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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 28, 2013 18:25:02 GMT -5
He's nowhere on the card these days. The fans didn't just suddenly stop caring about Ryder, the WWE booked him in such a way that it didn't make sense to cheer for him anymore because he was constantly getting destroyed. Nobody really pretended like Ryder was 'great' but he could be a good midcard babyface. They took someone who was over with the fans and destroyed him over and over and over and over again of course eventually the fans are gonna stop caring. WWE made them stop caring about him. if I like a guy I'm cheering him until he does something I dislike. And losing is not something that I dislike. I don't boo losers for being losers. Others should try it. There's a difference between losing matches and being a loser who loses matches. Kofi Kingston is the former. He loses all the time, but he's certainly not treated as a loser by WWE since he's the go-to midcard babyface filler title holder guy. WWE booked Zack Ryder as the latter, because he got his ass kicked repeatedly by Kane, Eve Torres, and Jack Swagger and then he basically disappeared from being on Raw, the only show WWE really treats as being worthwhile, on even a semi-regular basis.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 28, 2013 18:39:26 GMT -5
I don't think they resent the audience so much as it is them not having a clue what to do anymore. Honestly, I'm too old to be watching WWE but it's a habit I picked when I was a mark kid. So sometimes I try to see the product through the eyes of a little, mark kid but I still wind up being confused. Like Miz being heel at the beginning of a segment and a face by the end. Mark kid, smark adult, either way, how are you supposed to react to that segment?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Nov 28, 2013 18:46:01 GMT -5
if I like a guy I'm cheering him until he does something I dislike. And losing is not something that I dislike. I don't boo losers for being losers. Others should try it. There's a difference between losing matches and being a loser who loses matches. Kofi Kingston is the former. He loses all the time, but he's certainly not treated as a loser by WWE since he's the go-to midcard babyface filler title holder guy. WWE booked Zack Ryder as the latter, because he got his ass kicked repeatedly by Kane, Eve Torres, and Jack Swagger and then he basically disappeared from being on Raw, the only show WWE really treats as being worthwhile, on even a semi-regular basis. so basically you don't want to try it. I will cheer anyone who behaves in a manner I like
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Nov 28, 2013 19:02:52 GMT -5
Another interesting topic, maybe for another thread, is how much so many WWE fans detest the WWE. That's a weird dynamic. As a poster said last page, some fans will give the WWE money and buy tickets "for the privilege to mess with them." Does this happen in any other part of the entertainment industry? The only thing that I think comes close is sports fans in certain northeast cities, who can develop a bitter, angry, loathing about the teams they "love". That's actually a good comparison. Generally those fans, while you see it often in the New York/Boston rivalry, will "hate" the team because of a perceived wrong. Releasing or trading a beloved player, bad moves by management, prolonged losing streak or something like that. It's not just "I'm gonna buy season tickets because I hate those bums" it's more like "I'm gonna keep going because I love this team, but I hate the owners and management". Well, I'd say it's closer in a different way, but not even just "northeast" fans. Right now, it's a common movement for sports fanbases [mostly basketball, but starting to move to American football as well] for the savvier members of the fanbase, who know their team sucks and has no chance at a title that year to openly root for the team they love to lose miserably and be dead last, solely so they can get a higher pick in the next year's draft (and presumably have a chance to get a can't miss, future superstar for their troubles who'll make the team that much better and give them chances to win titles in the future.) Really, doesn't "The particularly savvy fans, who feel that the product they're getting RIGHT NOW sucks and has no chance of getting better any time soon, then decide to flip the switch and start booing the product, messing with the product, and hoping that it fails miserably so that the team has the opportunity to go in another direction- giving the ball to a rising, seemingly can't miss prospect who will presumably be the one to take it back to the promised land" sound kind of like the fans who try to mess with WWE?
