Incognito
ALF
Putting the fun back in funeral
Posts: 1,024
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Post by Incognito on Nov 28, 2013 8:08:07 GMT -5
Does Jake also mention that little story where he was Stu Hart's North American Heavyweight Champion (you know the guy you count on to draw delicious money) and decided that for 6 or 7 weeks he was going to fake a knee injury that was bad enough that he did not wrestle, cost the company cash, would walk on crutches in front of the boys with pained expressions all because he wanted to relax? Jake was staying at Bret's house in '79 and when Hart left one morning to wrestle, he (Bret) had to turn back around to get something he forgot. He then of course sees Jake moving around the kitchen, with no crutches, making himself breakfast. That didn't stop Jake from meeting Bret at the door with the crutches and the stupid pained expressions. Bret did not confront him about it but Stu made subtle remarks to Jake to get him back in the ring. Could it be that Jake doesn't care for that little diddy being brought to light? If more and more wrestlers start talking about the "Bret Hart myth of being safe" then it will be what it will be but if Jake is the only one were going on here....well....yeah. Bless his recovered health and may he stay clean btw. DDP also said it. But what difference does it make. Why must anything anyone ever says negative about Bret get into a character assassination about the person making the comment? "Oh well, did he mention that time at grade school when he was expelled for cheating during an English exam?" Anything that deviates from the 'Bret was perfect' line is subject to a personality inspection of the person who made the suggestion. Jake calling Bret stiff in the ring has nothing to do with if he cheated on his wife, smoked crack, didn't pay a train fare, faked an injury or incorrectly filed tax returns for the years 1990-1994. That's twice in one thread someone has replied with "Ah but did he also mention..." as if to say anything negative about Bret you need to be subject to a complete character review. Anything that pricks his "I was light as a feather and never hurt anyone" self-anointed opinion. The whole book seems devoid of any genuine introspection. Everything that went well he takes 100% credit for. Anything that went wrong was somehow someone else's fault. All interspersed with Hogan-esque delusions of grandeur. Frankly he comes across as an arrogant prick who doesn't seem to acknowledge his own flaws as a draw, performer or human being. It's like a book a therapist would advise someone suffering from low self-confidence to write. He says he wore glasses in the early years of his promos to stop people noticing his eyes darting around. But from memory that's as self-critical as he gets. All other wrestling books are filed with "I was a dick there" and "I screwed that up" and "Blame me for that" and "I felt I really let people down". Bret's? "I was great, it was those others that's to blame!" The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Nov 28, 2013 10:42:24 GMT -5
DDP also said it. But what difference does it make. Why must anything anyone ever says negative about Bret get into a character assassination about the person making the comment? "Oh well, did he mention that time at grade school when he was expelled for cheating during an English exam?" Anything that deviates from the 'Bret was perfect' line is subject to a personality inspection of the person who made the suggestion. Jake calling Bret stiff in the ring has nothing to do with if he cheated on his wife, smoked crack, didn't pay a train fare, faked an injury or incorrectly filed tax returns for the years 1990-1994. That's twice in one thread someone has replied with "Ah but did he also mention..." as if to say anything negative about Bret you need to be subject to a complete character review. Anything that pricks his "I was light as a feather and never hurt anyone" self-anointed opinion. The whole book seems devoid of any genuine introspection. Everything that went well he takes 100% credit for. Anything that went wrong was somehow someone else's fault. All interspersed with Hogan-esque delusions of grandeur. Frankly he comes across as an arrogant prick who doesn't seem to acknowledge his own flaws as a draw, performer or human being. It's like a book a therapist would advise someone suffering from low self-confidence to write. He says he wore glasses in the early years of his promos to stop people noticing his eyes darting around. But from memory that's as self-critical as he gets. All other wrestling books are filed with "I was a dick there" and "I screwed that up" and "Blame me for that" and "I felt I really let people down". Bret's? "I was great, it was those others that's to blame!" The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that. Not injury related but Sid has said working with Bret was liking pulling teeth, and Nash also said that he and Taker got into it because Bret didn't like the ending of his cage match with Diesel (where Taker attacked Diesel allowing Bret to win) because it made Bret "look weak" and Taker had to tell him that it wasn't all about him.
