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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 8, 2014 6:02:15 GMT -5
I really don't like this film at all. It just felt like typical Burton gothic type stuff where Batman was largely secondary in his own movie. I think you could've put almost anyone in the role of Batman there and it wouldn't have mattered. It's not that it's a bad film, I just don't really consider it to be a Batman film at all. I liked the first one, but not this one at all. My view is that Tim Burton was the perfect director for a Batman movie, since the character is best depicted as dark and brooding anyway. If anything, Batman is least important in the Nolan movies. The Dark Knight in particular could have simply been a heist/crime movie without any comic book elements and it wouldn't have changed significantly. Perfect because he knows gothic, terrible because he's never read a f***ing comic in his life. In Batman Returns, Batman straight up murders guys and pays no mind to it whatsoever. I am all for adapting a character, don't get me wrong, but 1. to adapt something I think you need to know more than absolute dick about it 2. there's adaptation and then stripping out like the core principles of a character. You have a point about The Dark Knight, I've made the same point before (my vote for the greatest superhero movie ever is Avengers) but I just enjoy it a lot more generally and so I care less about Batman being quite background in his own story.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Aug 9, 2014 19:06:36 GMT -5
The story about the film's production was that Burton was reluctant about making a sequel to B89, but the producers said, "Why not make it a Tim Burton movie?" Anyway, how you think Sean young wold turn out as Catwoman?
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 9, 2014 20:26:04 GMT -5
My view is that Tim Burton was the perfect director for a Batman movie, since the character is best depicted as dark and brooding anyway. If anything, Batman is least important in the Nolan movies. The Dark Knight in particular could have simply been a heist/crime movie without any comic book elements and it wouldn't have changed significantly. Perfect because he knows gothic, terrible because he's never read a f***ing comic in his life. In Batman Returns, Batman straight up murders guys and pays no mind to it whatsoever. Was anyone really mourning when Mr Bomb-Strapped-To-Him got killed?
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andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
Posts: 106,135
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Post by andrew8798 on Aug 9, 2014 20:29:40 GMT -5
Has not held up at all
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 10, 2014 3:50:22 GMT -5
Perfect because he knows gothic, terrible because he's never read a f***ing comic in his life. In Batman Returns, Batman straight up murders guys and pays no mind to it whatsoever. Was anyone really mourning when Mr Bomb-Strapped-To-Him got killed? That's really not the point. Who would mourn the Joker other than Harley? Batman doesn't kill.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 11:16:01 GMT -5
It's even worse than Batman and Robin.
Burton is a hack
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 10, 2014 17:33:03 GMT -5
Was anyone really mourning when Mr Bomb-Strapped-To-Him got killed? That's really not the point. Who would mourn the Joker other than Harley? Batman doesn't kill. He doesn't kill in the sadistic way that a villain would, but kills to protect Gothamites from people who are clearly threats to other people's lives. He's justified.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Aug 10, 2014 22:32:08 GMT -5
That's really not the point. Who would mourn the Joker other than Harley? Batman doesn't kill. He doesn't kill in the sadistic way that a villain would, but kills to protect Gothamites from people who are clearly threats to other people's lives. He's justified. As I mentioned previously, Burton's Batman was based on the Golden Age Batman, in which he uses lethal force without hesitation, even after Robin joined. I don't hear anyone complaining when, at the end of The Dark Knight Rises, Batman shot down a truck (driven by Miranda) carrying a nuke, a reference to Batman Vol. 1, issue 1, when he shot down a truck, with Batman saying, "As much as I hate to take human life, I'm afraid this time it's necessary!"
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 11, 2014 2:48:14 GMT -5
That's really not the point. Who would mourn the Joker other than Harley? Batman doesn't kill. He doesn't kill in the sadistic way that a villain would, but kills to protect Gothamites from people who are clearly threats to other people's lives. He's justified. Again, that wasn't my point. It was never about logic. A common argument even in the DCU is 'if you just killed the Joker you'd save a shitload more lilves.' Sadism doesn't factor into it. Modern Batman just don't do the killin'. Right, I didn't see that post, so that makes a bit more sense - but I still don't like the film, it still doesn't seem like a Batman film to me at all. As for Dark Knight Rises, that was just one of the things that pissed me off about it, and there are too many to mention.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Aug 11, 2014 12:40:00 GMT -5
He doesn't kill in the sadistic way that a villain would, but kills to protect Gothamites from people who are clearly threats to other people's lives. He's justified. Again, that wasn't my point. It was never about logic. A common argument even in the DCU is 'if you just killed the Joker you'd save a shitload more lilves.' Sadism doesn't factor into it. Modern Batman just don't do the killin'. Right, I didn't see that post, so that makes a bit more sense - but I still don't like the film, it still doesn't seem like a Batman film to me at all. As for Dark Knight Rises, that was just one of the things that pissed me off about it, and there are too many to mention. Or what about Batman Begins, when Batman told Ra's Al Ghul on a subway car that's about to crash: "I won't kill you, but I won't save you either", and allowed him to die.
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,910
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Post by hassanchop on Aug 11, 2014 14:10:52 GMT -5
No matter how you feel about Film Brain or Sage, I'm in agreement with them, it's not a good film. It's interesting but not great.
And I really agree with them about the Penguin's character, badly characterization, not sure what Burton wants us to do if we should cheer or mourn for his downfall. The only good thing to come out of it was the game made by Konami.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 11, 2014 14:36:05 GMT -5
Again, that wasn't my point. It was never about logic. A common argument even in the DCU is 'if you just killed the Joker you'd save a shitload more lilves.' Sadism doesn't factor into it. Modern Batman just don't do the killin'. Right, I didn't see that post, so that makes a bit more sense - but I still don't like the film, it still doesn't seem like a Batman film to me at all. As for Dark Knight Rises, that was just one of the things that pissed me off about it, and there are too many to mention. Or what about Batman Begins, when Batman told Ra's Al Ghul on a subway car that's about to crash: "I won't kill you, but I won't save you either", and allowed him to die. What point are you trying to prove here? I also didn't like that film at all, either. I love The Dark Knight, and that thing is f***ing riddled with flaws - I just don't consider any of its particular flaws to be sacrificing any of Batman's core values. But even if it was, I actually like the rest of the film anyway, which I can't say about Returns, which aside from featuring Batman killing people while barely paying attention to it: - Has a really shitty way of introducing Batman to the story, especially as compared to the previous film - Has Catwoman become Catwoman with absolutely zero explanation as to what the f*** happened - Has Walken as Shreck or whatever his name is, a completely unnecessary third villain in a film already starring two of Batman's (let's be honest) insanely overpopulated rogues gallery (at least most of the random hoods and characters in the Nolanverse are named characters from the comics) - Batman feels like a bit player in his own story (again could be levelled at Dark Knight in fairness) - The action isn't particularly inspiring - The film feels profoundly small scale, including the climax, even the outdoor scenes screaming 'studio,' again Gotham in the first Batman felt like a monolithic city despite largely only being seen at night I could go on. I just hated that f***ing film, and even if Batman had spent the whole film nonlethally hanging guys up by their ankles or every frame had 'Bob Kane and Bill Finger' written in the corner I'd still have hated it. What I have learned about myself is that if I like a film overall I will forgive it for things that I would not forgive a film I disliked overall. Rarely will the nitpicks matter in a film that I think f***ing rules, such as The Dark Knight or Avengers. In a film I already didn't much care for like Batman Returns, I will find legions of holes in it. I find shitloads of holes in The Dark Knight too, but I still loved it.
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