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Post by angryfan on Nov 27, 2013 15:58:53 GMT -5
I think the only reason Bryan didn't win the title is he'd have literally no one to face. Think about it, name main event credible heels right now. I can't. Hell Orton isn't even one and regardless of the "face of the wwe" storyline, he hasn't been for quite a while now. But even if you're willing to accept Orton as one, Bryan would have to move on from him so he can't be used anyway. You could have him wrestle HHH I guess. That's how bad the main event heel scene is, that I'm having to put him against HHH who works a couple matches a year. I agree that there is a lack of credible main event, solo act, heels. However, haven't they painted themselves into a corner here? Someone, anyone, has to come out of this looking good. They're not elevating or making any heels with this, no solo acts anyway. The Shield looks good, but they've been looking good for a year. So it's to Orton/Cena now. Does Cena do the job and "give the rub" to Orton? Two guys who came up together and have been pushed as the top two guys in the company for almost a decade. This doesn't make new heels, or new faces, or new anything. I guess Big Show? He's, you know, fresh-ish, with that 14 year run he's had in the company. Kane? Triple H? The only people that CAN be elevated out of this storyline that aren't already established, at all, are The Shield, and The Wyatts. The Shield, I'd argue is already over as a main event group, and Reigns and Ambrose are on the verge of being main event solo acts. Rollins could be, I guess, but as a trip they're already there. SO process of elimination. Of all the people involved in the main storyline of the company, all 14 people (Triphanie, Kane, Show, The Shield, The Wyatts, D Bry, Punk, Cena, Orton, Vickie, and Maddox), we have the following. An 11 time champion, Attitude Era star Boss's daughter 14 time champion and face of the company for the last 10 years 11 time champion, third generation performer a 14 year veteran, multi-time world champion Kane, who has done about all one can do in the company 2 General Managers A three man group who have been pushed as a main event stable for a full year, former tag champions and current US champion A three man group of creepy newcomers A multi-time world champion, and hottest act in the company 2 years ago, heat magnet as heel or face A white hot babyface who came back from pissing off the sponsors and being fired, an 18 second loss at Mania, and a throwaway tag team with Kane that got over huge. They can finish elevating D-Bry, and MAKE him with the iconic moment that the big names have. OR, they can shift to someone else. Of the others involved in the storyline, can anyone else benefit from getting the "moment"?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 27, 2013 16:04:55 GMT -5
I think the only reason Bryan didn't win the title is he'd have literally no one to face. Think about it, name main event credible heels right now. I can't. Hell Orton isn't even one and regardless of the "face of the wwe" storyline, he hasn't been for quite a while now. But even if you're willing to accept Orton as one, Bryan would have to move on from him so he can't be used anyway. You could have him wrestle HHH I guess. That's how bad the main event heel scene is, that I'm having to put him against HHH who works a couple matches a year. I agree that there is a lack of credible main event, solo act, heels. However, haven't they painted themselves into a corner here? Someone, anyone, has to come out of this looking good. They're not elevating or making any heels with this, no solo acts anyway. The Shield looks good, but they've been looking good for a year. So it's to Orton/Cena now. Does Cena do the job and "give the rub" to Orton? Two guys who came up together and have been pushed as the top two guys in the company for almost a decade. This doesn't make new heels, or new faces, or new anything. I guess Big Show? He's, you know, fresh-ish, with that 14 year run he's had in the company. Kane? Triple H? The only people that CAN be elevated out of this storyline that aren't already established, at all, are The Shield, and The Wyatts. The Shield, I'd argue is already over as a main event group, and Reigns and Ambrose are on the verge of being main event solo acts. Rollins could be, I guess, but as a trip they're already there. SO process of elimination. Of all the people involved in the main storyline of the company, all 14 people (Triphanie, Kane, Show, The Shield, The Wyatts, D Bry, Punk, Cena, Orton, Vickie, and Maddox), we have the following. An 11 time champion, Attitude Era star Boss's daughter 14 time champion and face of the company for the last 10 years 11 time champion, third generation performer a 14 year veteran, multi-time world champion Kane, who has done about all one can do in the company 2 General Managers A three man group who have been pushed as a main event stable for a full year, former tag champions and current US champion A three man group of creepy newcomers A multi-time world champion, and hottest act in the company 2 years ago, heat magnet as heel or face A white hot babyface who came back from pissing off the sponsors and being fired, an 18 second loss at Mania, and a throwaway tag team with Kane that got over huge. They can finish elevating D-Bry, and MAKE him with the iconic moment that the big names have. OR, they can shift to someone else. Of the others involved in the storyline, can anyone else benefit from getting the "moment"? This is why I have hopes that they rebuild and then push the Miz. Yeah, I know it isnt bloody likely, but he would be a logical choice as a credible main event heel if done right. He was on fire as US champion/MITB holder....then he cashed in. From there it was all downhill. Hell, right around that same time, they had a guy who was on the cusp of being a main event heel in Wade Barrett....before the screwed that up too. Noticing a trend?
