FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,428
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 27, 2014 18:28:03 GMT -5
Right now you're actually saying that women have to cover up or accept that you're going to ogle their breasts because you have no self control or decency. Lovely. No, I said I'll look at whatever the f*** I want. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect everyone else to avoid looking at you because YOU dressed inappropriately. It's like me wearing a speedo and expecting nobody to look at my banana hammock. Looking doesn't = ogling either. Like, does anyone literally just sit there and blatantly stare at people? No, we do that shit on the sly. Again, they're my eyes and I will point them in whatever direction I choose to. You don't want me to see you? Then go somewhere else. It's a pretty simple concept that somehow gets lost with this whole white knight stuff. What's 'inappropriate' by your standards though? You mentioned cleavage as something that you apparently can't stop yourself from looking at. Now, my girlfriend has large breasts. Unless she wears baggy formless clothes, they're going to be prominent. Some of her tops that are the most comfortable on her do *gasp* display cleavage. It's not to get 'attention' from skeevy guys who find it impossible to look at a person's face. At that point, it pretty much becomes the situation that she can't go out without being obligated to put up with creepers. How is that fair? Your 'logic' here is the same kind of stuff you hear from the people who say 'she was wearing too little clothing, she was asking for it'. You're unwilling to change your own behaviour, so you blame women instead. Is that really the kind of argument you want to present?
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 27, 2014 18:35:28 GMT -5
Ha, I was just directed to an earlier post where guys like me were "called out" for the way I post in threads like these.
Ah well. Know what, Jackson? We have a board here (and a very good main site, too...seriously, click the links on the front page and check it out) that's meant to be all-inclusive. That means men, women, black, white, trans or cis, whatever the hell somebody might be.
Threads like this (not singling agent out here; I don't think you made this thread with bad intentions), the way they tend to go? It's the kind of shit that drives female would-be posters away.
This doesn't mean we're not allowed to debate, discuss, or bring up potentially touchy topics that pertain to some of these topics; not at all, I'd actually love it if we could do it with regularity without risk of things getting locked due to over-heated back and forth post-shouting. It DOES mean that posters should be expected to be willing to actually listen when discussing peoples, groups, or genders that they might not have first-hand experience, you know, living as. Asking questions is fine, discussion is fine; strawman arguments and what have you aren't.
I don't think there's a man here (or woman, for that matter) who'll say that men should never look at an attractive woman...or visa versa, for that matter. It's human nature, perfectly normal behavior. Hell, a big part of looking at this from a feminist perspective is to say that a woman should have the freedom to dress in a way that she knows will draw male attention, just without the added creepy factor of guys harassing her over her outfit. (Non-sequitor, but it's what makes me laugh about guys who say "I have no problems with gay guys, but they'd better not ever hit on me, I'll go at them", who then will turn around and justify leering or catcalling at women in public.)
