FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,512
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Post by FinalGwen on Feb 12, 2015 21:43:27 GMT -5
Not while Stan Lee is alive. Look at how he reacted to Garfield's proposal of exactly that (well, bi Peter, but male MJ). Wouldn't be surprised if that hurt his chances of returning. Except has a figurehead, Stan has 0 power these days. Marvel, Disney, whatever. He's a wheelout attraction, but his opinion counts about as much as Rob Liefields on Shatterstar But having Stan Lee come out and decry the idea didn't make any of them look good, and like it or not, people pay attention to him. So it's another little excuse they have not to move forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 22:06:11 GMT -5
I'd be perfectly fine with a black Peter Parker. There's nothing specifically racial about Parker's back story at all. Where race changes to Captain America, Superman, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Storm, Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man and some others would be detrimental to their histories in one way or another, it wouldn't affect Spidey's. I think Donald Glover would be great for the role. The first Spider-Man in the MCU should be definitely be Peter Parker though. I can understand a lot of your examples here, but Superman is one that leaves me a bit befuddled considering that he is a huge metaphor for immigration. He's a child of two worlds, staying close to his heritage with his Kryptonian roots evident in costume/original name/visits to Kandor/etc. while also being happily part of this new culture he's found himself in. I could easily see a Superman of any other ethnicity. Superman is definitely a huge metaphor for immigration. Clark Kent however had to pass as the son of Jonathan and Martha Kent (at least in the various forms of media where they passed him off as theirs and didn't adopt him). I suppose you could change their race also but you'd have to change at least a dozen other ancillary characters in the Superman family if any of them were to make appearances as well. SuperGirl, Superboy, Power Girl, Eradicator, Jor-El, Lara and Alura immediately come to mind.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,512
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Post by FinalGwen on Feb 12, 2015 22:08:52 GMT -5
I can understand a lot of your examples here, but Superman is one that leaves me a bit befuddled considering that he is a huge metaphor for immigration. He's a child of two worlds, staying close to his heritage with his Kryptonian roots evident in costume/original name/visits to Kandor/etc. while also being happily part of this new culture he's found himself in. I could easily see a Superman of any other ethnicity. Superman is definitely a huge metaphor for immigration. Clark Kent however had to pass as the son of Jonathan and Martha Kent (at least in the various forms of media where they passed him off as theirs and didn't adopt him). I suppose you could change their race also but you'd have to change at least a dozen other ancillary characters in the Superman family if any of them were to make appearances as well. SuperGirl, Superboy, Power Girl, Eradicator, Jor-El, Lara and Alura immediately come to mind. I'd be quite happy to see those changes made - particularly given how likely we are to see Supergirl/Superboy/Power girl/anyone other than Jor-El in a movie - but yeah, I do get how you mean now, thanks!
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Mackenzie Gorn
Don Corleone
I want my personal title back, but I don't know how!
AND THE WAVE OF POSSESIONS DEVOLVE INTO A CHEVY!
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Post by Mackenzie Gorn on Feb 12, 2015 22:10:02 GMT -5
So can we start putting Spidey villains in stuff? I want the likes of Shocker, Morbius and Tombstone in AoS and the Netflix series.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 22:15:36 GMT -5
So can we start putting Spidey villains in stuff? I want the likes of Shocker, Morbius and Tombstone in AoS and the Netflix series. I'd imagine no... That and I'd bet money that, as far as the MCU is concerned, Spider-Man's main "villains" are going to be Iron Man and Captain America.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Feb 12, 2015 22:43:03 GMT -5
I want to see the Spider-Man of the MCU universe tackle with villains like Vermin, Kraven, a proper Venom storyline, and a much more horrific/psychological depiction of the Green Goblin.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 12, 2015 23:10:11 GMT -5
But here's the thing though: if it seems I can't understand Marvel's mysterious ways then you should probably stop responding to me. Marvel's move and the justifying logic isn't reasonable at a basic level. I'm not going to say it is. There's nothing mysterious about it, no feverish logic. As far as Marvel's primary audience is concerned Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and there is no logical rationale to go against audience expectation in a franchise that has been extremely profitable (ASM2 aside) thus far. If you don't think that's reasonable, that's your opinion, but for what it's worth I disagree. There's a lot of race and gender bias issues in the MCU, but this isn't one of them. When the Spider-Man character becomes less synonymous with Peter Parker and more with Miles Morales, then you'll have a case. For argument's sake, let's say they went with Miles and the movie doesn't perform to expectations? Despite the cries for another solo film, Hulk has effectively been relegated to the role of supporting character in the Avengers films because Incredible Hulk barely made a profit, so Marvel clearly have no qualms about not throwing good money after bad, and will find other places for the characters. Then where does that potentially leave things? Miles Morales: The Avengers' young black sidekick? That would go down well, I'm sure. That's a lot of what ifs, I know, but when you're responsible for projects worth hundreds of millions of dollars you have to think of every possibility, and I can understand why Marvel and Sony would want to play it safe while doing that. Remember, the deal has only happened because Spider-Man has become a financial millstone around the neck of Sony. Another failure to live upto projections, and supporting roles in more successful characters movies could be the best any Spider-Man could expect for a good long while. As for why the release has been bumped ahead of Black Panther and Captain Marvel? Earning potential. Spider-Man is a proven box office draw, turning major profits in four of the five movies so far. Black Panther and Captain Marvel are completely untested, and while they're likely to do well, few people (if any) expect either to outdraw Spider-Man. You're shouldn't, and I've not seen a single person here say or insinuate that you should. Like I said, I'm on your side of that argument, whether you believe me or not.
