mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319 
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Post by mrjl on Dec 1, 2013 19:07:19 GMT -5
Considering Cornette spent 90% of his career as a comedic character, he really has no room to make that statement. funny character in serious storylines. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 19:08:57 GMT -5
What spoils wrestling are people caring about how good the matches are. I'd take emotion every day over a Meltzer classic. It's like judging a book on how nicely it's printed rather than how gripping the story is. I've never understood why people care about match quality or even what it means. If I buy into the storyline and the characters they can just slug it out for 10 minutes and I'll be entertained. If they go out there and have a afive-star classic, I won't give a toss if I don't care about the reason why. I find it a really bizarre way of judging things and I think it stems from a resentment that it isn't a real sport so the idea is you treat it like it is in order to try and salvage some internal credibility. Never understood how some people seek to suck all the storyline and emotion out of it and judge it by how many times someone did a series German suplexes. IMO if you can enjoy a match between two guys you don't know fighting for a reason you've not followed - you're doing it wrong. It's all about cheering the person you like and hoping the other guy gets his. Yet I know people genuinely treat it like figure skating. "Oh he did these moves, it's worth a 8/10 at least" Alien to me. Completely. You're the one "doing it wrong" by thinking you're doing it "right", or that there even is a right way. What do you gain from that? The dismissive nature of a post like that ensures that no one is actually going to learn anything, instead being put off by the condescending tone and lack of ability to see things from another perspective without unnecessary contempt. If you want people to listen to you and respect your views, try giving others the same courtesy. If you don't...well, keep it up. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 19:10:23 GMT -5
Considering Cornette spent 90% of his career as a comedic character, he really has no room to make that statement. Don't say that, next time he does YouShoot you'll end up in the d*ck bag, and then he'll spend 15 minutes explaining how he would kill you if he could get away with it. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 1, 2013 19:10:45 GMT -5
You can have a mixture of seriousness and humour. It's just that the humour needs to be subtle. Take a recent example when that guy from the Wyatt family handed the guest host a sheep mask. If they just left it at that, it would have been fine. But WWE in particular don't know when to stop. They had to add some Santino bullshit to the segment and it went on too long. Toilet humour rarely works either. How many times can we see shit being dropped onto people standing on the stage or the middle of the ring?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 1, 2013 19:40:40 GMT -5
False dichotomy between "serious" and "comedy." Irony is an important part of wrestling, and I'd argue it's a necessary part of an enjoyable wrestling product. But that doesn't at all imply comedy. And also, irony doesn't imply that people aren't trying to put on good matches. It's just got somewhat of a wink to it, even if all the performers are treating it with deadly seriousness.
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Post by Starshine on Dec 1, 2013 19:42:28 GMT -5
ROH is always serious.
Always.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 19:57:16 GMT -5
yeah serious sucks  |
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Post by machomuta on Dec 1, 2013 20:23:37 GMT -5
. If everything is a joke I don't see why I should care. Agreed. Comedy doesnt draw money. Just look at Chikara. They are not around anymore. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 20:32:07 GMT -5
. If everything is a joke I don't see why I should care. Agreed. Comedy doesnt draw money. Just look at Chikara. They are not around anymore. I didn't think drawing money was CHIKARA's problem. Even as someone who didn't follow CHIKARA all too much, it wasn't strictly comedy wrestling any more than ROH is strictly SERIOUSLY SERIOUS MCSERIOUSON ESQ. sure you had marching ants and time traveling, but you still had serious matches even revolving around that madness. Not to mention the show did bend over backwards to have you suspend that disbelief and follow their arcs, even to the point where it would lead to continuity lockout. Consistent internal logic goes a hell of a long way. |
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Dec 1, 2013 20:41:10 GMT -5
. If everything is a joke I don't see why I should care. Agreed. Comedy doesnt draw money. Just look at Chikara. They are not around anymore. That's......not why Chikara is gone. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 2, 2013 8:44:39 GMT -5
if you did follow ROH, you'd know that sentence is a load of crap That is why I said I didn't follow it, I've never claimed to follow it. So you don't follow ROH because it's too serious which you don't have any evidence for because you don't follow it? The guy you're replying to's sig is even an example of ROH not always being serious. |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 2, 2013 9:25:45 GMT -5
Funny alone doesn't draw money, nor does humourless 'real' workrate, workrate, workrate wrestling, you need some of both to make a compelling product. WCW managed to find that balance from 96-98 and it was red hot, it had guys who could do comedy and guys who could do workrate and their interactions were often priceless, see Jericho versus Malenko or Chavo and Eddie, they didn't make their opponents look like fools like Cornette seems to believe, they made them seem interesting and fun, people you wanted to see the face slap the taste from... Of course, that balance was thrown out the window when they hit the panic button because there was a renewed interest in the WWF and their insistence on plugging a stale main event scene through every match was turning people off, but that's WCW.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Dec 2, 2013 13:11:54 GMT -5
what happened to chikara? they no longer exist? and why happened that?