But when we discuss these issues, it'd be nice to see people offer opinions while adding the caveat "Hey, I'm not a [woman/minority/person suffering from mental illness/etc.], but I'm curious about [whatever issue]", which is a much, much more respectful way to go about it.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 61,896
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Aug 27, 2014 18:36:01 GMT -5
Honestly who cares what a person wears, let them be its their life and their choices we can't dictate how they dress or behave just let them be them and you be you
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Aug 27, 2014 18:43:43 GMT -5
Kinda off topic, but whenever I read "CIS", I still think of "Confederacy of Independent Systems." Then I wonder why people are getting annoyed at battle droids.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Aug 27, 2014 19:40:58 GMT -5
Ok, I should clarify. "The right" to me, means legally. I have the right to stare at you but it's still creepy. You also have the right to curse me out for it. You don't have the right to hit me for it though, ya dig? I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable so I would never stare at them. That's me. At the same time, if there are really that many creepy staring guys out there, and you know this, there's only one way to prevent it. Sure, you can talk about how annoying it is and curse out every guy that makes you feel uncomfortable, but that isn't a solution at all. Plenty of women dress modestly in all weather, it's not like you can't be comfortable and have your boobs covered at the same time. I do it all the time! When you have to start defending your legal right to be a creep, you've already lost the argument. And yeah, there's only one way to prevent creepy staring guys. Educate men about how shirking personal responsibility for their behavior is not masculine or natural, but pathetic and dangerous. Oh wait, that's not what you were talking about? Then how can you explain the stares people get when they're dressed modestly? How can you explain the man who stuck his hand up my knee-length skirt to grope my ass? Can you make that my fault? No? Then sit down and listen before you speak. Your argument would strip all personal responsibility from adults who know how not to be creeps, but choose to be creeps because they're bigger and stronger and know it won't get their nose broken. That's ugly. Don't be a creep. It's easy. It stops people from feeling threatened and scared when you're around. Unless you're a psycho, that should be reason enough to avoid doing it. ETA: I know you say you don't do this. But by excusing the people who do, justifying it as something they can't prevent, you're enabling them to continue doing it. That is JUST as messed up as doing it yourself, because by saying that you don't do it, you're undercutting the argument that they can't prevent themselves from doing it. You just think they shouldn't be criticized for it even IF they consciously choose to do it to be intimidating and threatening to others. Is letting go of even a small smidgen of male power so inconceivable that you'd insist that something that is manifestly and obviously not the woman's fault should be MADE her fault to excuse the men? Hold on, I thought that we were talking about women getting unwanted looks for what they wear. You're talking about situations where there is actually a victim. In no way does having a person that you think is creepy stare at you because they think you're sexy make you a victim. It makes you attractive, and it's something that you'll have to deal with. I certainly don't think groping or cat calling or harassing is acceptable behavior, and I'm really sorry that anything like that has ever happened to you. Unfortunately, I don't think you can educate that kind of stuff away. Good luck trying though. May I ask what that "small smidgen of male power" you refer to us letting go of is? I'm not attempting to explain why some people act like creeps. I have no idea why some dude stuck his hand up your skirt, but he sounds like a real dip-shit. I have fought with dudes over stuff like that before. I'm simply saying, don't tell me where to look. Just like it's rude for a guy to harass a girl, it's rude for a girl to call a guy out on glancing at their boobs. It's human nature, for f***'s sake I've glanced at my grandmother's chest before. I instantly regretted it but it happened. If you assume that every guy that looks at you is thinking dirty thoughts, you're probably wrong. No, I said I'll look at whatever the f*** I want. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect everyone else to avoid looking at you because YOU dressed inappropriately. It's like me wearing a speedo and expecting nobody to look at my banana hammock. Looking doesn't = ogling either. Like, does anyone literally just sit there and blatantly stare at people? No, we do that shit on the sly. Again, they're my eyes and I will point them in whatever direction I choose to. You don't want me to see you? Then go somewhere else. It's a pretty simple concept that somehow gets lost with this whole white knight stuff. What's 'inappropriate' by your standards though? You mentioned cleavage as something that you apparently can't stop yourself from looking at. Now, my girlfriend has large breasts. Unless she wears baggy formless clothes, they're going to be prominent. Some of her tops that are the most comfortable on her do *gasp* display cleavage. It's not to get 'attention' from skeevy guys who find it impossible to look at a person's face. At that point, it pretty much becomes the situation that she can't go out without being obligated to put up with creepers. How is that fair? Your 'logic' here is the same kind of stuff you hear from the people who say 'she was wearing too little clothing, she was asking for it'. You're unwilling to change your own behaviour, so you blame women instead. Is that really the kind of argument you want to present? Excluding children, I guess "dressing inappropriately" would be like what the OP was talking about. Nothing against big women at all, but I don't want to see them walking about in half shirts. I mean, I'm not gonna start a thread complaining about it, but I would definitely look away after the first glance. Look, I understand that some chicks can't cover their boobs very well even if they tried. I used to date a girl whose bra size was in the H's. It caused her a lot of unwanted attention and it's not fair but like...it's also one of the reasons she got MY attention. If you're dressed like this And this guy looks at you like this Does it mean he wants to do filthy things to you? Maybe he just believes in love at first site. Maybe you're just projecting your own history with men onto this random asshole. Is that fair?