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Post by Dave the Dave on Nov 27, 2013 16:30:26 GMT -5
We just want logic to the storyline they set up. It's like Kaitlyn vs. AJ. The heel continually gets the upper hand and then.......nothing. The heel had to get the upper hand in that feud, unless you want the face to hold the title forever. Not to mention, AJ was, and still is the most over diva on the roster, so she deserved a decent length title reign. Even if she kept the title there should be some sort of catharsis. You just call someone fat and ugly then kick their ass and....continue to be a shit? That's not even a story at that point. AJ is over but Kaitlyn could have gotten even more over if they tried AT ALL. And if AJ being most over means she keeps the belt, Bryan should have been champ for the last 3 months.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 27, 2013 16:46:31 GMT -5
Unfortunately yes, even though people seem to forget that the most popular guy doesn't necessarily mean "best to main event" I know it's the logic the WWE use, but it doesn't really make sense, if people are reacting to a guy even if they're poorly booked, buying his merchandise, chanting his name during matches and generally enjoying themselves more when he's in action over the long term, it should count for something. If being over doesn't mean you're a good choice for a decent main event title run, what does? I do wonder sometimes if there's some there some magical 'it' factor that guys Sheamus, Del Rio, Orton and HHH himself have that I'm not seeing, that means they should always be booked to be in or around the title picture no matter what the audience want. Having the quality of a main event level player. The Godfather was really popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Crash Holly was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Scotty 2 Hotty was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 19:14:51 GMT -5
I know it's the logic the WWE use, but it doesn't really make sense, if people are reacting to a guy even if they're poorly booked, buying his merchandise, chanting his name during matches and generally enjoying themselves more when he's in action over the long term, it should count for something. If being over doesn't mean you're a good choice for a decent main event title run, what does? I do wonder sometimes if there's some there some magical 'it' factor that guys Sheamus, Del Rio, Orton and HHH himself have that I'm not seeing, that means they should always be booked to be in or around the title picture no matter what the audience want. Having the quality of a main event level player. The Godfather was really popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Crash Holly was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Scotty 2 Hotty was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event Asinine comparison. Godfather and Crash Holly were never the most over guys on the roster, nor were they anywhere close to the best overall performers. They weren't on the level of Austin, Rock, Undertaker, even Benoit, Angle, Jericho. That's where Daniel Bryan is right now, he gets the biggest reactions and is right in the thick of it in terms of the best performers.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Nov 27, 2013 19:17:26 GMT -5
I agree that there is a lack of credible main event, solo act, heels. However, haven't they painted themselves into a corner here? Someone, anyone, has to come out of this looking good. They're not elevating or making any heels with this, no solo acts anyway. The Shield looks good, but they've been looking good for a year. So it's to Orton/Cena now. Does Cena do the job and "give the rub" to Orton? Two guys who came up together and have been pushed as the top two guys in the company for almost a decade. This doesn't make new heels, or new faces, or new anything. I guess Big Show? He's, you know, fresh-ish, with that 14 year run he's had in the company. Kane? Triple H? The only people that CAN be elevated out of this storyline that aren't already established, at all, are The Shield, and The Wyatts. The Shield, I'd argue is already over as a main event group, and Reigns and Ambrose are on the verge of being main event solo acts. Rollins could be, I guess, but as a trip they're already there. SO process of elimination. Of all the people involved in the main storyline of the company, all 14 people (Triphanie, Kane, Show, The Shield, The Wyatts, D Bry, Punk, Cena, Orton, Vickie, and Maddox), we have the following. An 11 time champion, Attitude Era star Boss's daughter 14 time champion and face of the company for the last 10 years 11 time champion, third generation performer a 14 year veteran, multi-time world champion Kane, who has done about all one can do in the company 2 General Managers A three man group who have been pushed as a main event stable for a full year, former tag champions and current US champion A three man group of creepy newcomers A multi-time