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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 21:34:36 GMT -5
I think you're totally off on Savage. Hogan was still as over as he ever was and the heel turn was a slow burn that made perfect sense. He had always been a heel, so for him to revert back to the paranoid, possessive psycho was still true to the character. The mega powers saga is the most perfect storyline WWE ever did imo. Agreed. The WWF planned things extremely carefully back then. They likely knew where they were going with the angle a year before the blow-off (maybe longer). Savage's paranoia and jealousy started to creep in as early as Summerslam 1988 with a 5 second dirty look (a full 7-8 months before WM 5). This was an example of a slow burn and extremely well written angle. No way was it improvising just to appease Hogan. As far as the OP mentioning that Slaughter killed a Warrior heel turn, that's even more ridiculous. Warrior was set to feud with Savage months before the Slaughter title change even happened. Again, don't use today's wrestling format and try to relate it to the past. Vince actually put thought and long-term planning into the angles back then. Not so much anymore (due to the TV landscape and added PPV's).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 21:36:29 GMT -5
Ryback by far.
Ryback was as hot as he's ever going to get. He was an extremely over babyface. The crowd was choosing him over Cena and they sacrificed him for a boost to Cena. What happened after the feud? Ryback went down the ladder. He went from wrestling Cena to upper midcarders and now he's teaming with Axel for no reason. His stock has dropped. At least with the others we can see how it can pan out. Punk rose from Rock/Cena feuds to face Taker, came back and went into the Heyman feud and he's basically been doing amazing with Shield. Punk is solidified and because of his position he will never drop a certain level. Upper midcard is the lowest he will ever get and he turns every feud into great work.
Bryan? If he has really turned heel here then I'll say it's the same for him. FAN might whine and be upset at Bryan's position but from what we've seen Bryan's at the same level Punk is in regards to being "protected". Bryan turned the Miz feud into greatness, went on to turn his WHC era to greatness, went on to enjoy the Team Hell No era to greatness, he's over with the fans and as we've seen last night the Wyatt feud is as hot as it's ever been. Sure the WWE might annoy many people but what we can see is the fact that Bryan's at a great level. He turns anything he's in into magic and that's something more people need to accept. He's never going to go below upper midcard now. He's like Punk in that regard.
Ryback though? His stock has dropped. He will never be at the level he used to be. What's worse? We had something with Bullyback. He had a spark in those promos but the WWE didn't capitalize on it. They didn't let Ryback do more and they dropped the ball. Because of that he's nothing.
You can't compare them.
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Post by The Masked Heel WAS WRONG on Dec 31, 2013 21:57:20 GMT -5
Ryback. He got an overbearing NJ crowd that was pretty much crapping on every non-babyface on the roster that night to chant very loudly "Feed Me More" before he even attack Cena, then cheered even louder when he did.
They didn't have to turn him heel, they could have just done the BMF face routine with Ryback just say he wanted the title and Cena is the person who has it. They could have even thrown Henry into the feud since he did beat Ryback at Wrestlemania and Cena couldn't beat Henry by pin or submission on Raw.
Ryback would have been a perfect person to hold the World Title as a babyface
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Dec 31, 2013 22:01:32 GMT -5
Serious question to the OP (tekkenguy), and please don't take offense, but it seems like you're really going out of your way to play into stereotypical "IWC" beliefs with a lot of the polls you're making. Do you truly believe this angle is an attempt to keep Cena at the top of the mountain? Does anyone? Ryback's turn or DB's new one? If so, yeah, both of them are.
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Post by Grand Papillon "The Banker" on Dec 31, 2013 22:22:41 GMT -5
Bryan's "turn" probably is more of the HBK has to do the bidding of JBL because he is poor, defeated and needs money or the Big Show doing whatever the Authority says because he is poor, defeated and needs money...
I am sure he will do some heelish things in a conflicted manner while the audience chants "No!" only to have his heroic moment where he screws the Wyatts for a big pop. Hell, that moment could very well be in the Rumble where Bryan refuses to eliminate himself to help Bray Wyatt or something like that.
When Ryback turned heel, he attacked Cena. When Punk turned, he attacked The Rock. I can't see the WWE being stupid enough to turn Bryan heel in such a passive way if they are stupid enough to do so at all
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 31, 2013 22:57:37 GMT -5
The popular answer is the correct one for just how badly they killed that character and his crowd reactions.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 31, 2013 22:59:29 GMT -5
I think you're totally off on Savage. Hogan was still as over as he ever was and the heel turn was a slow burn that made perfect sense. He had always been a heel, so for him to revert back to the paranoid, possessive psycho was still true to the character. The mega powers saga is the most perfect storyline WWE ever did imo. Absolutely. Though re-watching the angle as an adult, even as a heel, Randy was RIGHT. Pains me as a Hulkamaniac to say, but Mach was correct even as th bad guy.
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Post by Cvslfc123 on Dec 31, 2013 23:07:01 GMT -5
Ryback's turn was stupid, when he Meat hooked John Cena, it seemed like he was just making a statement that he wanted the WWE Championship because he still did the whole "Feed Me More" thing afterwards. I remember watching the following week when he did that obviously edited "Super Cena" taped promo, thinking "My God they have turned Ryback heel just to feud with Cena"
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 1, 2014 5:45:35 GMT -5
Del Rio this year, it worked well but it really came outta nowhere and seemed like they only did it because he wasn't working as a face. And it seemed like his face turn happened because he wasn't working as a heel. Del Rio is the Billy Gunn of the current era.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 1, 2014 5:56:15 GMT -5
Del Rio this year, it worked well but it really came outta nowhere and seemed like they only did it because he wasn't working as a face. Del Rio was collateral damage from Ziggler's concussion. The fans just got really sympathetic for Dolph after he suffered that injury and Del Rio ended up becoming the heel by default.
