Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 18:29:31 GMT -5
The one part that actually irked me was when he was talking about guys like Steamboat, Muraco and Harley leaving and listing Bossman, Rude and Duggan as his replacements. Besides that, it's probably the most in-depth book about the Rock and Wrestling Era.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Nov 25, 2013 18:45:33 GMT -5
I will say this, as flawed as it is, it's leagues better than Shawn's book. It's not fun to read a bio of a guy who purposely leaves stuff out, or forgets it. Everyone in the Kliq has flat out said that Shawn was a druggie, yet he basically avoids the points a lot of the time.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Nov 25, 2013 19:03:23 GMT -5
The Canadian pride thing has always puzzled me, a little. Like, I totally understand that he's proud to be a Canadian, and that he wanted to project himself as a Canadian hero. That's fine w/ me. I can understand not wanting to lose in your hometown. Maybe even your own Province... But, Bret is from Alberta. Not Quebec. Quebec (especially in the late 90s) is the "weird Province that sometimes doesn't even want to be a part of Canada," and they speak "french" not "english." It's like another country within the borders of Canada. Quebec fans are oddly loyal to athletes and pro wrestlers. They gave Hogan a 10 minute standing ovation once. Between that 10 minute standing O in Montreal and his reception in Toronto at WM 18, you can argue that Hogan was more over in Canada than the US. Yeah, I was at Smackdown in Albany when Hogan returned & he got a 20+ minute ovation before he even got to talk. They preserved a good chunk of that on the TV broadcast. Hogan is Hogan. Anywhere (except TNA). The Canadian pride thing has always puzzled me, a little. Like, I totally understand that he's proud to be a Canadian, and that he wanted to project himself as a Canadian hero. That's fine w/ me. I can understand not wanting to lose in your hometown. Maybe even your own Province... But, Bret is from Alberta. Not Quebec. Quebec (especially in the late 90s) is the "weird Province that sometimes doesn't even want to be a part of Canada," and they speak "french" not "english." It's like another country within the borders of Canada. Did you watch RAW back then? He was getting insane pops in Toronto, and Montreal, and I would imagine many other places in Canada, during that Hart Foundation phase of 1997. His whole angle was that America sucks, something I'm sure flowed well across the borders up there amongst the wrestling crowds (crowds who, whether it's Canada or the US or wherever, have historically always been strongly pro-domestic, especially when something foreign comes along and threatens the things/characters you like). I'd gather that his Canadian pride was probably bolstered quite a bit by the Canadian fans of all provinces who blew roofs off when his music hit. I'm not saying Bret wasn't over like rover. My point is, "I can't lose in the French Province on the other side of my home country," is a pretty weak excuse. We're talking Survivor Series (which was already an unimportant PPV), not the Olympics.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 25, 2013 19:26:00 GMT -5
Vince wanted his guy to beat who would soon be their guy. Simple as that. And why shouldn't this be the case? You leave the 'territory' you do the honourable thing. Bret may not have liked Shawn but that's not his call. If he didn't expect to be jobbed out or screwed if he didn't agree to it, knowing the business he was in and knowing the man he worked for - he's a moron.
Once you leave for the competition, regardless as to why, your right to go out 'on a high' ends. All you have 'the right' to do is put over whomever your soon-to-be-former boss wants.
On the wider issue given how Bret has taken potshots at certain people it's kind of ironic how the 40 year old WWF champion refused to job for the guy the boss wanted him to. I guess when you're Hogan 40 is the new 50 whereas for Bret it was fine as by 1997 40 was the new 30
I'll wager "Hogan, aged 40 was leaving WWF but didn't want to drop the belt to Bret in America" - wouldn't garner quite so much sympathy.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 25, 2013 19:45:13 GMT -5
It's hilarious how over the top Bret is with self-aggrandization. I kept waiting for him to put the sunglasses on a blind kid to enable the young fan to see.
Also, every woman ever wanted to nail Bret.