world champion, and hottest act in the company 2 years ago, heat magnet as heel or face A white hot babyface who came back from pissing off the sponsors and being fired, an 18 second loss at Mania, and a throwaway tag team with Kane that got over huge. They can finish elevating D-Bry, and MAKE him with the iconic moment that the big names have. OR, they can shift to someone else. Of the others involved in the storyline, can anyone else benefit from getting the "moment"? This is why I have hopes that they rebuild and then push the Miz. Yeah, I know it isnt bloody likely, but he would be a logical choice as a credible main event heel if done right. He was on fire as US champion/MITB holder....then he cashed in. From there it was all downhill. Hell, right around that same time, they had a guy who was on the cusp of being a main event heel in Wade Barrett....before the screwed that up too. Noticing a trend? They should definitely rebuild Barrett as a top heel. Personally, I think Miz should've been the secondary face of the Authority Angle, not Big Show. Since Bryan couldn't chase Orton forever, Miz should've been the guy doing the filler feud with Orton at Survivor Series. Miz should've gotten one last chance at glory before going down in a blaze of glory and settling into a #4 or #5 face role, a featured upper midcarder with the credibility to main event when needed.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 27, 2013 20:53:52 GMT -5
Having the quality of a main event level player. The Godfather was really popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Crash Holly was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event. Scotty 2 Hotty was popular but I wouldn't want to see him in the main event Asinine comparison. Godfather and Crash Holly were never the most over guys on the roster, nor were they anywhere close to the best overall performers. They weren't on the level of Austin, Rock, Undertaker, even Benoit, Angle, Jericho. That's where Daniel Bryan is right now, he gets the biggest reactions and is right in the thick of it in terms of the best performers. I responded to a question saying "if being over doesn't make you good enough to be a main eventer" and listed people who were over but shouldn't have been main eventers. Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 27, 2013 21:01:42 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality Yeah, WWE wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat the modern day version of Hulk Hogan (Cena), clean as a sheet on the third biggest PPV of the year. They wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat Randy Orton clean twice in a year. They wouldn't give Tyson Kidd a WWE title. They wouldn't protect Tyson Kidd so he hasn't had a clean loss in months He's not the face of the company, he's not going to lead the new boom period, but he's the second or thrid most important face in the company. To say he's not a main eventer is just...what?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 27, 2013 21:19:41 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality Yeah, WWE wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat the modern day version of Hulk Hogan (Cena), clean as a sheet on the third biggest PPV of the year. They wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat Randy Orton clean twice in a year. They wouldn't give Tyson Kidd a WWE title. They wouldn't protect Tyson Kidd so he hasn't had a clean loss in months He's not the face of the company, he's not going to lead the new boom period, but he's the second or thrid most important face in the company. To say he's not a main eventer is just...what? To me, he can't as a babyface believably end a pay-per-view as a babyface on his own like someone like Cena can. Turn him heel again and then we'll talk because I always felt his character worked a lot better as a bad guy.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 21:24:29 GMT -5
Asinine comparison. Godfather and Crash Holly were never the most over guys on the roster, nor were they anywhere close to the best overall performers. They weren't on the level of Austin, Rock, Undertaker, even Benoit, Angle, Jericho. That's where Daniel Bryan is right now, he gets the biggest reactions and is right in the thick of it in terms of the best performers. I responded to a question saying "if being over doesn't make you good enough to be a main eventer" and listed people who were over but shouldn't have been main eventers. Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality To you. Luckily, to all the tens of thousands that vastly outnumber you, your opinion on star power is statistically insignificant and will never matter.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 21:29:59 GMT -5
