Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 11, 2014 20:05:38 GMT -5
The same movie that killed Darwin also demonstrated that Mystique's DNA does more than simply alter her appearance and make her extremely fast, agile, and strong. A dose of medication derived of her serum amplified Beast's mutations. This is what makes it possible for the Sentinels to do their adaptation. You see throughout the movie that Trask was collecting mutant DNA through the years. With Mystique's DNA you could simply imprint all of those mutant DNA into the Sentinels and use her DNA to activate and amplify those mutant powers for the Sentinels as needed. Nope. Amplification is not adaptation. Her power isn't adaptation. Never has been, never will be. You see how ridiculous and flimsy it gets trying to finagle Mystique into this part of the storyline? They really could have just said Darwin actually is still alive (there's no reason why he shouldn't be), is in their custody and they were using his blood and tissue to study mutants and eventually design Sentinels? You know, the ones that adapt to the powers thrown at them. You did not understand me. I am not saying that the power she imparted to the Sentinels wass adaptation. Adaptation is a natural trait in organic organisms if the genetics are already in place. I am saying that her genetic contribution to the Sentinels is to amplify pre-existing adaptations. Maybe I should use some real world examples to better explain myself. Let's say that you work with MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus). While there are many things that could prove fatal to any particular bacterium, this strain of S. aureus is noteworthy because it has evolved to have resistance to a large number of these things. It has the genetics needed to survive under certain acid conditions, exposure to a wide array of antibiotics, certain saline concentrations, and exposure to certain elements of the human immune system. The thing is, it is disadvantageous to express these traits at all times as it is too much of a draw of resources to do so. Therefore, those genes needed to survive under duress are only expressed when they are needed. Strains of MRSA that can better survive under any particular duress are ones that amplifies the expression of those genes powerfully and quickly only when needed. Therefore, simply having the genes needed is not enough. Activation and rapid expression of those genes are just as important. Fortunately for the bacteria, many of the mechanisms for rapid expression can be redundant and works for multiple genes. To make a comparison, I said that the Sentinels could already be pre-programmed with a lot of mutant genetics that grant powers. However, expressing all of those powers at once would be extremely inefficient and be a tremendous drain on the Sentinel. If you only express the traits you need at the time you need them, this would allow the Sentinel to make best use of what power they have on hand and be as overwhelming as possible. If an individual Sentinel finds itself being assaulted with a pyrotechnic attack, it should have a pre-programmed response that starts expressing the genes to resist that particular type of attack. It will need to express those genes quickly. Unfortunately, gene expression in the Sentinels would be much more complicated than in the MRSAs. To rapidly amplify any particular set of genes would require a complete second set of amplification genes. In other words, for every power you want the Sentinels to have they would either need to have two sets of genes (expression and amplification) or you can have twice as many sets of powers if you have one set of genes that can amplify all power expression genes. THAT would be how I would explain why Mystique was the lynchpin of how the Sentinels worked. What's more, to say that using Darwin's genetics would have been better, the fact that his adaptation powers were overwhelmed in First Class demonstrates that that would not have been sufficient as canon in the films has been established. Darwin adapted to conditions but clearly was never overwhelmingly powerful when he adapted. The Sentinels needed that. Combining the powers of various powerful mutants allow the Sentinels to have that power. Mystique's genes would allow them to pack more powers in them. Yes, the nerd is strong in this one. |
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Post by Red Impact on Nov 11, 2014 20:15:12 GMT -5
The same movie that killed Darwin also demonstrated that Mystique's DNA does more than simply alter her appearance and make her extremely fast, agile, and strong. A dose of medication derived of her serum amplified Beast's mutations. This is what makes it possible for the Sentinels to do their adaptation. You see throughout the movie that Trask was collecting mutant DNA through the years. With Mystique's DNA you could simply imprint all of those mutant DNA into the Sentinels and use her DNA to activate and amplify those mutant powers for the Sentinels as needed. Nope. Amplification is not adaptation. Her power isn't adaptation. Never has been, never will be. You see how ridiculous and flimsy it gets trying to finagle Mystique into this part of the storyline? They really could have just said Darwin actually is still alive (there's no reason why he shouldn't be), is in their custody and they were using his blood and tissue to study mutants and eventually design Sentinels? You know, the ones that adapt to the powers thrown at them. Honestly, neither comic character would work with the plot of the movie. They'd need Rogue for that. Due to comic book nature of continuously escalating character's powers, adaptation to survive actually became a facet of her powers back in the early 2000's. But they were confined to the limitations of her own power, like taking on a metal form or shifting her organs so bullets wouldn't kill her. Darwin gained spontaneous adaptations, gills if he was underwater, the ability to survive in space, etc. But the sentinels in the movies actually took on the powers of people they were fighting, which goes beyond adaptation and more into power mimicry, which neither were really able to do. Mystique never could mimic powers, unless they were just some physical attribute like wings, and Darwin didn't gain powers in so much as his body altered to survive it. The comics even had his power just teleport him away when he fought Hulk, rather than give him the strength to fight him. Granted, all that really says is that Darwin's death in First Class was all the more stupid. "I'm able to adapt to anything that would kil me, except this thing that's killing me!" |