Despite the hilarity of how much he's into himself, and in many cases because of it, it's a fast, fun read.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 25, 2013 19:57:29 GMT -5
It's hilarious how over the top Bret is with self-aggrandization. I kept waiting for him to put the sunglasses on a blind kid to enable the young fan to see. Also, every woman ever wanted to nail Bret. Despite the hilarity of how much he's into himself, and in many cases because of it, it's a fast, fun read. He was more popular than anyone in Europe. .....apparently.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 25, 2013 20:01:27 GMT -5
It's hilarious how over the top Bret is with self-aggrandization. I kept waiting for him to put the sunglasses on a blind kid to enable the young fan to see. Also, every woman ever wanted to nail Bret. Despite the hilarity of how much he's into himself, and in many cases because of it, it's a fast, fun read. He was more popular than anyone in Europe. .....apparently. If there had been a way to poll Atlanteans, he'd have been the most popular hero of all Atlantis as well.
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Post by jason1980s on Nov 25, 2013 20:03:47 GMT -5
I find the Warrior story disheartening. I don't want to say I don't believe it but it's hard to believe.
From what I've read or heard about Warrior, he takes his character very seriously. He spends a lot of time with each fan at autograph signings, he sells a workout package for a pretty low price on his website where he gets a personal video advice, and about a year ago he agreed to meet with a fan at his home. The fan asked him for a recommendation for a job and Warrior took him out in the desert and not sure whatever came of it but it shows me that he does indeed care about the fans.
I've seen pictures of him backstage with fans so it's tough to think that he never met with the ill child.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 25, 2013 23:16:59 GMT -5
I find the Warrior story disheartening. I don't want to say I don't believe it but it's hard to believe. From what I've read or heard about Warrior, he takes his character very seriously. He spends a lot of time with each fan at autograph signings, he sells a workout package for a pretty low price on his website where he gets a personal video advice, and about a year ago he agreed to meet with a fan at his home. The fan asked him for a recommendation for a job and Warrior took him out in the desert and not sure whatever came of it but it shows me that he does indeed care about the fans. I've seen pictures of him backstage with fans so it's tough to think that he never met with the ill child. Yeah, that bothered me big time for two reasons: 1) Warrior definitely came off as a jerk to most other wrestlers, this cannot be disputed, however I've always heard about him being very nice to fans, especially younger fans. 2) Bret flat out says that he doesn't know if Warrior met the boy or not. However, he buries that at the end of the story so that the only thing you'll remember about it after a while is that he didn't.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 17,284
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Post by Renslayer on Nov 26, 2013 3:41:35 GMT -5
Isn't there a story of Bret messing around with Salt-n-Pepa around WrestleMania 11?
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Post by thegame415 on Nov 26, 2013 5:22:38 GMT -5
Isn't there a story of Bret messing around with Salt-n-Pepa around WrestleMania 11? So, whatta man was about Bret?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 26, 2013 5:37:11 GMT -5
I admit to almost bursting out laughing when he said he felt he let Canada down over the Montreal Screwjob. The Canadian pride thing has always puzzled me, a little. Like, I totally understand that he's proud to be a Canadian, and that he wanted to project himself as a Canadian hero. That's fine w/ me. I can understand not wanting to lose in your hometown. Maybe even your own Province... But, Bret is from Alberta. Not Quebec. Quebec (especially in the late 90s) is the "weird Province that sometimes doesn't even want to be a part of Canada," and they speak "french" not "english." It's like another country within the borders of Canada. Bret was a hero in Canada. Everywhere in Canada. And you have to remember, the entire feud was basically Canada and all of Europe vs The U.S., with the Americans not really realizing they were actually the moral heels in the angle. That's what made it so great and unique. I still think to this day that a lot of fans don't get the nuances of the angle, their role, and how Bret's character was actually right about the moral decline of society, and him being rejected in favor of rotten human beings despite not doing anything to merit it. That said, HBK represented the entire crux of the feud; everything Bret was fighting against. Disregarding the fact that HBK antagonized Bret for real backstage, had match results changed (HBK beating Davey Boy in Europe in a match dedicated to Davey's dying sister who sat at ringside for example) and said that he himself would never lose to Bret ever, Bret losing, after that build, and with everything HBK represented culturally at the time, would have been the U.S. equivalent in Canada of Sgt. Slaughter cleanly pinning Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania 7. The trick to understanding the emotion of the time, is to remove Canada from the equation, and put your own country in place of it, in a moral, final battle of ideologies, where one side is proven superior and correct. I don't care who you are, or from where, it was an impossible scenario on all sides. And this is all discounting the fact that Bret had a creative control clause in his contract, was double crossed on a finish that Vince agreed to, was still legally under contract until December 9th so he had had ample time to drop it to anyone including HBK, and actually could not show up with the belt on Nitro legally.
