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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 5:57:40 GMT -5
See the movie Perks of Being a Wallflower. That is such a dark dark dark joke {Spoiler}{Spoiler}
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Feb 12, 2015 14:13:02 GMT -5
I also think the 'audiences care about Peter Parker' point is overstated. People, namely casual comic book movie fans who don't read the books, want to see Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Wolverine. That these characters are Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor Odinson, Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, and Logan is kind of meaningless after the fact. That's not to say that you can tell great stories with the superheroes' real identities, but my guess is that people want to see the costumes and the powers and the fights. The movies are the new comics, so to speak. I suspect it's more common to hear 'wow, Spider-Man was so cool in that scene when he...' rather than 'holy shit, when Peter Parker did that one thing, it was...'. Spider-Man is the draw, Peter Parker is simply along for the ride I guess while we are at it, we should do Dick Greyson's Batman for the next Batman film.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 14:14:42 GMT -5
Again, I agree with you. I just think it's lazy writing to stuff a black guy in the Spider-Man costume when they could have taken the exact same character and given him his own unique powers. By most accounts Miles is a well-written character, so why have him leech off the identity of one of Marvel's all-time top characters? Miles actually does have a powerset specific to him and even the powers he has similar to Parker, they don’t work in quite the same way. And the only thing Miles is is a legacy character, just like Wally West, Cassandra Cain, Simon Baz, Scott Lang, Kamala Khan and all those other people. You’ve always had legacy characters in comics so there’s no reason why it’s such a travesty with Miles “leeching” off anything. Another thing too is that names matter, especially amongst the insular comic fandom. A lot of the hate also comes from the fact he has the name SPIDER-MAN which makes him much harder to ignore and marginalize. Like, nobody hates too hard on Batwing and it’s not just because he has his own identity, it’s pretty easy to not pay attention to anything he does because he’s technically not BATMAN. I can’t walk into…wherever the hell you get comics these days and buy a Batman book with him being on the cover as the Batman. You think the hate was bad when Dick Grayson got the mantle? I guarantee you that hate would’ve been a torrent had Luke Fox ever come close to being Batman. It’s related to the shitstorm that always comes when a Black character does something important that can't be ignored by comic fandom. They literally turned Iron Man and Thor into the elite. If they can do that with Iron Man, Thor, make the Guardians of the Galaxy be a name and pump out an ANT-MAN MOVIE then you can’t make any case that it’s just a set of benign decisions based only on popularity (and if they can bump movies out of the way to make way for yet another Parker movie, then the Marvel “plan” isn’t very static). Like, Marvel built their MCU out of characters who weren’t very popular and made them that way with one movie and good promotion. Marvel doesn't need Peter Parker as much as they just need Spider-Man and Miles Morales is Spider-Man. Marvel definitely needs some superhero movies not focused on white men though... Why the hell not when the only people who will raise a stink about it talking about “RUINED FOREVER!” are going to be a subset of the already insular and shrinking comic book aficionados (and those same people complaining about Rue being Black)? Y’all literally have five movies about Peter Parker. Apparently you don’t have to wait for another Peter Parker movie, but I’m expected to wait to not only see Miles in the suit but any Black hero get that treatment? No, that wouldn’t be reasonable for anything, let alone a cinematic juggernaut in 2015. Marvel can EAD for finagling another Peter Parker movie in there.
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Fundertaker
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 12, 2015 14:17:49 GMT -5
I also think the 'audiences care about Peter Parker' point is overstated. People, namely casual comic book movie fans who don't read the books, want to see Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Wolverine. That these characters are Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor Odinson, Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, and Logan is kind of meaningless after the fact. That's not to say that you can tell great stories with the superheroes' real identities, but my guess is that people want to see the costumes and the powers and the fights. The movies are the new comics, so to speak. I suspect it's more common to hear 'wow, Spider-Man was so cool in that scene when he...' rather than 'holy shit, when Peter Parker did that one thing, it was...'. Spider-Man is the draw, Peter Parker is simply along for the ride I guess while we are at it, we should do Dick Greyson's Batman for the next Batman film. I'm down. Also down for Jean-Paul Valley's Az-Bat.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 12, 2015 14:19:52 GMT -5
I'd be fine with Miles or Peter honestly..but I'll cop to emotional ttachment to Pete.
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Post by Psy on Feb 12, 2015 14:29:50 GMT -5
This thread is literally the first time I've ever heard of this "Miles" Spiderman. I'd want a Peter Parker Spiderman, personally, because that's the one I'm most familiar with and enjoyed through so many cartoons, movies, games, and comics (back when I read them... disposable income, return to me! Please!).