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 11, 2014 20:23:52 GMT -5
Nope. Amplification is not adaptation. Her power isn't adaptation. Never has been, never will be. You see how ridiculous and flimsy it gets trying to finagle Mystique into this part of the storyline? They really could have just said Darwin actually is still alive (there's no reason why he shouldn't be), is in their custody and they were using his blood and tissue to study mutants and eventually design Sentinels? You know, the ones that adapt to the powers thrown at them. Honestly, neither comic character would work with the plot of the movie. They'd need Rogue for that. Due to comic book nature of continuously escalating character's powers, adaptation to survive actually became a facet of her powers back in the early 2000's. But they were confined to the limitations of her own power, like taking on a metal form or shifting her organs so bullets wouldn't kill her. Darwin gained spontaneous adaptations, gills if he was underwater, the ability to survive in space, etc. But the sentinels in the movies actually took on the powers of people they were fighting, which goes beyond adaptation and more into power mimicry, which neither were really able to do. Mystique never could mimic powers, unless they were just some physical attribute like wings, and Darwin didn't gain powers in so much as his body altered to survive it. The comics even had his power just teleport him away when he fought Hulk, rather than give him the strength to fight him. Granted, all that really says is that Darwin's death in First Class was all the more stupid. "I'm able to adapt to anything that would kil me, except this thing that's killing me!" It has been months since I saw the movie in the theatre, but I don't recall any particular Sentinel mimic a power that was used on them. I recall them using the perfect counter to powers used against them, which is why I assumed all along that those powers were preprogrammed in the Sentinels. I felt that this assumption was supported when it was shown that Trask was collecting the genetics of a wide array of mutants. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 20:37:44 GMT -5
Best of the series, for the ending retcon alone (Goodbye X3 mwuhahahaha) It didn't just retcon X3, it retconned the entire series except for First Class, the 70's parts in DOFP, and the events of Origins: Wolverine that took place before the 70's. |
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Post by Red Impact on Nov 11, 2014 21:02:35 GMT -5
It has been months since I saw the movie in the theatre, but I don't recall any particular Sentinel mimic a power that was used on them. I recall them using the perfect counter to powers used against them, which is why I assumed all along that those powers were preprogrammed in the Sentinels. I felt that this assumption was supported when it was shown that Trask was collecting the genetics of a wide array of mutants. I thought I recalled them mimicking Iceman's powers at one point. Granted, with how dark the combat scenes were, I could be wrong. If that is the case, then Darwin's power would actually be more ideal, and retconning his death would be the most logical thing in the movie ("My body made it appear like I was dead to survive Shaw's attack.") Mystique has conscious changing of alleles that make up her appearance, so even taking this strange notion of robots expressing biological genes at face value, Mystique's power would be no better suited to allowing the Destroyer-sentinels to pick a counter power than better coding. If you put Darwin's power into them, then it'd go from "I'm fighting a pyrokinetic mutant, I will select the form best suited o fighting them" to "I'm fighting a pyrokinetic mutant, my skin is now coated with asbestos." |
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Post by The Trashman on Nov 11, 2014 21:11:49 GMT -5
It was ok but not as good as people have been making it out to be. Jennifer Lawrence is an awful Mystique and I would really rather watch the 90s cartoon version.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Nov 11, 2014 22:03:56 GMT -5
The same movie that killed Darwin also demonstrated that Mystique's DNA does more than simply alter her appearance and make her extremely fast, agile, and strong. A dose of medication derived of her serum amplified Beast's mutations. This is what makes it possible for the Sentinels to do their adaptation. You see throughout the movie that Trask was collecting mutant DNA through the years. With Mystique's DNA you could simply imprint all of those mutant DNA into the Sentinels and use her DNA to activate and amplify those mutant powers for the Sentinels as needed. Nope. Amplification is not adaptation. Her power isn't adaptation. Never has been, never will be. You see how ridiculous and flimsy it gets trying to finagle Mystique into this part of the storyline? They really could have just said Darwin actually is still alive (there's no reason why he shouldn't be), is in their custody and they were using his blood and tissue to study mutants and eventually design Sentinels? You know, the ones that adapt to the powers thrown at them. The true reason is that, in the time between First Class and this movie, Jennifer Lawrence became Hollywood's new Favorite Actress. So yeah, her star power trumped actual story logic. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 11, 2014 22:05:46 GMT -5
I was more confused how Kitty suddenly had any sorta time travel/mind abilities than whether or not Mystique could impart genetic secrets to the Sentinels.