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 28, 2013 19:03:03 GMT -5
There's a difference between losing matches and being a loser who loses matches. Kofi Kingston is the former. He loses all the time, but he's certainly not treated as a loser by WWE since he's the go-to midcard babyface filler title holder guy. WWE booked Zack Ryder as the latter, because he got his ass kicked repeatedly by Kane, Eve Torres, and Jack Swagger and then he basically disappeared from being on Raw, the only show WWE really treats as being worthwhile, on even a semi-regular basis. so basically you don't want to try it. I will cheer anyone who behaves in a manner I like People will cheer who they like, but they want to see the people they like actually PUSHED. I like Yoshi, I cheer when he comes out, but he's barely on TV. Should people just be happy with that? Should people just be happy that the only credible midcard faces are Kofi and Santino? Should people be happy that the only new face midcarder is Big E (who I like, but still). Nobody should look at what they did with Ryder and go "Oh well he appears on Raw to job to Del Rio and nothing else, hip hooray."
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Nov 28, 2013 19:52:54 GMT -5
so basically you don't want to try it. I will cheer anyone who behaves in a manner I like People will cheer who they like, but they want to see the people they like actually PUSHED. I like Yoshi, I cheer when he comes out, but he's barely on TV. Should people just be happy with that? Should people just be happy that the only credible midcard faces are Kofi and Santino? Should people be happy that the only new face midcarder is Big E (who I like, but still). Nobody should look at what they did with Ryder and go "Oh well he appears on Raw to job to Del Rio and nothing else, hip hooray." so, why exactly do you have to think about everything that's going to happen when you see a guy you like. Cheer when he comes out. Boo when he loses. Think about what's happening in front of you, NOT the big picture. I suppose you could say nothing changes if you do that. But you aren't doing that. And nothing is still changing.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 28, 2013 20:16:14 GMT -5
One time, I was walking down the hallway and Vince smacked my books out of my hands.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 28, 2013 20:26:43 GMT -5
People will cheer who they like, but they want to see the people they like actually PUSHED. I like Yoshi, I cheer when he comes out, but he's barely on TV. Should people just be happy with that? Should people just be happy that the only credible midcard faces are Kofi and Santino? Should people be happy that the only new face midcarder is Big E (who I like, but still). Nobody should look at what they did with Ryder and go "Oh well he appears on Raw to job to Del Rio and nothing else, hip hooray." so, why exactly do you have to think about everything that's going to happen when you see a guy you like. Cheer when he comes out. Boo when he loses. Think about what's happening in front of you, NOT the big picture. I suppose you could say nothing changes if you do that. But you aren't doing that. And nothing is still changing. Say Ryder's my favourite wrestler in the whole wide world. I'd like to cheer when he comes out... except how often does Ryder come out on Raw? Pretty much never. So, if he never shows up, I can't cheer the guy. And if he's not in front of me, I can't think or not think about how he's being used, whether or not he's being booked decently or not, because he's not being booked at all. So I can't react any which way whatsoever because the guy I'm a fan of is a non-entity to the program. Like... I honestly don't get how this perspective makes any sense. I mean, more power to you if this is how you enjoy the show. Maybe if more people simply accepted the show for its mere appearance and existence they could find it enjoyable, fair enough. I just don't know how typical it is for anyone of any form of media to watch/read/play it and be happy for that encounter. I mean, I can't even measure the number of seconds Ryder is on Raw throughout the year because he's rarely on Raw altogehter. So I can simply be content with the fact that my favourite wrestler had X amount of face time because face time is committed to talent who really don't need more: John Cena, Triple H, Randy Orton, the Big Show, and sure, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan. Sure, if you're a fan of John Cena or Daniel Bryan, the world is your oyster, but regardless how you feel about their storylines, they actually have them. There's a large enough number of midcard and lower card talent who don't, most of whom barely appear on the main show at all. I want to see a guy I'm a fan of win. He doesn't need to be beating Cena clean as a sheet every night of the week. And I'd rather take a hard fought loss than nothing, but a lot of the lower card guys barely get that. Actual, definable personal characteristics, decent storylines, competitive and meaningful matches, characters who actually have goals and work towards achieving them... that's why a lot of people like the wrestlers they do, because of all these things. I'm a fan of the talent. I'm a fan of the matches. I can even be a fan of the angles if I think they're compelling and well-written. But none of these things are dependent upon me being a fan of WWE. The fact that a lot of the talent I like are in WWE is merely incidental. But I don't watch Raw because I'm a fan of WWE. I'm not the type of fan who can go "well, I'm watching WWE, and WWE is wrestling, so I really need no more than that." And for a lot of fans who are frustrated with the product, and those fans who stopped watching WWE altogether, I imagine they're not that kind of fan either. I don't know, maybe WWE wants more fans like you and not fans like me? So does WWE resent their fans? Not really. They simply prefer you over me.