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Post by johnnytightlips on Nov 28, 2013 12:54:31 GMT -5
The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that. Not injury related but Sid has said working with Bret was liking pulling teeth, and Nash also said that he and Taker got into it because Bret didn't like the ending of his cage match with Diesel (where Taker attacked Diesel allowing Bret to win) because it made Bret "look weak" and Taker had to tell him that it wasn't all about him. Yeah I heard about that, Bret didn't want to take Kevin's finisher even though their match was going to end in a draw, as I think that was when Taker came through the ring. "Oh, the people will get the illusion that I was beat." Man, talk about being full of yourself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2013 12:57:45 GMT -5
Not injury related but Sid has said working with Bret was liking pulling teeth, and Nash also said that he and Taker got into it because Bret didn't like the ending of his cage match with Diesel (where Taker attacked Diesel allowing Bret to win) because it made Bret "look weak" and Taker had to tell him that it wasn't all about him. Yeah I heard about that, Bret didn't want to take Kevin's finisher even though their match was going to end in a draw, as I think that was when Taker came through the ring. "Oh, the people will get the illusion that I was beat." Man, talk about being full of yourself. I actually agree with Bret. It's poor booking. A face champion should not need anyone's help to win a match when the heel himself hasn't had any help.
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67 more
King Koopa
He's just a Sexy Kurt
Posts: 11,584
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Post by 67 more on Nov 28, 2013 14:31:25 GMT -5
The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that. Not injury related but Sid has said working with Bret was liking pulling teeth, and Nash also said that he and Taker got into it because Bret didn't like the ending of his cage match with Diesel (where Taker attacked Diesel allowing Bret to win) because it made Bret "look weak" and Taker had to tell him that it wasn't all about him. I find it hilarious that Sid says working with Bret was hard.
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Incognito
ALF
Putting the fun back in funeral
Posts: 1,024
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Post by Incognito on Nov 28, 2013 16:38:06 GMT -5
Yeah I heard about that, Bret didn't want to take Kevin's finisher even though their match was going to end in a draw, as I think that was when Taker came through the ring. "Oh, the people will get the illusion that I was beat." Man, talk about being full of yourself. I actually agree with Bret. It's poor booking. A face champion should not need anyone's help to win a match when the heel himself hasn't had any help. Good point. Why weaken the face of the company? Why make it look like the face champion only has the belt because he gets lucky breaks? It happens and it's bad booking. When I picture fans yelling at the ring something to the effect of "You're the champ because you got help! You got lucky!", I don't really see them naturally following up with "You're my hero!" I don't know any sports fans who proudly admit that their team got lucky in the finals and won it all with the other team's help. When a champion knows he shouldn't really be there and the fans know it too, why not turn him heal instead? The type of deal Nash wanted is a finish better suited for a heel champion like Flair. He's the guy that always manages to get away with it.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Nov 28, 2013 16:58:29 GMT -5
Come on guys, let's not make excuses for that boring, delusional Canadian MARK. *rolls eyes* If Diesel wants you to lose, you lose!
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Post by Medicinal Thunder Liger on Nov 28, 2013 17:10:47 GMT -5
just for clarification, Bret WAS better than Shawn.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,066
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Post by dav on Nov 28, 2013 17:41:05 GMT -5
I actually agree with Bret. It's poor booking. A face champion should not need anyone's help to win a match when the heel himself hasn't had any help. Good point. Why weaken the face of the company? He wasn't, Shawn was. Bret was basically carrying the belt for Shawn at that point.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Nov 28, 2013 18:11:30 GMT -5
Good point. Why weaken the face of the company? He wasn't, Shawn was. Bret was basically carrying the belt for Shawn at that point. And it would not have made Shawn look very good if the guy he beat needed help from a fellow face.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,066
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Post by dav on Nov 28, 2013 18:38:40 GMT -5
He wasn't, Shawn was. Bret was basically carrying the belt for Shawn at that point. And it would not have made Shawn look very good if the guy he beat needed help from a fellow face. It does when the question of whether or not the Champion can beat Diesel is settled by the guy you actually want to be Champion. Shawn went on to beat Diesel decisively, thus giving him the rub from Diesel, rather than Bret.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2013 19:11:45 GMT -5
It's always weird to me when people talk about Bret being morally right in the USA vs Canada feud. Like they somehow forgot what a huge jerk he was being and all the times the Foundation jumped people.