I'm not going to say I'd boycott a Spiderman movie that had a different Spiderman, but I would be less enthused.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 15:30:20 GMT -5
White people aren't the only people deserving enough to see themselves portrayed front and center as superheroes. Literally that's all I've got to say as to why a Miles movie among others should always be a thing and not have to rely on the success of "Black superhero #2" in order to even get greenlit. Shit like this should just be done because black people exist. Black Superhero #2? You want more ethnic characters but you are trivializing Black Panther. Shouldn't you support that character's movie as well? I ask that because you also said: That's also why I don't jive with people talking about only using characters that have been around for some arbitrary amount of time: And yet you don't seem to support Black Panther, Falcon, Black Widow, Blade, War Machine because they are B or C characters. They are for some reason not representation enough because they don't have that arbitrary cultural legacy. So instead you want to just change the ethnicity of a character who has the arbitrary ( as you put it ) history. - You want ethnic characters that don't require a 50+ year history - Yet the"lower tier" characters aren't good enough representation - You don't seem to agree with the idea of the onus being on artists and writers creating more ethnic superheros so that there is more diversity - You instead advocate making Spider-Man, Batman, Superman etc. Black/Hispanic/Asian/Female/ You seem to want what you don't want and don't want what you want. Changing the skintone of a established superhero doesn't create a pioneering legacy. Creating a pioneering legacy does.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 16:42:48 GMT -5
Black Superhero #2? You want more ethnic characters but you are trivializing Black Panther. Shouldn't you support that character's movie as well? And yet you don't seem to support Black Panther, Falcon, Black Widow, Blade, War Machine because they are B or C characters. They are for some reason not representation enough because they don't have that arbitrary cultural legacy. Wait…what? How are you going to come into a topic that’s about a possible Spider-Man reboot then ask people why they aren’t talking about…people who aren’t Spider-Man? You’re the one who said I’m not for those movies, even though I’m really confused as to why you’d assume this. I can be for a Miles movie and for wanting to see all those characters get shine like they should. What I’m saying doesn’t conflict with each other. Because this topic is about Spider-Man, I’m focusing on Spider-Man. The rest of your post was kinda confusing because it wavers back and forth between issues outside this topic and issues you’re only assuming I agree with for…reasons…so unfortunately the best way I can address all that is by breaking it down: I literally never said they should make Peter Parker black, EVEN THOUGH NOTHING ABOUT HIS CHARACTER MEANS HE HAS TO BE A WHITE GUY. I’m saying they should make Miles Morales into Spider-Man like he is in the comic. Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. I do. Because as I previously said, if people go by that you run into a time when nearly every person who got play in a comic was a white guy and really, movie adaptations of books don’t abide by that same standard anyway, why should these comic book movies? I explained this already. If they have the history then that's great, but there's no reason why it should be required. Unless any of those characters you’ve named have a solo movie with a date that’s filming as we speak? No. White people don’t have to put up with only being sidekicks or best friends when fantastic shit goes down so why am I expected to put up with it? That’s a really strange conclusion to come to considering all the stuff I’ve already said in this topic… If you want to be real, Spider-Man is already a black kid. Talking about Superman could mean you’re talking about either Clark Kent or more than one black guy, but that’s just me being taking the piss. But I support Miles Morales/Spider-Man and generally any marginalized person stepping in as legacies along with the creation and promotion of original characters. I know painting me as a guy who is one or the other helps with your argument, but this isn’t debate class. There aren’t many things I find more insulting than people telling me what I want, especially when I spell out what I want in so much detail.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 18:32:28 GMT -5
I'd be perfectly fine with a black Peter Parker. There's nothing specifically racial about Parker's back story at all. Where race changes to Captain America, Superman, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Storm, Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man and some others would be detrimental to their histories in one way or another, it wouldn't affect Spidey's. I think Donald Glover would be great for the role.