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on Jan 1, 2014 6:36:49 GMT -5
out of your options the only one is Ryback because the others are not desperate the slightest. Punk made perfect sense, he was champion but overshadowed by Rock and Cena, that's a damn good reason to turn. Heck some of the greatest heel turns in the history were caused by such jealousy: Macho, André, Bret, etc...
Plus on a non kayfabe note, Punk was sucking as face. And Byan is not even a heel to me.
But the Ryback thing is one of the worst exemple of bad booking that ever was in the recent history to me. They destroyed him because of the Rock and Cena. He should have won the title from Punk but couldn't because Rock wanted the title 2 months later. Then clearly, he was fed to Cena, just to keep him busy for a couple of months. What a shame. No wonder the guy is careless in the ring after that. I'm not saying he would have been the next Hogan, but at least a Batista like character if booked right.
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Post by JTG Fan on Jan 1, 2014 7:07:58 GMT -5
I actually think the Ryback turn was a decent idea. He was very over as a face, but it was becoming pretty clear WWE wasn't going to let him be the top babyface with Cena still on top and Orton still a babyface with Sheamus right behind them. The bigger issue with the turn was that turning him in that fashion after months of chasing the WWE Title and coming up short meant that he HAD to win it now, or else he would have absolutely nowhere else to go. And like The Overrated "R" Superstar said, they just instead fed him to Cena.
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Post by g1megatronfan on Jan 1, 2014 9:28:33 GMT -5
I'm going to say Bryan. I think WWE seen him as the biggest threat to their beloved stooge's manufactured and forced status of being the #1 babyface while Bryan was chosen by the crowds. The fans chose Bryan and WWE doesn't like it when people make up their own minds of who and what they like. Afterall...they know what we want more than we do or so that's their mindset. This just screams desperation on so many levels. I think this is the result of the fans crapping all over Triple H's little ceremony a few weeks ago. He looked like he was going to die out there.
They did this just to stick it to the fans. They don't want anyone other than Cena to be the top babyface. No matter how old and boring his act is. That's WWE though. They tell you what to like and you better do it or else.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jan 1, 2014 12:08:15 GMT -5
CM Punk is the uncontested king of "forced heel turn that the fans didn't accept and got more desperate as it went on". the initial turn was... confusing (we were supposed to buy that he was a heel because he fought back against a guy who'd insulted him for no reason earlier that night), and then when WWE threw subtlety out the window 2 weeks later the fans started cheering for him out of spite, even when he started crossing into Bossman territory.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jan 1, 2014 12:11:56 GMT -5
Can I really say none of the above? Yes the turns have been stupid, but I don't think they're the result of a conspiracy to keep Cena at the top. Punk was the victim of Rock/Cena main event already being set in stone. Logically, Cena/Punk should've been the match to headline Wrestlemania, but they ended up turning him heel so that they could put the title on Rock. Ryback's turn is a cautionary tale on why it's stupid the keep the title on the same person so often. That, and although people probably don't like to hear this, CM Punk and The Shield ultimately did more to bury Ryback than Cena ever did. People complain about Bryan never getting one over on the Authority, but Ryback ended up looking like a chump and he never got his payback. I'll agree to that. by the time Cena got to Ryback the guy's heat was already gone from the constant jobbing to The Shield, Punk and Mark Henry of all people. Cena was just the last nail in the coffin, and it was only put there because the coffin was already in the grave hole and somebody noticed a nail was missing.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Jan 1, 2014 13:30:49 GMT -5
Has to be Ryback. Ruining your hottest babyface in ages just for a two months feud with Cena was a terrible mistake. The Savage turn was brilliantly done though. If you're looking for a silly heel turn in order to keep Hogan face then Sid Justice is your man!
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Jan 1, 2014 13:32:53 GMT -5
Savage's turn wasn't desperate at all, it's inclusion is ridiculous.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Jan 1, 2014 15:12:53 GMT -5
I think you're totally off on Savage. Hogan was still as over as he ever was and the heel turn was a slow burn that made perfect sense. He had always been a heel, so for him to revert back to the paranoid, possessive psycho was still true to the character. The mega powers saga is the most perfect storyline WWE ever did imo. Absolutely. Though re-watching the angle as an adult, even as a heel, Randy was RIGHT. Pains me as a Hulkamaniac to say, but Mach was correct even as th bad guy. Maybe about wanting the belt but I don't think he was lusting after Liz. That's one of the reasons it was great. You could clearly understand things from the heel's perspective, even if you didn't agree with them.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jan 1, 2014 15:33:23 GMT -5
I think asskicking babyface Ryback versus controversial babyface John Cena, who after beating the Rock becomes a bit of an arrogant dickhead, would have been far more interesting that whatever the hell we ended up getting.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 2, 2014 0:38:46 GMT -5
Why did they even turn Ryback heel anyway? As we saw with Bryan vs. Cena last year, they could've easily had both Ryback and Cena still faces while feuding for the title.
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