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Aug 27, 2014 19:48:23 GMT -5
When you have to start defending your legal right to be a creep, you've already lost the argument. And yeah, there's only one way to prevent creepy staring guys. Educate men about how shirking personal responsibility for their behavior is not masculine or natural, but pathetic and dangerous. Oh wait, that's not what you were talking about? Then how can you explain the stares people get when they're dressed modestly? How can you explain the man who stuck his hand up my knee-length skirt to grope my ass? Can you make that my fault? No? Then sit down and listen before you speak. Your argument would strip all personal responsibility from adults who know how not to be creeps, but choose to be creeps because they're bigger and stronger and know it won't get their nose broken. That's ugly. Don't be a creep. It's easy. It stops people from feeling threatened and scared when you're around. Unless you're a psycho, that should be reason enough to avoid doing it. ETA: I know you say you don't do this. But by excusing the people who do, justifying it as something they can't prevent, you're enabling them to continue doing it. That is JUST as messed up as doing it yourself, because by saying that you don't do it, you're undercutting the argument that they can't prevent themselves from doing it. You just think they shouldn't be criticized for it even IF they consciously choose to do it to be intimidating and threatening to others. Is letting go of even a small smidgen of male power so inconceivable that you'd insist that something that is manifestly and obviously not the woman's fault should be MADE her fault to excuse the men? Hold on, I thought that we were talking about women getting unwanted looks for what they wear. You're talking about situations where there is actually a victim. In no way does having a person that you think is creepy stare at you because they think you're sexy make you a victim. It makes you attractive, and it's something that you'll have to deal with. I certainly don't think groping or cat calling or harassing is acceptable behavior, and I'm really sorry that anything like that has ever happened to you. Unfortunately, I don't think you can educate that kind of stuff away. Good luck trying though. May I ask what that "small smidgen of male power" you refer to us letting go of is? I'm not attempting to explain why some people act like creeps. I have no idea why some dude stuck his hand up your skirt, but he sounds like a real dip-shit. I have fought with dudes over stuff like that before. I'm simply saying, don't tell me where to look. Just like it's rude for a guy to harass a girl, it's rude for a girl to call a guy out on glancing at their boobs. It's human nature, for f***'s sake I've glanced at my grandmother's chest before. I instantly regretted it but it happened. If you assume that every guy that looks at you is thinking dirty thoughts, you're probably wrong. What's 'inappropriate' by your standards though? You mentioned cleavage as something that you apparently can't stop yourself from looking at. Now, my girlfriend has large breasts. Unless she wears baggy formless clothes, they're going to be prominent. Some of her tops that are the most comfortable on her do *gasp* display cleavage. It's not to get 'attention' from skeevy guys who find it impossible to look at a person's face. At that point, it pretty much becomes the situation that she can't go out without being obligated to put up with creepers. How is that fair? Your 'logic' here is the same kind of stuff you hear from the people who say 'she was wearing too little clothing, she was asking for it'. You're unwilling to change your own behaviour, so you blame women instead. Is that really the kind of argument you want to present? Excluding children, I guess "dressing inappropriately" would be like what the OP was talking about. Nothing against big women at all, but I don't want to see them walking about in half shirts. I mean, I'm not gonna start a thread complaining about it, but I would definitely look away after the first glance. Look, I understand that some chicks can't cover their boobs very well even if they tried. I used to date a girl whose bra size was in the H's. It caused her a lot of unwanted attention and it's not fair but like...it's also one of the reasons she got MY attention. If you're dressed like this And this guy looks at you like this Does it mean he wants to do filthy things to you? Maybe he just believes in love at first site. Maybe you're just projecting your own history with men onto this random asshole. Is that fair?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 19:52:22 GMT -5
That guy looks like Jim Breuer.