Ultimately I just accepted both and had fun with it. I chalked it up to them not actually using Raven's DNA or anything, but studying her mimicry abilities and technologically making the Sentinels adaptable, which while Mystique can't actually do that; maybe it just inspired em.
At any rate, adaptoid Sentinels were badass.
I'd put it about even with First Class, and both of those just behind 2 for my favorite.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 23:58:40 GMT -5
Nope. Amplification is not adaptation. Her power isn't adaptation. Never has been, never will be. You see how ridiculous and flimsy it gets trying to finagle Mystique into this part of the storyline? They really could have just said Darwin actually is still alive (there's no reason why he shouldn't be), is in their custody and they were using his blood and tissue to study mutants and eventually design Sentinels? You know, the ones that adapt to the powers thrown at them. Honestly, neither comic character would work with the plot of the movie. They'd need Rogue for that. Due to comic book nature of continuously escalating character's powers, adaptation to survive actually became a facet of her powers back in the early 2000's. But they were confined to the limitations of her own power, like taking on a metal form or shifting her organs so bullets wouldn't kill her. Darwin gained spontaneous adaptations, gills if he was underwater, the ability to survive in space, etc. But the sentinels in the movies actually took on the powers of people they were fighting, which goes beyond adaptation and more into power mimicry, which neither were really able to do. Mystique never could mimic powers, unless they were just some physical attribute like wings, and Darwin didn't gain powers in so much as his body altered to survive it. The comics even had his power just teleport him away when he fought Hulk, rather than give him the strength to fight him. Granted, all that really says is that Darwin's death in First Class was all the more stupid. "I'm able to adapt to anything that would kil me, except this thing that's killing me!" I read comics too, man. I get it. Didn't Darwin end up on the wrong end of a tussle with a death god, and the best his powers could interpret something like that was to make Darwin himself into a god of death? But eh..the entire movie takes place in the past where Rogue isn't born yet, so that's not important to the discussion. Mystique doesn't do any of that metal skin shit here, so that's not applicable to the movies either. If you're going to use the blood or something of a character that make Sentinels who become immune to other people's powers and turn it into a weapon to be used offensively? With the characters you have it makes the most sense if they used Darwin for that. The really messed up thing is they still could've used that Bread Pudding Faced girl as an important figure in the plot; her killing Trask kick starts all the gears in motion anyway. She didn't need people scrambling for her blood, which apparently can be made into whatever-the-hell and we're just supposed to act like it makes sense. Seriously, we're in this weird movie blockbuster era that's all about using people's blood to do absurd shit. It's at the point now that the moment I know someone's blood is the MacGuffin, I have to struggle to not write it off as lazy. It's a movie trope that's been way overused. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 0:13:27 GMT -5
You did not understand me. I am not saying that the power she imparted to the Sentinels wass adaptation. Adaptation is a natural trait in organic organisms if the genetics are already in place. I am saying that her genetic contribution to the Sentinels is to amplify pre-existing adaptations. The problem is I'm saying the mere fact Darwin was "overwhelmed" with powers and was somehow killed was bullshit writing. Particularly when the lone Black dude dying for reasons is literally a movie trope. We see the Sentinels adapt to powers and use it offensively. We can tie ourselves into knots to explain how you could jury-rig Mystique's power to work... ...or you could just use the guy you killed off (whose power literally meant HE COULDN'T BE KILLED OFF) who actually had this as an actual power. But no, Shaw can just kill him because...I don't know...someone needed to die? Shitty writing dude. Granted, I ride or die for my black characters, and if that's the case you've got to deal with a lot of characters you like getting the shaft, disappearing into the background and/or getting killed off to further everyone else's shit. It was just egregious with Darwin because nothing we see leads us to believe that Shaw could've killed him. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 0:23:40 GMT -5
Mystique is just the weakest part of the film to me, and that's a problem due to how much focus is on her. Jennifer Lawrence wasn't good in the role in First Class and the only reason she got so much focus in this one is due to her becoming a bigger star between the two movies. I thought Rebecca Romijn nailed the role in the original films, so yeah...
