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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Dec 5, 2013 20:11:56 GMT -5
Here's the key thing about wrestling for me. You can be as goofy as you want or as crazy as you want but the thing is, these guys are still athletes and they still want to compete. They can compete in space in zero gravity for all I care as long as they have a reason to go to a company and want to beat each other up and succeed. If they want to succeed, the fans will watch and want them to succeed too. If you don't have that, then what's the point in watching? There'd be no character connection. True, but I'd argue that while blood feuds and the wrestlers' desire to succeed are fine, very few outside of a niche crowd will be invested in the competiton unless the wrestler has a certain quality about them. That quality is Camp. "Funny" might not draw money, but Campiness never, ever fails. All the memorable stars, the ones that popped crowds, raised PPV buys and upped ratings, had at least some element of ridiculousness, outrageousness, and yes, even cartoonishness. Austin, Hogan, Rock, Cena, Flair, HHH, Foley, Warrior, Edge, HBK, Mysterio as a pint sized masked superhero, Bryan with his YESing, Undertaker, Punk a lot of the time, Savage, Jeff Hardy, all of those guys know how to be larger than life. Any yutz can show aggression and desire, but the ones that make connections with fans do something beyond that. And a wrestler doesn't even need to be the best on the mic or the wackiest guy in the room to have Camp. Bret Hart was no Rock, but he still understood the value of having a presence about him. There were clear differences between Bret the real guy and how The Hitman, cool badass excellence of execution in a loud pink outfit and goofy shades, carried himself. Orton and Jake Roberts aren't loudmouths and there's nothing comedic about them (at least not intentionally), but they know how to play great sociopaths. Lesnar often bumbles when he has to give a long winded promo, but not many big men can capture the monster aura like he can. The Shield are technically "serious", but it's a comic book villain seriousness. And that's good, because wrestling's a comic book come to life. But the Doug Furnas and Phil LaFon/McGillicutty kind of seriousness? No, bad. That never works. They don't have to be Santino out there, but there's got to be something to a performer that could make a child want to buy their action figure, or go as them for Halloween.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Dec 6, 2013 19:32:38 GMT -5
Cornette went a little more in depth about his views on comedy in wrestling (including his participation in it) during one of his Fanfest Q&As a few years ago. He said something like:
"I would say things insulting to the babyfaces, and I would be over the top and colorful with it. Now if I say that kind of stuff to her (pointing at lady in the front row) are you going to think it's funny (said to the man with her)? No, because you like her. So if I said stuff like that about the Rock n Roll Express, or Dusty Rhodes, or whoever....well, some of you perverts in the audience thought it was funny. Most of the fans just wanted to kick my ass for it."
"As far as the kind of stuff they do today, it's all so obviously scripted. Picture this: You're sitting in your living room and you look out the window. There's an old woman walking home with a bag of groceries. And maybe it's even better if she's fat, I don't know. But she slips on a patch of ice, the groceries go up in the air, she lands on her ass and the groceries hit her on the head. You might laugh, right? Now imagine that she's walking, sees the patch of ice, stops in front of it, looks around to make sure people are watching, deliberately steps on the ice, and throws the bag of groceries in the air. Are you gonna find that funny?"
In that regard, at least, I understand what he's saying and agree with him.
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Phil Parent
El Dandy
Your Favourite Teacher
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Phil Parent on Dec 6, 2013 21:29:25 GMT -5
The lack of heat and hate is what is ruining wrestling. I want to see limbs being broken, girlfriends disgustingly stolen, titles cared about... Do you guys remember when the Horsemen broke Dusty's leg? That was some mighty good wrestling. And it wasn't a match, the part you cared about.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Dec 6, 2013 22:06:50 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between characters who are funny and funny characters. Stone Cold Steve Austin was a character who was funny. But when it came time to get serious and kick ass, he did. Santino Marella is a funny character. He could get screwed over by a Vince McMahon-esque mega heel and still come out the next night by speedwalking to the ring and he's still do his bit with the Cobra. That's not really compelling from a storytelling point-of-view. However, Santino in a three minute comedy match works. So it really depends on the context.