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Post by xCompackx on Aug 27, 2014 19:58:21 GMT -5
When you have to start defending your legal right to be a creep, you've already lost the argument. And yeah, there's only one way to prevent creepy staring guys. Educate men about how shirking personal responsibility for their behavior is not masculine or natural, but pathetic and dangerous. Oh wait, that's not what you were talking about? Then how can you explain the stares people get when they're dressed modestly? How can you explain the man who stuck his hand up my knee-length skirt to grope my ass? Can you make that my fault? No? Then sit down and listen before you speak. Your argument would strip all personal responsibility from adults who know how not to be creeps, but choose to be creeps because they're bigger and stronger and know it won't get their nose broken. That's ugly. Don't be a creep. It's easy. It stops people from feeling threatened and scared when you're around. Unless you're a psycho, that should be reason enough to avoid doing it. ETA: I know you say you don't do this. But by excusing the people who do, justifying it as something they can't prevent, you're enabling them to continue doing it. That is JUST as messed up as doing it yourself, because by saying that you don't do it, you're undercutting the argument that they can't prevent themselves from doing it. You just think they shouldn't be criticized for it even IF they consciously choose to do it to be intimidating and threatening to others. Is letting go of even a small smidgen of male power so inconceivable that you'd insist that something that is manifestly and obviously not the woman's fault should be MADE her fault to excuse the men? Hold on, I thought that we were talking about women getting unwanted looks for what they wear. You're talking about situations where there is actually a victim. In no way does having a person that you think is creepy stare at you because they think you're sexy make you a victim. It makes you attractive, and it's something that you'll have to deal with. I certainly don't think groping or cat calling or harassing is acceptable behavior, and I'm really sorry that anything like that has ever happened to you. Unfortunately, I don't think you can educate that kind of stuff away. Good luck trying though. May I ask what that "small smidgen of male power" you refer to us letting go of is? I'm not attempting to explain why some people act like creeps. I have no idea why some dude stuck his hand up your skirt, but he sounds like a real dip-shit. I have fought with dudes over stuff like that before. I'm simply saying, don't tell me where to look. Just like it's rude for a guy to harass a girl, it's rude for a girl to call a guy out on glancing at their boobs. It's human nature, for f***'s sake I've glanced at my grandmother's chest before. I instantly regretted it but it happened. If you assume that every guy that looks at you is thinking dirty thoughts, you're probably wrong. What's 'inappropriate' by your standards though? You mentioned cleavage as something that you apparently can't stop yourself from looking at. Now, my girlfriend has large breasts. Unless she wears baggy formless clothes, they're going to be prominent. Some of her tops that are the most comfortable on her do *gasp* display cleavage. It's not to get 'attention' from skeevy guys who find it impossible to look at a person's face. At that point, it pretty much becomes the situation that she can't go out without being obligated to put up with creepers. How is that fair? Your 'logic' here is the same kind of stuff you hear from the people who say 'she was wearing too little clothing, she was asking for it'. You're unwilling to change your own behaviour, so you blame women instead. Is that really the kind of argument you want to present? Excluding children, I guess "dressing inappropriately" would be like what the OP was talking about. Nothing against big women at all, but I don't want to see them walking about in half shirts. I mean, I'm not gonna start a thread complaining about it, but I would definitely look away after the first glance. Look, I understand that some chicks can't cover their boobs very well even if they tried. I used to date a girl whose bra size was in the H's. It caused her a lot of unwanted attention and it's not fair but like...it's also one of the reasons she got MY attention. If you're dressed like this And this guy looks at you like this Does it mean he wants to do filthy things to you? Maybe he just believes in love at first site. Maybe you're just projecting your own history with men onto this random asshole. Is that fair? I'm not a girl so this view may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure anyone staring at anyone like that is pretty creepy and means he wants to do filthy things to you. Also... grandma?