The first Spider-Man in the MCU should be definitely be Peter Parker though.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Feb 12, 2015 18:47:33 GMT -5
I'd have been on board for an Emma Stone led Spider-Gwen movie
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 18:56:43 GMT -5
Wait…what? How are you going to come into a topic that’s about a possible Spider-Man reboot then ask people why they aren’t talking about…people who aren’t Spider-Man? Come on man, you brought them up yourself and said even though some of them appeared in film that's it not good enough because they don't have a stand alone film. Don't act like I'm the only one who brought those characters up. I'm only addressing you when it comes to these characters so to say I'm "asking other people" is a bit disingenuous Anytime those characters where brought up as illustrations of how ethnicity or gender were represented you explained in your opinion as to why you thought it wasn't good enough. And now you are asking me why I would assume this? It was and you did. Until you brought up the rest of the MCU and your issues with them being predominantly white. No you did not and if I insinuated otherwise I apologize. However you did argue for Miles Morales, as well written as he may be, as good of a character as he may be, at the end of the day he still is inside a Spider-Man suit. He is not a separate original character with own unique name that will trail blaze ethnicity representation. I'll give you another example: You have a basketball team. Let's say Larry Bird is on your team. You feel that there isn't enough ethnicity so you find this black guy that is a good well rounded player. Everyone likes him. Then you proceed to make him wear Larry's jersey and gear and play in his position. You tout that as a great improvement. Meanwhile there is another person who says we should check out this really impressive player, that could be a real asset of the team and bring something never before seen to the sport, he's from the University of North Carolina and his name is Michael Jordan. I agree completely. That also means that nothing about his character means he has to be any other ethnicity either. Because as you just pointed out. It's not important. You just invalidated your own argument. And you asked me previously why I assume you think this way. But it is in fact a debate. I am not making you out to be one position or the other, I am merely showing by observation how you do that with your own words. You told us what you wanted. No one else. Then I pointed out how you contradicted your own words. So you are essentially mad at yourself for telling us what you wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 19:39:49 GMT -5
You told us what you wanted. No one else. Then I pointed out how you contradicted your own words. So you are essentially mad at yourself for telling us what you wanted. Wha...? I'm not going to repeat myself, these posts are just getting too long.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Feb 12, 2015 19:48:59 GMT -5
Could we have a gay Peter Parker, with a male MJ?
Or a gay Miles with a male.....whomever Miles' love interest is
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 12, 2015 20:10:02 GMT -5
Miles actually does have a powerset specific to him and even the powers he has similar to Parker, they don’t work in quite the same way. But all of Miles' core powers are basically variations of Peter's, or powers regularly seen in the Spider-Man continuity, which makes Miles less unique and more "Peter Parker's non-Union Mexican equivalent". And once again, I've always been of the mindset that legacy characters, for the most part, are the hallmark of lazy writers. As with killing off a major character (who inevitably is resurrected), the passing of the torch is such an overdone trope it's lost all meaning. When every major character has passed on the mantle to another it's no longer a special event, it's more a case of "wow, I'm surprised it took them this long." In recent years they've taken the route of passing the torch to a minority character, which in itself feels even lazier. "We're under pressure to bring more diversity into our stories. Anybody got any ideas for a great new hero that will appeal to the [insert random minority] demographic?"
"Not really. How about we just kill off [insert random hero] and put a [insert random minority] in the costume?"
"Sold!"Forgive me if it seems like I'm trivialising it a bit, but to me it seems less like a genuine effort to diversify and more like a case of giving the minorities a white male's hand-me-down. Miles is a Spider-Man. It's not like they retired the Peter Parker character, he's still around in a concurrent continuity, and like it or not, Parker is still the Spider-Man in the eyes of the masses. That's why it makes sense for the original to be first up in the MCU. Of course. As you say, there's no reason why Peter Parker needs to be white, and I'd be all in favour of that as long as the story is good and the actor is decent in the role. "Ruined forever" people can join the "Raping my childhood" people and go die in a fire. The point is, while we have had five Parker films, none of them have been MCU films. People have been waiting decades to see Spider-Man interact with the other Marvel heroes on the big screen. Just because Miles happens to be the guy in the suit in one continuity at the moment doesn't mean he needs to be the one, and Marvel sure didn't bust their balls to gain the rights to Spider-Man to then not use the character who popularised the role to begin with. Hell, we've got people bitching that the lead of the Ant-Man film isn't Hank Pym. Since you insist that nobody really gives a shit about Ant-Man, can you imagine the blowback if Marvel's first use of Spider-Man isn't Peter Parker? Trust me, I'm in no hurry to see any Spider-Man in the MCU. I thought it was fine without him, and my first reaction when the deal with Sony was confirmed was disappointment followed by weary resignation. In the end you're just coming across as being butthurt because Marvel have done the logical thing and gone with the established character who has 50 years of stories to use over a character who is still being established and only been around for five years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 20:31:47 GMT -5
The use of "butthurt" is one of the magic words I think about whenever I decide to directly engage somebody in these types of posts.