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 28, 2013 20:35:54 GMT -5
so, why exactly do you have to think about everything that's going to happen when you see a guy you like. Cheer when he comes out. Boo when he loses. Think about what's happening in front of you, NOT the big picture. I suppose you could say nothing changes if you do that. But you aren't doing that. And nothing is still changing. Yeah I do cheer when he comes out and boo when he loses. This isn't about heel/face alignments, it's about a guy, well Ryder, who deserved more than he got. I booed Kane and Eve for what they did and cheered for Ryder when he got revenge on them on that Summer Smackdown. But then...nothing happend with him. Nobody thought he was going to be a main eventer, at least not me, but to sell as much merchandise as he's capable of and not being able to be what Kofi and Santino are (getting wins and being competent midcarders on Raw), is just baffaling. I don't think being a popular midcard face who wins against other midcard faces and occasionally challenges for a US/IC title on the main shows isn't too much to ask for. That's not really a big picture, just a hope that should be easy to accomplish.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 28, 2013 21:08:56 GMT -5
If people like a certain wrestler, they want to see him or her do well. Merely seeing them appear every week isn't enough. People were supporting Ryder. So they wanted to see him do well. They didn't want to see him in a wheelchair or being stiffed over by John Cena in a contrived romance angle with Eve. WWE made sure they did everything in their power to dull the enthusiasm and kill any interest in him, for reasons known only to them.
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Post by xCompackx on Nov 28, 2013 21:12:34 GMT -5
so, why exactly do you have to think about everything that's going to happen when you see a guy you like. Cheer when he comes out. Boo when he loses. Think about what's happening in front of you, NOT the big picture. I suppose you could say nothing changes if you do that. But you aren't doing that. And nothing is still changing. Yeah I do cheer when he comes out and boo when he loses. This isn't about heel/face alignments, it's about a guy, well Ryder, who deserved more than he got. I booed Kane and Eve for what they did and cheered for Ryder when he got revenge on them on that Summer Smackdown. But then...nothing happend with him. Nobody thought he was going to be a main eventer, at least not me, but to sell as much merchandise as he's capable of and not being able to be what Kofi and Santino are (getting wins and being competent midcarders on Raw), is just baffaling. I don't think being a popular midcard face who wins against other midcard faces and occasionally challenges for a US/IC title on the main shows isn't too much to ask for. That's not really a big picture, just a hope that should be easy to accomplish. Zack Ryder got a whole lot more than some other guys did, though. Sure he was the third wheel, but being involved in a John Cena feud, a Kane re-masking angle, and an angle that was closing out Raw is a pretty big thing.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 28, 2013 21:19:34 GMT -5
Yeah I do cheer when he comes out and boo when he loses. This isn't about heel/face alignments, it's about a guy, well Ryder, who deserved more than he got. I booed Kane and Eve for what they did and cheered for Ryder when he got revenge on them on that Summer Smackdown. But then...nothing happend with him. Nobody thought he was going to be a main eventer, at least not me, but to sell as much merchandise as he's capable of and not being able to be what Kofi and Santino are (getting wins and being competent midcarders on Raw), is just baffaling. I don't think being a popular midcard face who wins against other midcard faces and occasionally challenges for a US/IC title on the main shows isn't too much to ask for. That's not really a big picture, just a hope that should be easy to accomplish. Zack Ryder got a whole lot more than some other guys did, though. Sure he was the third wheel, but being involved in a John Cena feud, a Kane re-masking angle, and an angle that was closing out Raw is a pretty big thing. Being a integral part of a smaller thing is probably better than an unnecessary part in a bigger thing.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 28, 2013 21:33:31 GMT -5