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Post by jason1980s on Nov 28, 2013 19:17:40 GMT -5
It's always weird to me when people talk about Bret being morally right in the USA vs Canada feud. Like they somehow forgot what a huge jerk he was being and all the times the Foundation jumped people. Maybe some saw it as they were fighting a worse opposition. Some may not have liked Austin's cursing and rule breaking or DX's ways. Almost like rooting for Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies knowing he was killing people worse than himself.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 28, 2013 19:32:34 GMT -5
But besides all the moralities of it and rights and wrongs, and credibility and who was whose hero...
...he was a character in a scripted television show. I honestly do think the lines between fantasy and reality get blurred for Bret. He was in a storyline he wasn't really 'standing up against America' and I think Canadian fans should probably be credited with having the intelligence to work that out.
Sometimes in wrestling the hero loses. That's what happens. Fans would have been able to deal with that. There have been people far more over than Bret who have been able to take a loss on the chin. Again I think he overstates his 'overness'. The most that would have happened is some people would have said "Bret losing sucks" before the words "anyway, let's grab a beer".
His loss wouldn't have spiked suicide rates. It's as if he thinks there'd be national mourning in Canada, questions in parliament, demonstrations on the streets, looting, anarchy. It's wrestling Bret, get over it.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 29, 2013 3:08:23 GMT -5
DDP also said it. But what difference does it make. Why must anything anyone ever says negative about Bret get into a character assassination about the person making the comment? "Oh well, did he mention that time at grade school when he was expelled for cheating during an English exam?" Anything that deviates from the 'Bret was perfect' line is subject to a personality inspection of the person who made the suggestion. Jake calling Bret stiff in the ring has nothing to do with if he cheated on his wife, smoked crack, didn't pay a train fare, faked an injury or incorrectly filed tax returns for the years 1990-1994. That's twice in one thread someone has replied with "Ah but did he also mention..." as if to say anything negative about Bret you need to be subject to a complete character review. Anything that pricks his "I was light as a feather and never hurt anyone" self-anointed opinion. The whole book seems devoid of any genuine introspection. Everything that went well he takes 100% credit for. Anything that went wrong was somehow someone else's fault. All interspersed with Hogan-esque delusions of grandeur. Frankly he comes across as an arrogant prick who doesn't seem to acknowledge his own flaws as a draw, performer or human being. It's like a book a therapist would advise someone suffering from low self-confidence to write. He says he wore glasses in the early years of his promos to stop people noticing his eyes darting around. But from memory that's as self-critical as he gets. All other wrestling books are filed with "I was a dick there" and "I screwed that up" and "Blame me for that" and "I felt I really let people down". Bret's? "I was great, it was those others that's to blame!" The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that. Someone sure has claimed Bret injured people before, Bret! Yeah, it's right in his book, how he heeled Macho during a match. I forget Macho's exact injury, but Bret hurt him. People get hurt in wrestling, what Bret says and it's an important distinction, is that he never injured someone to the point they missed a match. You're just a stupid ass if you think he's claiming he never gave someone a black eye, or cut them, or bruised them, you know, injuries. I know it's tough for some people to look past their hatred to see the things he actually says are, but yeah, he's injured people, he admits it, in his own words. Also I believe Bad News and the Harts have heat dating all the way back to Stampede, even if Bret's good word (he says) got Bad News into WWF or Bad News wound up back in Stampede in the 90's or early 00's, before he died.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 29, 2013 3:14:46 GMT -5
Even saying you've never injured someone to a point of missing a match isn't a huge deal as guys never missed matches back then if they could help it, injured or not.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 29, 2013 3:22:49 GMT -5
Even saying you've never injured someone to a point of missing a match isn't a huge deal as guys never missed matches back then if they could help it, injured or not. It may not be a big deal to you, but it's something he takes pride in in his high risk career. Plenty of other people can't say that and in a world where everything is pretend and you've got someone's life in your hands, it seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to take pride in to me.