I mean...of course I'm angry. That's part of the point; you can't be ironically detached from an issue that really pisses you off.
If you don't think this representation stuff is an important issue (it is), then just admit it already. Just save people time...
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 12, 2015 20:51:42 GMT -5
The use of "butthurt" is one of the magic words I think about whenever I decide to directly engage somebody in these types of posts. I mean...of course I'm angry. That's part of the point; you can't be ironically detached from an issue that really pisses you off. If you don't think this representation stuff is an important issue (it is), then just admit it already. Just save people time... On the contrary, it most certainly is an important issue, and I can understand your anger. We're on the same side of that aspect of the argument; where we differ is that I feel like Marvel's attempts so far at diversifying have been half-assed at best. With regards to Spider-Man, it just seems to me you either can't understand the clearly logical reasons why Marvel would choose Peter Parker over Miles Morales as the MCU Spider-Man and why they've bumped back several movies that happen to star minority characters. I'm not saying I agree with the latter action, but from a business standpoint it's understandable.
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Feb 12, 2015 21:15:07 GMT -5
I'd be perfectly fine with a black Peter Parker. There's nothing specifically racial about Parker's back story at all. Where race changes to Captain America, Superman, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Storm, Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man and some others would be detrimental to their histories in one way or another, it wouldn't affect Spidey's. I think Donald Glover would be great for the role. The first Spider-Man in the MCU should be definitely be Peter Parker though. I think Donald could work, but you would need to write an older Spider-Man and not one in his teens as Marvel/Sony plan to do.
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Post by FinalGwen on Feb 12, 2015 21:27:02 GMT -5
Could we have a gay Peter Parker, with a male MJ? Or a gay Miles with a male.....whomever Miles' love interest is Not while Stan Lee is alive. Look at how he reacted to Garfield's proposal of exactly that (well, bi Peter, but male MJ). Wouldn't be surprised if that hurt his chances of returning. I'd be perfectly fine with a black Peter Parker. There's nothing specifically racial about Parker's back story at all. Where race changes to Captain America, Superman, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Storm, Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man and some others would be detrimental to their histories in one way or another, it wouldn't affect Spidey's. I think Donald Glover would be great for the role. The first Spider-Man in the MCU should be definitely be Peter Parker though. I can understand a lot of your examples here, but Superman is one that leaves me a bit befuddled considering that he is a huge metaphor for immigration. He's a child of two worlds, staying close to his heritage with his Kryptonian roots evident in costume/original name/visits to Kandor/etc. while also being happily part of this new culture he's found himself in. I could easily see a Superman of any other ethnicity.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Feb 12, 2015 21:29:37 GMT -5
Could we have a gay Peter Parker, with a male MJ? Or a gay Miles with a male.....whomever Miles' love interest is Not while Stan Lee is alive. Look at how he reacted to Garfield's proposal of exactly that (well, bi Peter, but male MJ). Wouldn't be surprised if that hurt his chances of returning. Except has a figurehead, Stan has 0 power these days. Marvel, Disney, whatever. He's a wheelout attraction, but his opinion counts about as much as Rob Liefields on Shatterstar
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 21:37:55 GMT -5
On the contrary, it most certainly is an important issue, and I can understand your anger. We're on the same side of that aspect of the argument; where we differ is that I feel like Marvel's attempts so far at diversifying have been half-assed at best. With regards to Spider-Man, it just seems to me you either can't understand the clearly logical reasons why Marvel would choose Peter Parker over Miles Morales as the MCU Spider-Man and why they've bumped back several movies that happen to star minority characters. I'm not saying I agree with the latter action, but from a business standpoint it's understandable. ...it's only understandable from a business standpoint because I also know what kind of fevered logic they'd use to justify it, which all boil down to "well, it's always been this way with Spider-Man movies!" and that reason isn't good enough anymore. Honestly all I'm seeing is you saying that you understand why I'm mad, but from everything else it reads to me like you're only trying to placate me and/or come off as more rational. But here's the thing though: if it seems I can't understand Marvel's mysterious ways then you should probably stop responding to me. Marvel's move and the justifying logic isn't reasonable at a basic level. I'm not going to say it is. EDIT: For real though, I'm waiting for someone to cut through all the business and seriously address one of, if not the most pertinent question I asked...I'm going to repeat it since nobody seems to address it directly: White people don’t have to put up with only being sidekicks or best friends when fantastic shit goes down so why am I expected to put up with it?I'm waiting for someone to seriously and directly answer that.
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