Yeah, WWE wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat the modern day version of Hulk Hogan (Cena), clean as a sheet on the third biggest PPV of the year. They wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat Randy Orton clean twice in a year. They wouldn't give Tyson Kidd a WWE title. They wouldn't protect Tyson Kidd so he hasn't had a clean loss in months He's not the face of the company, he's not going to lead the new boom period, but he's the second or thrid most important face in the company. To say he's not a main eventer is just...what? To me, he can't as a babyface believably end a pay-per-view as a babyface on his own like someone like Cena can. Turn him heel again and then we'll talk because I always felt his character worked a lot better as a bad guy. I think that's exactly where you're wrong, and here's why: What drama--over winner and loser--does a John Cena match really have these days? If he wins, status quo. If he loses, he always returns. Compare to Bryan: IF he won out, he'd still be champion. Now, a bunch of hillbillies have captured him. It's the guys who aren't as believable, who make the best faces. The best face is someone who leaves you seriously considering if he'll win or he won't. It adds so much drama, speculation and uncertainty to the show. It's what gets the adrenaline flowing. A guy who is always going to be important, no matter what? Not quite so interesting. At least, I don't think so. The most exciting star I saw wrestle anywhere near the main event in the past five years was John Morrison. Why? Not because he was the best wrestler, or the best talker (HA!) or the best anything. But one thing that his career told me was that if there was ever a time when he could inexplicably lose a match for no rhyme or reason, it would happen. When he feuded with Sheamus in 2010, I wasn't really sure what to make of it. The Sheamus matches were exciting. An anointed top heel facing a career midcarder who occasionally got pushed, with wins traded here and there; no match was a foregone conclusion. I had to watch because not only were the matches good, and the outcomes unclear, but the outcomes were important: I knew that if he lost, he'd be back to wasting away in the mid card, and if he won, there might be a new main eventer on the horizon. I think it's part of why so many fans find Bryan so exciting, because he reignited that same interest that I had back a few years ago. I didn't know if he would beat Cena or not, or beat anyone afterwards. But WWE made the mistake of having him lose out in the Business storyline, because now his losses are one-sided enough that there's no expectation that he can win a match with Orton, or whoever, since he never does.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 27, 2013 21:32:00 GMT -5
Yeah, WWE wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat the modern day version of Hulk Hogan (Cena), clean as a sheet on the third biggest PPV of the year. They wouldn't have Tyson Kidd beat Randy Orton clean twice in a year. They wouldn't give Tyson Kidd a WWE title. They wouldn't protect Tyson Kidd so he hasn't had a clean loss in months He's not the face of the company, he's not going to lead the new boom period, but he's the second or thrid most important face in the company. To say he's not a main eventer is just...what? To me, he can't as a babyface believably end a pay-per-view as a babyface on his own like someone like Cena can. Turn him heel again and then we'll talk because I always felt his character worked a lot better as a bad guy. Well he ended Night of Champions(I think that was the one) as the champion, and the crowd was on his side, not sure what else he's supposed to do as a believeably end that PPV. His heel work in early 2012 was pretty good, it just got cut short so we didn't get to see it develop more.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 27, 2013 21:37:55 GMT -5
I responded to a question saying "if being over doesn't make you good enough to be a main eventer" and listed people who were over but shouldn't have been main eventers. Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality To you. Luckily, to all the tens of thousands that vastly outnumber you, your opinion on star power is statistically insignificant and will never matter. Yeah the tens of thousands that outnumber me, not counting the millions who remain quiet on their opinion of pro wrestling and are the only people that matter when pleasing. I like Daniel Bryan, but I like to consider myself a blend of casual and smart fan. There's certain things that I personally look for in a guy for me to enjoy and a lot of the time, I'll enjoy a lot of people that others don't care for and vice versa. The casual side in me doesn't care about Daniel Bryan right now because he's just a generic dweeb who's a good wrestler. Considering what the ratings have been in between Cena's leave and return, I wouldn't be surprised if the casual majority also feels this way about the guy similar to Zack Ryder and CM Punk, two others who had live crowds loving them but not moving business. Yes you can tell me story all you want, but the authority stuff outside of the main events at pay-per-views was going fine up until recently.