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Post by evilone on Nov 26, 2013 5:43:45 GMT -5
Vince wanted his guy to beat who would soon be their guy. Simple as that. And why shouldn't this be the case? You leave the 'territory' you do the honourable thing. Bret may not have liked Shawn but that's not his call. If he didn't expect to be jobbed out or screwed if he didn't agree to it, knowing the business he was in and knowing the man he worked for - he's a moron. Once you leave for the competition, regardless as to why, your right to go out 'on a high' ends. All you have 'the right' to do is put over whomever your soon-to-be-former boss wants. On the wider issue given how Bret has taken potshots at certain people it's kind of ironic how the 40 year old WWF champion refused to job for the guy the boss wanted him to. I guess when you're Hogan 40 is the new 50 whereas for Bret it was fine as by 1997 40 was the new 30 I'll wager "Hogan, aged 40 was leaving WWF but didn't want to drop the belt to Bret in America" - wouldn't garner quite so much sympathy. Whole honorable thing goes out of the window as soon as Vince calls and says "see that twenty year contract we got.. I've changed my mind." Bret did them a favor by renegotiating the contract, he didn't have to.
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Incognito
ALF
Putting the fun back in funeral
Posts: 1,024
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Post by Incognito on Nov 26, 2013 6:04:39 GMT -5
I admit to almost bursting out laughing when he said he felt he let Canada down over the Montreal Screwjob. I was really annoyed with how much he lied and crapped over Davey Boy for SummerSlam '92. I got the impression he really just wanted to take credit for the match. His really petty snipes at Kevin Nash hurt him in my estimation. Why do you say he lied about SummerSlam '92? As a ring general, he is known to have carried quite a few wrestlers/matches in his day so why is it unbelievable in this instance? In his book, Bret mentions that Davey was breathing hard after only a few minutes; this could be attributed to his drug use (he had fessed up to smoking crack with Jim The Anvil in the last few weeks before the match). Then Davey panted that he could not remember anything. So Bret simply did what had been done many times before in the business; He called out the next moves until the match was over. It happens. For example, I have not heard anyone dispute the fact that Randy Savage carried The Ultimate Warrior at Wrestlemania 7. Also, Bret mentions that when he wrestled the British Bulldogs, it would be Dynamite Kid and him who would put the matches together not Davey and Jim. I'm not trying to start something here I'm just curious as to why you say he lied and crapped over Davey Boy for SummerSlam'92? As for the "tears in their eyes" thing, I remember a moment in the book (where Bret talks about the early 90's) and he says Jimmy Hart had heard a rumour about Bret going to WCW and Jimmy, thinking he was really leaving, went to see him to shake his hand and with tears in his eyes said "I can't believe they're gonna lose a talent like you...I don't understand why they treat you the way they do." Is it unbelievable that Jimmy and Bret were friends in the business at that time? If good movies can bring us to tears what about friendship? I've seen people shed a few tears over leaving a job that they had for years in part because they had awesome co-workers or employees. Also, to me there is a difference between "tears in the eyes", like when someone is briefly overcome by emotion and "bawling their eyes out" or "breaking down hard" or "crying their eyes out". If that did happen well the context would be interesting for sure. We've all seen sports fans get a little misty eyed from time to time when their team wins big matches. The players do as well. Anyway just my two cents
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 26, 2013 6:21:26 GMT -5
Vince wanted his guy to beat who would soon be their guy. Simple as that. And why shouldn't this be the case? You leave the 'territory' you do the honourable thing. Bret may not have liked Shawn but that's not his call. If he didn't expect to be jobbed out or screwed if he didn't agree to it, knowing the business he was in and knowing the man he worked for - he's a moron. Once you leave for the competition, regardless as to why, your right to go out 'on a high' ends. All you have 'the right' to do is put over whomever your soon-to-be-former boss wants. On the wider issue given how Bret has taken potshots at certain people it's kind of ironic how the 40 year old WWF champion refused to job for the guy the boss wanted him to. I guess when you're Hogan 40 is the new 50 whereas for Bret it was fine as by 1997 40 was the new 30 I'll wager "Hogan, aged 40 was leaving WWF but didn't want to drop the belt to Bret in America" - wouldn't garner quite so much sympathy. Whole honorable thing goes out of the window as soon as Vince calls and says "see that twenty year contract we got.. I've changed my mind." Bret did them a favor by renegotiating the contract, he didn't have to. But that's not relevant either. You don't get a big send off to the competition because you do them a favour by getting out of a 20 year contract. It's just how the business works, you leave or retire and you do the job on your way out. It's almost comic that Bret would have believed that Vince, fighting for his life vs WCW, would allow his champion to just walk out on his TV show, announce he's leaving (and everyone would know where to) and for the final scene to be him walking into the sunset with adoring fans and officials throwing confetti at him. What was ALWAYS going to happen is that he'd get jobbed to whomever the promoter wanted him to be job to whether he knew about it or not. Them's the rules. To be in the industry all his life as Bret was and to not know that this would be the case doesn't speak highly of his intellect. Did he honestly think he'd be allowed to lay down the belt on Raw and say "I'm going now"? Really? Was he THAT dumb? I dunno, maybe Lex Luger has every right to be upset that the Raw after he debuted on Nitro wasn't a tribute "Good luck in the future, Lex" tribute show. This is the level of naivety we're talking about here.