Yeah I do cheer when he comes out and boo when he loses. This isn't about heel/face alignments, it's about a guy, well Ryder, who deserved more than he got. I booed Kane and Eve for what they did and cheered for Ryder when he got revenge on them on that Summer Smackdown. But then...nothing happend with him. Nobody thought he was going to be a main eventer, at least not me, but to sell as much merchandise as he's capable of and not being able to be what Kofi and Santino are (getting wins and being competent midcarders on Raw), is just baffaling. I don't think being a popular midcard face who wins against other midcard faces and occasionally challenges for a US/IC title on the main shows isn't too much to ask for. That's not really a big picture, just a hope that should be easy to accomplish. Zack Ryder got a whole lot more than some other guys did, though. Sure he was the third wheel, but being involved in a John Cena feud, a Kane re-masking angle, and an angle that was closing out Raw is a pretty big thing. True but that was as far as he got and then he was pushed back down the card soon after. He was more over than almost anyone on the roster. He was more over than a lot of guys that they put way more effort and time into. Why didn't they capitalize on his hard work? I wish I knew the reason.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 28, 2013 22:31:39 GMT -5
Zack Ryder got a whole lot more than some other guys did, though. Sure he was the third wheel, but being involved in a John Cena feud, a Kane re-masking angle, and an angle that was closing out Raw is a pretty big thing. He was more over than almost anyone on the roster.I just don't remember that being the case. When was this? And since he was more over almost everyone else on the roster, which guys would you say he was not more over than?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Nov 28, 2013 22:33:55 GMT -5
He was more over than almost anyone on the roster. I just don't remember that being the case. When was this? And since he was more over almost everyone else on the roster, which guys would you say he was not more over than? They were chanting his name over The Rock.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 28, 2013 22:47:00 GMT -5
He was more over than almost anyone on the roster. I just don't remember that being the case. When was this? And since he was more over almost everyone else on the roster, which guys would you say he was not more over than? A couple years ago, 2011? when was in the US title picture. The only two faces that were more over than him at the time were Cena and Punk. Even now the guy has over a million twitter followers.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 28, 2013 23:09:51 GMT -5
I just don't remember that being the case. When was this? And since he was more over almost everyone else on the roster, which guys would you say he was not more over than? A couple years ago, 2011? when was in the US title picture. The only two faces that were more over than him at the time were Cena and Punk. Even now the guy has over a million twitter followers. I'm not sure who was face and who was heel at that time, but I remember Christian (after Edge's retirement) being over, John Morrison being way over, Air Boom, Daniel Bryan after winning MiTB (although he turned heel late in the year), Rey Mysterio before he got injured -- all being more over than Ryder. And that's just people that to best of my memory were faces.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Nov 28, 2013 23:13:29 GMT -5
Zack Ryder got a whole lot more than some other guys did, though. Sure he was the third wheel, but being involved in a John Cena feud, a Kane re-masking angle, and an angle that was closing out Raw is a pretty big thing. Being a integral part of a smaller thing is probably better than an unnecessary part in a bigger thing. there are other people who feel differently.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 28, 2013 23:24:26 GMT -5
A couple years ago, 2011? when was in the US title picture. The only two faces that were more over than him at the time were Cena and Punk. Even now the guy has over a million twitter followers. I'm not sure who was face and who was heel at that time, but I remember Christian (after Edge's retirement) being over, John Morrison being way over, Air Boom, Daniel Bryan after winning MiTB (although he turned heel late in the year), Rey Mysterio before he got injured -- all being more over than Ryder. And that's just people that to best of my memory were faces. Morrison was never that over. I wanted him to be but he wasn't. D-Bry was catching fire, but Mysterio and especially Air Boom were not as over as Ryder at that time. No way. Besides, those names you mentioned are exactly what we're talking about. It's not just Ryder, all of those guys (except Mysterio) have got the shaft in order to maintain the status quo. Morrison even got released because of some petty crap involving Melina.
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Post by Error on Nov 28, 2013 23:27:23 GMT -5
. Morrison even got released because of some petty crap involving Melina. No, his contract came up and he left. No release, nothing to do with Melina.
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