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Nov 27, 2013 21:40:56 GMT -5
I responded to a question saying "if being over doesn't make you good enough to be a main eventer" and listed people who were over but shouldn't have been main eventers. Daniel Bryan is over, but he's not a main event guy, I'm sorry. He doesn't have the presence to come off as a big deal, he's just a more popular, slightly better version of Tyson Kidd with a beard, a chant, and slightly more personality To you. Luckily, to all the tens of thousands that vastly outnumber you, your opinion on star power is statistically insignificant and will never matter. The super over most amazing bestest wrestler in the world currently has the 10th best selling T-shirt behind CM Punk, Orton, Cena, Usos, Wyatts, and Rey Mysterio. Bryan has audience participation down and can pop a chant, I'm not convinced he can draw money.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 21:47:06 GMT -5
To you. Luckily, to all the tens of thousands that vastly outnumber you, your opinion on star power is statistically insignificant and will never matter. Yeah the tens of thousands that outnumber me, not counting the millions who remain quiet on their opinion of pro wrestling and are the only people that matter when pleasing. I like Daniel Bryan, but I like to consider myself a blend of casual and smart fan. There's certain things that I personally look for in a guy for me to enjoy and a lot of the time, I'll enjoy a lot of people that others don't care for and vice versa. The casual side in me doesn't care about Daniel Bryan right now because he's just a generic dweeb who's a good wrestler. Considering what the ratings have been in between Cena's leave and return, I wouldn't be surprised if the casual majority also feels this way about the guy similar to Zack Ryder and CM Punk, two others who had live crowds loving them but not moving business. Yes you can tell me story all you want, but the authority stuff outside of the main events at pay-per-views was going fine up until recently. You made a blanket statement that he is not main event material. You didn't word it in a way that sounded like opinion, but rather fact. That's why I wrote that comment. You seem, by your posts, to consider your view absolute. It's ridiculous.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 21:49:24 GMT -5
To you. Luckily, to all the tens of thousands that vastly outnumber you, your opinion on star power is statistically insignificant and will never matter. The super over most amazing bestest wrestler in the world currently has the 10th best selling T-shirt behind CM Punk, Orton, Cena, Usos, Wyatts, and Rey Mysterio. Bryan has audience participation down and can pop a chant, I'm not convinced he can draw money. Cool story, bro. Time will tell. And if he does not, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. But right now, he's over with the crowds, pretty much more than anyone. And that's a pretty good starting point.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 27, 2013 21:54:46 GMT -5
He's over with the crowds. He tends to get some of the loudest reactions of the night. He's been getting fairly consistent chants while he does his yes/no schtick and when he works in-ring matches for at least a year. At the very least, he gets consistent babyface reactions, more than can be said for someone like Cena (fans almost sound bored with him, yea or nay). Crowds pay to go to the show. People at home only pay for a cable subscription. They don't pay to watch Raw as TV programming. And Nielsen audiences account for such a segmented population of TV viewers (let alone the different ways people access TV content now, like Hulu, Youtube, and streaming). So unless we're not counting paying live audiences as being a part of Bryan's 'drawing potential'... but no one would seriously defend such an untenable position. Right? I mean, why else would they be chanting yes, no, and oooooooooooh, yes, especially when Bryan's involved?
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Nov 27, 2013 21:58:16 GMT -5
The super over most amazing bestest wrestler in the world currently has the 10th best selling T-shirt behind CM Punk, Orton, Cena, Usos, Wyatts, and Rey Mysterio. Bryan has audience participation down and can pop a chant, I'm not convinced he can draw money. Cool story, bro. Time will tell. And if he does not, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. But right now, he's over with the crowds, pretty much more than anyone. And that's a pretty good starting point. Maybe he can pull it off, but I still see way more Cena and Punk T-shirts and signs regularly. His chant is over as hell for whatever reason, but chants are free. People still chant WHAT? but that doesn't mean Austin put their asses in those seats.
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Post by BigWill on Nov 27, 2013 22:00:56 GMT -5
The heel had to get the upper hand in that feud, unless you want the face to hold the title forever. Not to mention, AJ was, and still is the most over diva on the roster, so she deserved a decent length title reign. Even if she kept the title there should be some sort of catharsis. You just call someone fat and ugly then kick their ass and....continue to be a shit? That's not even a story at that point. AJ is over but Kaitlyn could have gotten even more over if they tried AT ALL. And if AJ being most over means she keeps the belt, Bryan should have been champ for the last 3 months. Kaitlyn speared AJ on a weekly basis, and AJ lost most of her non-title matches. Then she ended up having every diva in the locker room, aside from Tamina, hate her. Not to mention Kaitlyn already had a lengthy title reign before feuding with AJ. What more comeuppance did AJ need? Have Kaitlyn beat AJ in every title defense, to the point where she starts looking like a joke? And this was AJ's first real storyline with another diva, so she had to win the feud.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 22:08:00 GMT -5
Cool story, bro. Time will tell. And if he does not, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. But right now, he's over with the crowds, pretty much more than anyone. And that's a pretty good starting point. Maybe he can pull it off, but I still see way more Cena and Punk T-shirts and signs regularly. His chant is over as hell for whatever reason, but chants are free. People still chant WHAT? but that doesn't mean Austin put their asses in those seats. It'll be interesting to see if WWE can come up with something marketable that can sell. Because the beard shirt is really the only unique merchandise item I can think of that Bryan pushes right now. Punk's t-shirts are at least cool and rock star looking, and Cena is Cena, the golden goose.
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