horrible name and "Genesis" promo are going to be tall hurdles for him. But look at a guy like Bray Wyatt. Everyone made fun of the Husky Harris character and tagline "Tank with a Ferarri engine". He found something that really, REALLY works. The talent is a big piece of how something works. Guys like Kane, Chris Jericho and Cody Rhodes can make almost ANYTHING work. Del Rio is trying to make the character work but "Mexican Patriot" is too far from what we expect from someone who should be able to buy his way anywhere on the card. Axel supposedly has mic skills, but we don't have anything other than "son of Curt Henning". As Ted Jr proved, having a famous father can only get you so far.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Nov 22, 2013 10:56:39 GMT -5
I think a lot of the problem with Del Rio's character (especially when he had the cars and all that) is if you really think about it, "rich guy who flaunts his money and claims it's his destiny to be champion" isn't that heelish. He's not Ted Dibiase levels where he's creating his own championship belts and legit acting evil. Del Rio is just a wealthy guy who wants to be champion. He doesn't do anything to make you really want to see the good guy prevail, he's basically just how anyone would act if they had a huge amount of money and the ego that comes with that. Could that be why so many people dislike Del Rio? It fasinates me how many people do because he gets good reactions, he is fabulous in the ring and is decent at promos. Yet it seems that many people on here hate him and many simply claim that he is boring or lacks chrisma. Which is little better than saying i hate him because i do. You have given me the first inclination as to a possible reason why. He is a rich heel who claims he is better than everyone and then beats them often with little trouble. Only a select few main eventers have ever been booked as better than Del Rio is his entire run and that may be why so many find him boring. They see him as a heel who says i am better than the face then proceds to beat the face up with little to no sign of ever getting cumupence by anyone not near the Cena, Punk level. Which if true would be completely creatives fault unless he really does threaten to quit if not booked that way. While I think the fact he's one of the most protected heels in years is a problem, I don't think that's necessarily it. People had the same complaints about him during his Best of 10 PPV series with Sheamus, where he continued to fall short. He just doesn't have anything going for him. He has literally the exact same gimmick as when he debuted, but every aspect of it, from the gold tights to the cars to Ricardo, have been slowly stripped away. Every promo he's cut is the same thing, and it's always about his destiny or his aggression. He just doesn't bring the entertainment necessary to feel like the level he's kept at is anywhere near where he should be. Being good at cutting promos means nothing if you're just saying the same thing every time and the only progress or changes you show are regression to being less of a character.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 11:05:04 GMT -5
When your gimmick is "guy in trunks with a stupid name," and everyone else has that same gimmick, and you're all reading horribly stilted, scripted promos that were obviously all written by the same person, there's not much you can do to make it worth watching.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Nov 22, 2013 11:08:09 GMT -5
bingo. all a booker can do to help a guy is give them a platform and direction. it's up to the talent to make the crowd care. and that's not just true of wrestling, it's true of any television program. Del Rio and Axel are 2 guys that are pretty bad at making people care. I'll partially disagree about Del Rio because his "Destiny" booking should have resulted in a top title a lot sooner. He's a solid wrestler and most of his prior work in Mexico was done under a mask, limiting facial expressions (something Del Rio is extremely underrated for). His gimmick has wandered into Guererro territory at times, throwing the whole "Mexican Aristocrat" thing out the window. The talent is a big piece of how something works. Guys like Kane, Chris Jericho and Cody Rhodes can make almost ANYTHING work. Del Rio is trying to make the character work but "Mexican Patriot" is too far from what we expect from someone who should be able to buy his way anywhere on the card. On the destiny thing I keep saying having him lose at Wrestlemania and then whatever they call backlash.. really damaged him... especially as they then decided to keep using the "destiny!" gimmick afterwards... with pretty much the same promo for over a year. Not to mention systematically taking everything interesting away from him... the wink, the telling us things we already knew, ricardo, the cars, etc. As for the other thing I don't know why they keep didn't stick with the facetious hero of the people gimmick he had for like 2 weeks... I found him entertaining as hell when he was doing that.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 22, 2013 12:00:57 GMT -5
I can't blame the talent, the problem really is with the WWE's backstage culture, everything is so managed now there's no room or incentive for guys to try and make themselves stand out and try to get themselves over in the modern WWE, people who've tried have found themselves punished for it, or found management trying their best to transfer their overness to other people, look at Kawal's treatment for winning NXT, the constant attempts to make Sheamus using Daniel Bryan or the way they've booked Ryder into obscurity for trying his hardest to make something of himself, even spending his own money to film a webshow when creative had nothing for him.... On the other side of the coin, Del Rio and Axel have been given the Orton treatment, they're guys management have decided are going to be a big deal and will keep plugging away at until the audience give up and accept them as such, so why should they try and do anything but the bare minimum and risk upsetting management by adding a personal twist to their characters and promos? Orton never has, and even now he's being pushed ahead of people willing to make the effort and build up a connection with the audience.