That said, I do like most of the movie around that. Broken down Professor X, Jackman is always great, Fassbender is awesome, the Quicksilver scene, and Dinklage's appearance. I was kinda disappointed because I thought there was an opportunity to pick the dream roster from both timelines and get them into a new combined cast. Cycle out Stewart/McKellen for McAvoy/Fassbender, keep Jackman, Mystique takes on the appearance of Rebecca Romijn, we introduce Storm's mom or something to get Angela Bassett into the role, Grammer as Beast, Marsden and Famke stay, and Colossus finally gets some love.
And that's why I didn't write the movie because it would make no sense other than to get that cast together.
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Post by ronin705 on Nov 12, 2014 0:51:23 GMT -5
Best of the series, for the ending retcon alone (Goodbye X3 mwuhahahaha) It didn't just retcon X3, it retconned the entire series except for First Class, the 70's parts in DOFP, and the events of Origins: Wolverine that took place before the 70's. Which leaves us with: - Wolverine and Sabretooth beingbrothers (YES!!) - A non Baraka DEADPOOL (YESSS!!!!) - A future that Kelsey Grammer still is Beast (YESSSSS!!!!!) - And a non wussified Cyclops (thank you Based Singer) Color me satisfied. |
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 12, 2014 0:51:32 GMT -5
You did not understand me. I am not saying that the power she imparted to the Sentinels wass adaptation. Adaptation is a natural trait in organic organisms if the genetics are already in place. I am saying that her genetic contribution to the Sentinels is to amplify pre-existing adaptations. The problem is I'm saying the mere fact Darwin was "overwhelmed" with powers and was somehow killed was bullshit writing. Particularly when the lone Black dude dying for reasons is literally a movie trope. We see the Sentinels adapt to powers and use it offensively. We can tie ourselves into knots to explain how you could jury-rig Mystique's power to work... ...or you could just use the guy you killed off (whose power literally meant HE COULDN'T BE KILLED OFF) who actually had this as an actual power. But no, Shaw can just kill him because...I don't know...someone needed to die? Shitty writing dude. Granted, I ride or die for my black characters, and if that's the case you've got to deal with a lot of characters you like getting the shaft, disappearing into the background and/or getting killed off to further everyone else's shit. It was just egregious with Darwin because nothing we see leads us to believe that Shaw could've killed him. I guess I have no attachment to Darwin as I never came across the character in the comics. I do have a problem with the under-representation of minorities in comics or their associated movies, and really don't like when minorities are solely used as villains (at the end of the movie all surviving minorities had switched sides to the bad guys or were there all along). Still, in terms of writing how would Darwin have been used in the final battle if he had not been killed? You say it was lazy writing, but I sort of feel as though they were written into a corner by simply having him in the movie and committing to using the Cuban Missile Crisis as the backdrop of their climax. As far as whether they should have used Darwin as the basis of the Sentinels, I will not argue about whether they should and simply state that the fact was they no longer could. They flat out said that there was nothing of Darwin left in the previous movie (which was surely written long before they started the pre-production of Days of Future Past). If they had simply done that surely someone would have had a bitchfit about that retcon. Personally, I usually prefer to not overthink movies. Hell, I can watch and enjoy The Black Hole while still having that little voice in the back of my head pointing out just how inaccurate the science in the film was. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 0:52:39 GMT -5
{Spoiler}Don't forget that many of the non-white characters in the future die to buy the white people in the past more time. Storm? Bishop? Blink? Warpath? Sunspot? And Laura Shuler Donner on the Blu-Ray talks about wanting more diversity in the X-Men films... but then look what happens. Like, huh? MAN, don't remind me. I'm glad I didn't see DoFP in the theater or I would've just walked out on all that shit and been out a good amount of dollars. {Spoiler}I blew a gasket when I saw that shit. Hell, Warpath was awesome. I'd watch a spin-off with a rebooted Warpath on X-Force or something.