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Incognito
ALF
Putting the fun back in funeral
Posts: 1,024
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Post by Incognito on Nov 29, 2013 5:09:17 GMT -5
The reason I find Jake's comment strange is that he says Bret was "dangerous." This is another level. If he had said something like "Bret did in fact injure Bad News Allen with a chair back in the Stampede days and thus cannot claim to have never injured an opponent" then that would be that; Jake would be confirming what Bad News said and I have no reason to believe Bad News would lie about that. But to say that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" is something else all together. As for DDP, he says in that shoot that "just because Bret didn't hurt anybody...he was stiff as hell." So DDP does not say that Bret was dangerous or injured guys. If we go by what DDP says (an awesome human being btw) then there is a difference between working stiff and being dangerous, reckless and being known as a guy to injure opponents. Bret wrestled for 23 years and had around 4000 matches total, and in that time Bad News got injured. That's impressive. I read what Bad News said about that moment and it's a shame it happened but fortunately he doesn't say that his career was affected by Bret. I'm sure Bad News would've said so if it did. Has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? It's possible but like I said, if Jake's view is what were going with to say Hart is dangerous...well...I have my doubts. If more guys come out of the woodwork then that will be that. Someone sure has claimed Bret injured people before, Bret! Yeah, it's right in his book, how he heeled Macho during a match. I forget Macho's exact injury, but Bret hurt him. People get hurt in wrestling, what Bret says and it's an important distinction, is that he never injured someone to the point they missed a match. You're just a stupid ass if you think he's claiming he never gave someone a black eye, or cut them, or bruised them, you know, injuries. I know it's tough for some people to look past their hatred to see the things he actually says are, but yeah, he's injured people, he admits it, in his own words. Also I believe Bad News and the Harts have heat dating all the way back to Stampede, even if Bret's good word (he says) got Bad News into WWF or Bad News wound up back in Stampede in the 90's or early 00's, before he died. Exactly. That's why I take Jake's statement that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" as something strange to say. So far I've never heard that one. Being "dangerous" is a whole other level above being stiff and I don't buy it. We know about the Bad News Allen deal. I'm no fan of Bad News and his heat with the Harts is documented but so far I have no reason to think he would make that injury up. In 23 years and 4000 matches has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone at all come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? So far we have a grand total of 1 for the former and a grand total of 0 for the latter. That's where Bret's claim comes from. The worst we're hearing is that he was stiff. It's par for the course in this business. It should be no surprise that a few guys will get a sore this or that at the end of a 10/20 minute match. A little limping (Randy Savage), a sore hip, a sore whatever may occur. It happens and will happen. When I see a news headline saying "Wrestler gets injured at Raw", I don't think about a stiff match. I think about a severe injury; a wrestler that may require surgery, rehab, time off to heal and whose career may be affected. Something serious.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,399
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 29, 2013 5:53:38 GMT -5
Someone sure has claimed Bret injured people before, Bret! Yeah, it's right in his book, how he heeled Macho during a match. I forget Macho's exact injury, but Bret hurt him. People get hurt in wrestling, what Bret says and it's an important distinction, is that he never injured someone to the point they missed a match. You're just a stupid ass if you think he's claiming he never gave someone a black eye, or cut them, or bruised them, you know, injuries. I know it's tough for some people to look past their hatred to see the things he actually says are, but yeah, he's injured people, he admits it, in his own words. Also I believe Bad News and the Harts have heat dating all the way back to Stampede, even if Bret's good word (he says) got Bad News into WWF or Bad News wound up back in Stampede in the 90's or early 00's, before he died. Exactly. That's why I take Jake's statement that Bret was "dangerous in the ring" as something strange to say. So far I've never heard that one. Being "dangerous" is a whole other level above being stiff and I don't buy it. We know about the Bad News Allen deal. I'm no fan of Bad News and his heat with the Harts is documented but so far I have no reason to think he would make that injury up. In 23 years and 4000 matches has anyone else come forward with an injury story? Has anyone at all come forward with an injury caused by Bret that affected their career? So far we have a grand total of 1 for the former and a grand total of 0 for the latter. That's where Bret's claim comes from. The worst we're hearing is that he was stiff. It's par for the course in this business. It should be no surprise that a few guys will get a sore this or that at the end of a 10/20 minute match. A little limping (Randy Savage), a sore hip, a sore whatever may occur. It happens and will happen. When I see a news headline saying "Wrestler gets injured at Raw", I don't think about a stiff match. I think about a severe injury; a wrestler that may require surgery, rehab, time off to heal and whose career may be affected. Something serious. I dunno about you, but I love everyone who worked stiff, except Bret.
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Post by KobashiChop on Nov 29, 2013 16:06:22 GMT -5
I recently read Bret's book as well, and to put it in a sentence, there isn't any story that i legitimately don't believe in there. But his sheer marking out for himself really drags the book down a little. You can tell the whole thing reeks of "hurt ego".
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