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Post by Andrew is Good on Aug 27, 2014 20:24:13 GMT -5
When you have to start defending your legal right to be a creep, you've already lost the argument. And yeah, there's only one way to prevent creepy staring guys. Educate men about how shirking personal responsibility for their behavior is not masculine or natural, but pathetic and dangerous. Oh wait, that's not what you were talking about? Then how can you explain the stares people get when they're dressed modestly? How can you explain the man who stuck his hand up my knee-length skirt to grope my ass? Can you make that my fault? No? Then sit down and listen before you speak. Your argument would strip all personal responsibility from adults who know how not to be creeps, but choose to be creeps because they're bigger and stronger and know it won't get their nose broken. That's ugly. Don't be a creep. It's easy. It stops people from feeling threatened and scared when you're around. Unless you're a psycho, that should be reason enough to avoid doing it. ETA: I know you say you don't do this. But by excusing the people who do, justifying it as something they can't prevent, you're enabling them to continue doing it. That is JUST as messed up as doing it yourself, because by saying that you don't do it, you're undercutting the argument that they can't prevent themselves from doing it. You just think they shouldn't be criticized for it even IF they consciously choose to do it to be intimidating and threatening to others. Is letting go of even a small smidgen of male power so inconceivable that you'd insist that something that is manifestly and obviously not the woman's fault should be MADE her fault to excuse the men? Hold on, I thought that we were talking about women getting unwanted looks for what they wear. You're talking about situations where there is actually a victim. In no way does having a person that you think is creepy stare at you because they think you're sexy make you a victim. It makes you attractive, and it's something that you'll have to deal with. I certainly don't think groping or cat calling or harassing is acceptable behavior, and I'm really sorry that anything like that has ever happened to you. Unfortunately, I don't think you can educate that kind of stuff away. Good luck trying though. May I ask what that "small smidgen of male power" you refer to us letting go of is? I'm not attempting to explain why some people act like creeps. I have no idea why some dude stuck his hand up your skirt, but he sounds like a real dip-shit. I have fought with dudes over stuff like that before. I'm simply saying, don't tell me where to look. Just like it's rude for a guy to harass a girl, it's rude for a girl to call a guy out on glancing at their boobs. It's human nature, for f***'s sake I've glanced at my grandmother's chest before. I instantly regretted it but it happened. If you assume that every guy that looks at you is thinking dirty thoughts, you're probably wrong. What's 'inappropriate' by your standards though? You mentioned cleavage as something that you apparently can't stop yourself from looking at. Now, my girlfriend has large breasts. Unless she wears baggy formless clothes, they're going to be prominent. Some of her tops that are the most comfortable on her do *gasp* display cleavage. It's not to get 'attention' from skeevy guys who find it impossible to look at a person's face. At that point, it pretty much becomes the situation that she can't go out without being obligated to put up with creepers. How is that fair? Your 'logic' here is the same kind of stuff you hear from the people who say 'she was wearing too little clothing, she was asking for it'. You're unwilling to change your own behaviour, so you blame women instead. Is that really the kind of argument you want to present? Excluding children, I guess "dressing inappropriately" would be like what the OP was talking about. Nothing against big women at all, but I don't want to see them walking about in half shirts. I mean, I'm not gonna start a thread complaining about it, but I would definitely look away after the first glance. Look, I understand that some chicks can't cover their boobs very well even if they tried. I used to date a girl whose bra size was in the H's. It caused her a lot of unwanted attention and it's not fair but like...it's also one of the reasons she got MY attention. If you're dressed like this And this guy looks at you like this Does it mean he wants to do filthy things to you? Maybe he just believes in love at first site. Maybe you're just projecting your own history with men onto this random asshole. Is that fair? To be fair, if women were harassed regularly, why wouldn't they think they would project their own history onto that guy? I always hear stories about women who have to hold their keys in their hands like a weapon in case they get approached by a stranger. It's just, 1 in 5 women get raped and I don't think people get that. I remember I brought this up on this board, and I brought up the 1 in 4 stat and I was scolded that it was this out of date stat. Then I looked up a more up to date stat and it was 1 in 5, so I was like, well f***. I've had two women tell me they've been raped, one multiple times, so I think it would be pretty smart to project their own history onto any random asshat.