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Incognito
ALF
Putting the fun back in funeral
Posts: 1,024
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Post by Incognito on Nov 26, 2013 6:34:50 GMT -5
The Canadian pride thing has always puzzled me, a little. Like, I totally understand that he's proud to be a Canadian, and that he wanted to project himself as a Canadian hero. That's fine w/ me. I can understand not wanting to lose in your hometown. Maybe even your own Province... But, Bret is from Alberta. Not Quebec. Quebec (especially in the late 90s) is the "weird Province that sometimes doesn't even want to be a part of Canada," and they speak "french" not "english." It's like another country within the borders of Canada. Bret was a hero in Canada. Everywhere in Canada. And you have to remember, the entire feud was basically Canada and all of Europe vs The U.S., with the Americans not really realizing they were actually the moral heels in the angle. That's what made it so great and unique. I still think to this day that a lot of fans don't get the nuances of the angle, their role, and how Bret's character was actually right about the moral decline of society, and him being rejected in favor of rotten human beings despite not doing anything to merit it. That said, HBK represented the entire crux of the feud; everything Bret was fighting against. Disregarding the fact that HBK antagonized Bret for real backstage, had match results changed (HBK beating Davey Boy in Europe in a match dedicated to Davey's dying sister who sat at ringside for example) and said that he himself would never lose to Bret ever, Bret losing, after that build, and with everything HBK represented culturally at the time, would have been the U.S. equivalent in Canada of Sgt. Slaughter cleanly pinning Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania 7. The trick to understanding the emotion of the time, is to remove Canada from the equation, and put your own country in place of it, in a moral, final battle of ideologies, where one side is proven superior and correct. I don't care who you are, or from where, it was an impossible scenario on all sides. And this is all discounting the fact that Bret had a creative control clause in his contract, was double crossed on a finish that Vince agreed to, was still legally under contract until December 9th so he had had ample time to drop it to anyone including HBK, and actually could not show up with the belt on Nitro legally. Excellent post. Bret said he would have dropped the belt the next night on Raw where a much bigger audience would have seen Shawn's win and Bret could have left the way he wanted ( even though he did not want to leave) but at least it was something. Bret also offered to drop it to Austin, Undertaker, Shamrock or "hell even Lombardi at the Garden." So while Bret has heat for not jobbing to Shawn, why was it so important for Michaels to win it?