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Dec 2, 2013 14:13:42 GMT -5
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,179
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Dec 2, 2013 15:11:47 GMT -5
Also, I would think some of the complaints about ROH and it's seriousness would apply even more to EVOLVE. Say what you will about ROH, but it has some characters. EVOLVE is Gabe's puroresu fantasies taken to it's logical conclusion.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Dec 2, 2013 18:54:00 GMT -5
Seriousness is fine in wrestling so long as there's some undercurrent of campiness and flamboyance to it- the two keystones of the business, IMO.
Good examples of how to be "serious" in wrestling for me would be stuff like Austin ranting and raving about whipping ass while shaking his head back and forth, Cena screaming Come Get Some at the top of his lungs, or Hogan in his prime giving an impassioned promo that's still filled with brothers and jacks (or likewise Flair, only his are full of woos). Subdued, earthy approaches to performances only work if there's a real character there to justify it, like Jake Roberts or some of Foley's Cane Dewey stuff. Even Bret Hart, on average, was way more animated than your typical athlete during his promos.
Basically, I think personality is the cake while the athletic aspect is the icing. The difference between a good worker and a great pro wrestler is being able to act. Likewise with the approach to the show's presentation, going back to Foley again, it's very much a circus. Some fans are there for the in ring stuff, some like the feuds and angles, others (like me) mark for the nonsense. De-empathise any of them and you've screwed up.
Though I think universally speaking, it's always wiser to go bigger and crazier if you have the choice.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Dec 4, 2013 13:37:01 GMT -5
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 5, 2013 6:36:19 GMT -5
Here's the key thing about wrestling for me. You can be as goofy as you want or as crazy as you want but the thing is, these guys are still athletes and they still want to compete. They can compete in space in zero gravity for all I care as long as they have a reason to go to a company and want to beat each other up and succeed. If they want to succeed, the fans will watch and want them to succeed too. If you don't have that, then what's the point in watching? There'd be no character connection.
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BrianZane
Team Rocket
The Finest Fibers All
The Way From France
Host of Wrestling With Wregret
Posts: 972
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Post by BrianZane on Dec 5, 2013 9:37:18 GMT -5
I think seriousness in the product is fine. What I don't like is when fans take it too seriously. If someone they like gets depushed or jobs on TV you would think WWE or TNA insulted a dear family member.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 5, 2013 9:47:27 GMT -5
I think the bigger issue is people who take themselves too seriously. Serious angles are fine, but you have to remember that the idea is to entertain people. Jim Cornette was not well liked during his last run as booker for Ring of Honor. He didn't like or understand 3 of the company's most popular wrestlers (Cabana,Generico, Steen). Of course some of that is because he still has a very southern outlook on wrestling . My biggest issue with his time in ROH was that everybody got super serious and aggressive at the same time and it seemed like everybody also used some form of the Cutter during every match.
That's why I love CZW and PWG the most right now though. CZW will have a little of everything in a show and PWG just goes balls out to be entertaining. Not that ROH isn't entertaining (though I do feel that they've lost quite a bit of momentum that they had gained earlin in 2013).
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