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Post by Famous Rocking Chimes on Aug 27, 2014 20:29:46 GMT -5
I know everything is tense right now but what's the deal with parrots talking? That's some crazy **** right there.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 31,958
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Post by Perd on Aug 27, 2014 20:37:35 GMT -5
Pooh also doesn't have pants, so I can't say his is a midriff top To be fair, I don't think anyone but Christopher Robin in the 100 Acre Wood wears pants, either, unless you count Piglet's singlet thing, but if you have a shit and no pants, it stands out more. Call me a weirdo, but I always have my pants down wild having a shit.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 27, 2014 21:20:31 GMT -5
"My eyes are up here, mister!"
"Ya, but your big tits are down there."
Seriously, though, you should hear some of the things women say about dudes when they're out with with their friends. It's delightfully disgusting. It's sometimes like a porno movie conversation, but without the pizza delivery dude with a one piece Velcro jumper.
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Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
Posts: 11,846
Member is Online
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Post by Heartbreaker on Aug 27, 2014 21:55:31 GMT -5
People should learn that just because a woman wears a bit of revealing clothing, it doesn't mean she's doing it FOR you or another man. She's most doing it for herself because *gasp* maybe it's comfortable or makes her feel confident. I wear push-up bras and am I doing it for attention? Hell no. It makes my outfits look better.
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Post by edgestar on Aug 27, 2014 21:59:11 GMT -5
I choose not to wear midriff baring tops, because I have scars on my stomach from an operation I had when I was younger. I'm not bothered by any other girls wearing them, though.
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agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
Doesn't Know Whose Ring It Is
Posts: 21,164
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Post by agent817 on Aug 27, 2014 22:01:56 GMT -5
As the OP, I must say this:
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 61,896
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Aug 27, 2014 22:15:27 GMT -5
I know everything is tense right now but what's the deal with parrots talking? That's some crazy **** right there. Parrots are people too
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 22:20:24 GMT -5
I know everything is tense right now but what's the deal with parrots talking? That's some crazy **** right there. Parrots are people too You know what, f*** it, that gimmick was brilliant.
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Post by No Name is needed Bro Beans on Aug 27, 2014 22:23:02 GMT -5
You know what, f*** it, that gimmick was brilliant. I agree he should have one last run
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jagilki
Patti Mayonnaise
Nobody notices him; No, we noticed him
f*** Cancer
Posts: 33,594
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Post by jagilki on Aug 27, 2014 22:28:42 GMT -5
You know what, f*** it, that gimmick was brilliant. I agree he should have one last run I'm pretty sure he's dead. But I guess Koko can have one last run.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 22:36:11 GMT -5
But when we discuss these issues, it'd be nice to see people offer opinions while adding the caveat "Hey, I'm not a [woman/minority/person suffering from mental illness/etc.], but I'm curious about [whatever issue]", which is a much, much more respectful way to go about it. Honestly, though? To be real... Seeing how shit like this usually turns out, the best solution is always for people to know when to stay in their lanes. Like, as a cis-dude who identifies as a male, I don't have anything to say to a woman about how a woman reacts to...the shit she gets being a woman. I understand we think our opinions about everything should matter, but you wouldn't think to talk shit about a neurosurgeon's job just because you also have a brain. A lot of people would benefit from understanding there's some things you can't give your opinion about because to give your opinion regardless tends to reveal you to be a jerk who doesn't have any idea of what they're talking about. I think that's a basic part of the maturation process. A woman has forgotten more about dealing with Schrodinger's Pervert and all the things surrounding that than I'll ever learn by reading about on the internet or talking to them.
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