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 26, 2013 6:55:17 GMT -5
Bret said he would drop the strap the next night on Raw where a much bigger audience would see Shawn's win and Bret could leave the way he wanted ( even though he did not want to leave) but at least it was something. Bret also offered to drop it to Austin, Undertaker, Shamrock or "hell even Lombardi at the Garden." So while Bret get's heat for not jobbing to Shawn, why was it so important for Michaels to win it?Because Michaels was the one who Vince wanted as his figure-head for the foreseeable future. It would have been silly of him not to try and get one over on the competition by having 'his guy' beat 'their guy'. The expectation then after all would have been for Bret to be the face of WCW. The fact it never turned out that way is something Vince at the time couldn't have foreseen. And I go back to 1993. Bret moans about how Hogan didn't do the right thing and refused to put him over and instead chose Yokozuna but it's fine for Bret to not do the right thing and refuse to put over who the promoter wanted because he was willing to put over someone else? The two scenarios don't seem that different, only Bret was going directly to the competition (Hogan at the time wasn't). Yet it seems as if whichever side of the coin Bret's on, he's the party that's apparently the victim. Refusing to job to someone before you leave but be willing to job to someone else if it happens to Bret is a great injustice, if it's Bret who does it then it's fine. "Hogan? SOB, he refused to put me over but was willing to put over Yokozuna Me? I refused to put over Shawn but it was fine because I was willing to put over Taker."
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 26, 2013 8:42:12 GMT -5
Bret said he would drop the strap the next night on Raw where a much bigger audience would see Shawn's win and Bret could leave the way he wanted ( even though he did not want to leave) but at least it was something. Bret also offered to drop it to Austin, Undertaker, Shamrock or "hell even Lombardi at the Garden." So while Bret get's heat for not jobbing to Shawn, why was it so important for Michaels to win it?Because Michaels was the one who Vince wanted as his figure-head for the foreseeable future. It would have been silly of him not to try and get one over on the competition by having 'his guy' beat 'their guy'. The expectation then after all would have been for Bret to be the face of WCW. The fact it never turned out that way is something Vince at the time couldn't have foreseen. And I go back to 1993. Bret moans about how Hogan didn't do the right thing and refused to put him over and instead chose Yokozuna but it's fine for Bret to not do the right thing and refuse to put over who the promoter wanted because he was willing to put over someone else? The two scenarios don't seem that different, only Bret was going directly to the competition (Hogan at the time wasn't). Yet it seems as if whichever side of the coin Bret's on, he's the party that's apparently the victim. Refusing to job to someone before you leave but be willing to job to someone else if it happens to Bret is a great injustice, if it's Bret who does it then it's fine. "Hogan? SOB, he refused to put me over but was willing to put over Yokozuna Me? I refused to put over Shawn but it was fine because I was willing to put over Taker." HBK was a scumbag whom Bret got into a legit fight with, built upon a few years of animosity. It was personal and a powderkeg. It wasn't in any way the usual leaving the territory situation. The time honored tradition stuff is actually a carny line used by the promoters and hardly ever adhered to or really respected by the talent. Almost every top star in wrestling's history protected their self-interests as independent contractors and their own "brands", or negotiated who they wanted to lose to on their way out (usually a friend, or someone they knew they could work a program with again down the line.). Flair refused to lay down for Luger in '91. Hulk Hogan bounced out of AWA without putting over a single soul. Goldberg got to go out on top of WWE's own creation. Randy Savage got a nice warm send off without having to do a job. Warrior never did a single job in any of his WWF company departures. Trish Stratus got to retire as WWE Women's champion. The list goes on and on. That said, I can't really feel bad for Vince. He backed a horse that refused to put over anyone, and threatened to quit the promotion just a few months before. It was an idiotic booking decision that didn't even make any business sense. HBK was a great talent, but his departure would have been just as insignificant financially overall to WWE as Bret's was. He was Austin's designated fall guy for Mania regardless. It's not like he was even going to be the top guy, or was the top guy. He was going to work a program with Hunter post Mania had he not been injured.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Nov 26, 2013 9:01:27 GMT -5
I dunno if it was lying or completely or not, but Bret completely gave the wrong version of how the ending of the match went. In his book he said the plan was for Davey to shake his hand, but Davey got caught up celebrating and had Bret waiting around like an idiot in the ring and Bret had to go over to him and Diana to shake his hand. THat's... not exactly how the ending goes. Match is on youtube.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 26, 2013 9:08:31 GMT -5
I dunno if it was lying or completely or not, but Bret completely gave the wrong version of how the ending of the match went. In his book he said the plan was for Davey to shake his hand, but Davey got caught up celebrating and had Bret waiting around like an idiot in the ring and Bret had to go over to him and Diana to shake his hand. THat's... not exactly how the ending goes. Match is on youtube. What was supposed to happen is that Davy, Diana and McMahon and Heenan all stand up and each walk over to Bret with a tear in their eye to thank him for his time as IC champion. Then pyro to close.
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