But I'm convinced when people in Hollywood talk about "diversity" they only mean diversity in who gets killed off while keeping the stories we're supposed to care about intact.
"Diversity" doesn't count when the characters are all killed off and/or just used as background fodder to make your white characters interesting, y'all.
It's 2014 and I'm tired of seeing that shit in movies point blank, period. |
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riseofsetian1981
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Nov 12, 2014 1:16:29 GMT -5
The problem is I'm saying the mere fact Darwin was "overwhelmed" with powers and was somehow killed was bullshit writing. Particularly when the lone Black dude dying for reasons is literally a movie trope. We see the Sentinels adapt to powers and use it offensively. We can tie ourselves into knots to explain how you could jury-rig Mystique's power to work... ...or you could just use the guy you killed off (whose power literally meant HE COULDN'T BE KILLED OFF) who actually had this as an actual power. But no, Shaw can just kill him because...I don't know...someone needed to die? Shitty writing dude. Granted, I ride or die for my black characters, and if that's the case you've got to deal with a lot of characters you like getting the shaft, disappearing into the background and/or getting killed off to further everyone else's shit. It was just egregious with Darwin because nothing we see leads us to believe that Shaw could've killed him. Don't forget that many of the non-white characters in the future die to buy the white people in the past more time. Storm? Bishop? Blink? Warpath? Sunspot? And Laura Shuler Donner on the Blu-Ray talks about wanting more diversity in the X-Men films... but then look what happens. Like, huh? {Spoiler}That's hilarious because Iceman and Colossus died trying to buy them time as well. Last time I checked they are white too. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 8:01:32 GMT -5
It didn't just retcon X3, it retconned the entire series except for First Class, the 70's parts in DOFP, and the events of Origins: Wolverine that took place before the 70's. Which leaves us with: - Wolverine and Sabretooth beingbrothers (YES!!) - A non Baraka DEADPOOL (YESSS!!!!) - A future that Kelsey Grammer still is Beast (YESSSSS!!!!!) - And a non wussified Cyclops (thank you Based Singer) Color me satisfied. Yeah, so glad they don't have to do a lot of retconning/fixing for the Deadpool film. And I love that it's a reboot but they could still use the old actors since it's just an altered timeline. Don't get me wrong, it didn't explain away every little inconsistency, but this movie was the best thing they could have done with the franchise. |
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Nov 12, 2014 8:59:22 GMT -5
As someone pointed out, here's how you work Mystique into the story. She assassinates Trask which is the factor in the Sentinel program being picked up. Because, you know, the original Days of Future Past was caused by the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants assassinating Senator Kelly. Then have like the sentinels of the future being sort of like Nimrod (already a highly adaptable sentinel) who was a big enough threat on his own let alone being back up by multiple other sentinels with the same power set. We're talking about a robot that was able to break off Juggernauts helmet with a backhand. Just change the name of it and maybe modernise the design of it and you're good. It's also a shame that this never happened in the movie. Mostly just because this is an iconic frame in X-Men history. But Wolverine had to go back into the past so we couldn't get it. I also want it just because it would be really f***ed up to see.  |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 12, 2014 8:59:56 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't see why people rate Rebecca Romijn so highly. She had about five lines of dialogue in each movie, and none of them required much acting range. It's not as if she really had much physical acting to do either.
I'm not saying Jennifer Lawrence has been a revelation, but she has had so much more asked of her in the role.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Nov 12, 2014 10:17:32 GMT -5
On the matter of Darwin vs Mystique, this is how I would have handled it.
Have Darwin's Face-Heel turn in First Class actually be legit instead of killing him off. During the time frame between First Class and Days of Future Past All of the Proto-Brotherhood mutants except for Mystique and Darwin got wiped out. Darwin has been captured by Thrask while Mystique is trying to save him. That way, the Sentinel's "always adapting" power makes more sense, and Mystique's crusade to kill Thrask is made more sympathetic.
But alas, always gotta kill the black guy.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 12, 2014 12:26:08 GMT -5
I also prefer Rebecca Romijn to Jennifer Lawrence.
She can do sultry far better.
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