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HBL
Unicron
This is what yoga does to you.
Posts: 3,196
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Post by HBL on Nov 22, 2013 12:55:25 GMT -5
With Axel,there is maybe a little,a very little more glimpse of hope. But with Del Rio,definitely not. He has his moments,but in this short amount of time he's been involved with two world titles,beat jobbers weekly,always got involved with big names...Though there is this,it could've been different. If he actually beat Edge at WM 27 maybe he would at least get SOME reaction. Almost everyone expected Del Rio to win that and even if I don't like the guy that really was the logical move there. On that point they f***ed it up and never got things together with him ever again. They put the strap on him way too early and that pretty much sealed his future.
If they were patient with him,who knows. But he's beyond salvation now.
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Post by Bootista on Nov 22, 2013 12:58:24 GMT -5
What's Eduardo El Paso doing in the impact zone?
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 22, 2013 13:57:12 GMT -5
This is what they could have done. Put Ted Dibiase or even Cody Rhodes, and Joe Hennig (with those names) together as a no-nonsense Brain Busters-type tag team. Have Heyman unveil them as his new guys. They attack HHH and spike piledrive him onto a chair and celebrate over his broken body. If WWE sold it right (and HHH was willing to actually put someone over this decade), it would have immediately got them over as a serious threat and a solid new team for a tag division that needed reconstruction. But instead they made Axel look like a dick right from the start, gave him a few fluke wins, and then gave him a pointless IC title and made him the stand-in for Brock Lesnar, which was never going to work. Talent can get over if WWE have the will to do it. For most of the roster, the creative team just don't care. That would not make me interested in Curtis Axel. For some people, nothing would make them interested in him. Some guys just don't appeal to some fans. They are doing that now by giving him a name citing his father and grandfather. As for Cody, that could be his niche. To carry a bigger, stronger partner. Even Ted Dibiase was given no chance by creative. He was placed in Legacy and made to look like an inferior lackey to Orton. At times Rhodes and Dibiase looked more like sex slaves than faction members you could take seriously. It depends what one means by "it". If it's to be a top line charismatic superstar, then no he doesn't have it. But a relatively small percentage of wrestlers have that. For everyone else it's about finding a useful niche. What opportunities has he been given really? The IC title has been so demeaned that holding it doesn't really mean much. He was plugged into Brock Lesnar's role in the company, which would have been a bridge too far for most guys, and his re-debut was sabotaged by the usual suspects.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Nov 22, 2013 14:20:44 GMT -5
We don't really have anything else to blame. You bring up blaming creative but that's difficult as we can't say for sure that they aren't actually trying to write interesting stuff for talent. You always hear of ex-writers claiming they had all these ideas for talent that either didn't get approved or got re-written, you always hear of Vince demanding entire re-writes of scripts the day of RAW. When that's a common occurrence I imagine it's difficult to get any of these ideas out there, you could have the most amazing idea for a given talent but if Vince doesn't like or understand it it doesn't get approved, despite it potentially making someones career. It's not so much creative itself but the creative process, the fact Vince is the be-all end-all decider for ideas is hurting some guys careers. Even then, when this is a company wide problem, you have stop and ask yourself why is this guy connecting and getting over with the audience and this other guy isn't despite neither of them really having a storyline or feud of substance, in the case of Del Rio, not getting over despite more effort being put into them over other talent that are somehow getting over.
In the end, when everything is subject to the same shitty creative process we can only judge a performer based on what they do with the time and potential storyline given to them.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 22, 2013 14:22:46 GMT -5
In this day and age it is creative's fault. It's not like the wrestlers are given a free mic. They're told what to say, by failed tv writers that don't understand wrestling in a rigidly controlled environment. It's just simple phrases repeated ad naseum so it's not hard for any country on earth to understand without any edge because it might a offend a portion of their demographic (which is everyone). Creative may tell them what to say, but there's a lot more to a promo than just what's being said. The tone being used to say the words, the facial/body expressions being given while they're saying it, and how he reacts to the crowd's response is all on the wrestler. Awful analogy, but it's like baking a cake. You can have the recipe, but if the ingredients aren't there, it's not working. Perfect example: John Morrison. That's a guy who I truly believe you could script a perfect promo for and he would still ruin it with his delivery.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Nov 22, 2013 15:32:33 GMT -5
Creative may tell them what to say, but there's a lot more to a promo than just what's being said. The tone being used to say the words, the facial/body expressions being given while they're saying it, and how he reacts to the crowd's response is all on the wrestler. Awful analogy, but it's like baking a cake. You can have the recipe, but if the ingredients aren't there, it's not working. Perfect example: John Morrison. That's a guy who I truly believe you could script a perfect promo for and he would still ruin it with his delivery. What JoMo lacks in promo ability, he makes up for in pure charisma. And his character might be part of the issue. Deadpan, cryptic nonsense guru Morrison is awesome. That Parkour Guy, not so much.
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