Furthermore, it depends on the show as a whole. I remember last year when John Laurinaitis fired the Big Show in the middle of the ring, which as a television segment ended with the Big Show crying. The next segment was Brodus Clay and the Funkadactyls coming out like nothing dramatic or serious had just happened which everyone in the arena and at home watching saw. You can't have serious segment after serious segment after serious segment. And the inverse is true with funny segments. You need to have segments that gradually change into something else between those two extremes, otherwise it's really jarring to the viewer and pulls them out of the illusion of the show.
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Dec 10, 2013 7:05:26 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between characters who are funny and funny characters. Stone Cold Steve Austin was a character who was funny. But when it came time to get serious and kick ass, he did. Santino Marella is a funny character. He could get screwed over by a Vince McMahon-esque mega heel and still come out the next night by speedwalking to the ring and he's still do his bit with the Cobra. That's not really compelling from a storytelling point-of-view. However, Santino in a three minute comedy match works. So it really depends on the context. Absolutely hit the nail on Stone Cold. A night that particularly sticks out in my mind during this discussion was the "Bang 3:16" incident. I may be remembering this a little bit wrong, but the general idea is still there. Austin had been screwed over by Vince for weeks and was acting like he had finally hit his breaking point. The cameras were following him since the time he arrived at the building and he looked even more pissed off than his usual self. Something big was going to happen. Then we seen him pull the gun and drag McMahon down to the ring to do the deed. All played with the utmost seriousness. Vince's acting may be a bit over-the-top, but have you ever had a mortal enemy point a gun at your head? Think about it for a bit. The emotions from Vince and Austin felt real that night. Even 16 year old me was wondering if this was really supposed to be happening. Then, when the audience in the arena and the people at home are on the edge of their seats or turning their heads away in fear, "pop!" Vince's eyes are pouring and his pants are soaked, a natural reaction for his type of character(and most likely a lot of us). Austin laughs, but gives McMahon a stern warning. The hatred between the two is still there and believable. Sure we all had a laugh, but the next week the feud was still on. Vince was as vindictive as he had been to that point. The audience was still buying tickets and PPVs. Everything was good. A small bit of comedy in a red hot blood feud, played off with real emotions, and didn't hurt it one bit. It was good for the fans to have that small release of laughter in such an intense rivalry. It's really comparable to having a small joke in a horror movie, it lets the audience relax for a second before hitting them with something gruesome. Now let's contrast this to something like Russo booking of WCW. The "shoot" feuds, Viagra on a pole, La Parka's promos, 3 Count, the Powers That Be, etc. Now, personally, I loved this stuff and it made WCW a can't miss show for me at the time. Everything had been turned on it's ear. The whole thing was a car wreck. The more comedic aspects of the show had me hooked. WCW was going to have a house show in Evansville(closest city to my hometown) at the time. A friend and I had went to see previous WWF shows and an ECW show there, but passed on the opportunity to watch WCW live. We wouldn't gather for PPVs at friends houses like we did for WWF. Why? No real emotional connection to make us feel like this was something to see. The goofiness made it seem like the possibility of seeing a good match was highly unlikely. No matter how good the Billy Kidman/Shane Douglas match might have had the possibility of being, they were still fighting to reach a bottle of Viagra on a pole. People could buy the fact that Goldberg was a godless killing machine out to destroy the NWO, they weren't going to pay money to see a match that was being pushed to the public that he might "go off script" or "not do the job." They played the product like it was all a complete and total joke, and the fans started tuning out and not wasting there money on it. People weren't feeling sympathetic for the faces, they were either laughing or just completely disgusted at what their favorite wrestling show had become.
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efarns
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,273
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Post by efarns on Dec 10, 2013 8:35:28 GMT -5
Wrestling written as a comedy does not work. Wrestling written as drama with comedic elements included can work very well. Someone who makes you laugh will draw money as a babyface because you like them. "Cool" "Heels" who make you laugh don't work, because you sympathize with them more than with a serious babyface.
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