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Feb 12, 2015 23:28:26 GMT -5
I've made my opinion of Miles Morales very clear on this board before...I despise the character and everything about the Ultimate Marvel Universe. Now that this thing has happened with Sony and Marvel, and Spidey can start being in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, there's been some grumbling that they aren't going with Miles, but with Peter again. IF they want to do a Miles movie...and they DO NOT kill Peter Parker and keep it so he can return to being Spider-man at any time, I'll be more okay with this. How do you all feel? If any of you are giant Miles Morales fans, would you be okay with him sharing the Spider-man identity with Peter, or should this be Highlander and there can be only one?
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jagilki
Patti Mayonnaise
Nobody notices him; No, we noticed him
f*** Cancer
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Post by jagilki on Feb 12, 2015 23:30:32 GMT -5
not to be "that guy" but this is pretty heavily discussed in the Marvel/Sony/Spiderman thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 23:54:12 GMT -5
You're shouldn't, and I've not seen a single person here say or insinuate that you should. Like I said, I'm on your side of that argument, whether you believe me or not. I know the difference between someone who actually agrees with my main point and someone who just says they do. People, whether you like Miles or not, whether you claim to notice it or not: Miles would've been the first and only non-white character at the head of their MCU superhero movies until Black Panther came out. So no, it's not like the Hulk getting a movie or any other random white superhero you can name. I bring attention to that question because that's the general issue I'm talking about that nobody will address directly... ...until I phrase it more specifically as: "Why shouldn't Miles Morales be the Spider-Man of MCU?" Then I get a TON of seemingly benign reasons as to why that's just not acceptable: "It would confuse/go against the expectations of Marvel's primary audience!" "It wouldn't make money!" "It'll just be pandering!" "It's shoehorning diversity!" Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel put a bunch of B and C list heroes in A-List movies and now they're names. Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel made bank with Guardians of the Galaxy. Despite the fact we live in a world where we're getting Ant-Man...ANT-MAN...and people just accept it. (No, I don't have any hatred towards Hank Pym...though that actually would make sense considering my avatar.) C'mon son, people by and large don't give a shit that it's not Pym in the suit and even then Pym is still in the movie. To most of the people who are going to see it, Ant-Man is a Marvel superhero movie starring Paul Rudd in a suit that makes him small enough to ride bugs and has Michael Douglas doing stuff, that's it. That's Ant-Man. Marvel can seemingly take damn near any property they have, promote the shit out of it, then make money. But when it comes to putting the one single black kid into the costume as one of the big boys of the MCU, it's too much of a hard sell that Marvel has to default to Peter Parker? Is that really the argument y'all are riding into town with, because when you look at it in context of what Marvel has actually done it's not a good one. Whatever, man. I feel like Marvel and Sony thinks people out here are stupid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 23:56:11 GMT -5
I want to see the Spider-Man of the MCU universe tackle with villains like Vermin, Kraven, a proper Venom storyline, and a much more horrific/psychological depiction of the Green Goblin. Please no more goblins for awhile.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 0:02:40 GMT -5
You're shouldn't, and I've not seen a single person here say or insinuate that you should. Like I said, I'm on your side of that argument, whether you believe me or not. I know the difference between someone who actually agrees with my main point and someone who just says they do. You're not going to touch that specific question because of the way I'm phrasing it... Whether you like Miles or not, whether you claim to notice it or not people: Miles would've been the first and only non-white character at the head of their MCU superhero movies until Black Panther came out. So no, it's not like the Hulk getting a movie or any other random white superhero you can name. However, when I phrase it more specifically as: "Why shouldn't Miles Morales be the Spider-Man of MCU?" I get a TON of seemingly benign reasons as to why that's just not acceptable: "It would confuse/go against the expectations of Marvel's primary audience!" "It wouldn't make money!" "It'll just be pandering!" "It's shoehorning diversity!" Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel put a bunch of B and C list heroes in A-List movies and now they're names. Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel made bank with Guardians of the Galaxy. Despite the fact we live in a world where we're getting Ant-Man...ANT-MAN...and people just accept it. (No, I don't have any hatred towards Hank Pym...though that actually would make sense considering my avatar.) C'mon son, people by and large don't give a shit that it's not Pym in the suit and even then Pym is still in the movie. To most of the people who are going to see it, Ant-Man is a Marvel superhero movie starring Paul Rudd in a suit that makes him small enough to ride bugs and has Michael Douglas doing stuff, that's it. That's Ant-Man. Marvel can seemingly take damn near any property they have, promote the shit out of it, then make money. But when it comes to putting the one single black kid into the costume as one of the big boys of the MCU, it's too much of a hard sell that Marvel has to default to Peter Parker? Is that really the argument y'all are riding into town with, because when you look at it in context of what Marvel has actually done it's not a good one. Whatever, man. I feel like Marvel and Sony thinks people out here are stupid. So your issue ISN'T race as much as you just like Miles Morales and dislike Peter Parker. If you weren't just using a racial soapbox to promote your Miles agenda you might just realize that there's literally no reason that Peter Parker has to be white. In fact there's a few decent movements in support of non-white actors in the role. Maybe complain about racism when and if they cast a white Peter Parker, otherwise racism has no place in this conversation.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Feb 13, 2015 0:20:54 GMT -5
There's a lot of venom in this thread. I hate seeing all this carnage. But to be honest with you, if we don't get a Peter Parker movie, that'd be a real shocker.
>.>
<.<
I'm afraid of being stung by a scorpion, and Rhino's still the last ECW Champion to me.
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The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Feb 13, 2015 0:29:01 GMT -5
Venom Carnage Scorpion Rhino I see what ya did there
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 13, 2015 1:10:39 GMT -5
You're shouldn't, and I've not seen a single person here say or insinuate that you should. Like I said, I'm on your side of that argument, whether you believe me or not. I know the difference between someone who actually agrees with my main point and someone who just says they do. People, whether you like Miles or not, whether you claim to notice it or not: Miles would've been the first and only non-white character at the head of their MCU superhero movies until Black Panther came out. So no, it's not like the Hulk getting a movie or any other random white superhero you can name. I bring attention to that question because that's the general issue I'm talking about that nobody will address directly... ...until I phrase it more specifically as: "Why shouldn't Miles Morales be the Spider-Man of MCU?" Then I get a TON of seemingly benign reasons as to why that's just not acceptable: "It would confuse/go against the expectations of Marvel's primary audience!" "It wouldn't make money!" "It'll just be pandering!" "It's shoehorning diversity!" Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel put a bunch of B and C list heroes in A-List movies and now they're names. Despite the fact we live in a world where Marvel made bank with Guardians of the Galaxy. Despite the fact we live in a world where we're getting Ant-Man...ANT-MAN...and people just accept it. (No, I don't have any hatred towards Hank Pym...though that actually would make sense considering my avatar.) C'mon son, people by and large don't give a shit that it's not Pym in the suit and even then Pym is still in the movie. To most of the people who are going to see it, Ant-Man is a Marvel superhero movie starring Paul Rudd in a suit that makes him small enough to ride bugs and has Michael Douglas doing stuff, that's it. That's Ant-Man. Marvel can seemingly take damn near any property they have, promote the shit out of it, then make money. But when it comes to putting the one single black kid into the costume as one of the big boys of the MCU, it's too much of a hard sell that Marvel has to default to Peter Parker? Is that really the argument y'all are riding into town with, because when you look at it in context of what Marvel has actually done it's not a good one. Whatever, man. I feel like Marvel and Sony thinks people out here are stupid. I can't help but feel you missed the point I was trying to make with Hulk, but whatever. Let's take race out of it for a second, because I'm not even arguing over that, I'm weighing up the merits of Peter Parker as a character and Miles Morales as a character. Hypothetically, if both characters were of the same ethnicity, would you really pick the lesser-established character known by a small portion of the target audience, or the one known by pretty much all of the target audience? Marvel might be able to make a pile of money from a Miles movie, but why make more work for yourself when the work's already been done? Peter's a proven cash cow and there's hundreds of stories as yet untouched by screenwriters, so they really don't need to redo his origin story yet again. To me the logic behind Marvel's thinking is they can make more money with a Peter movie now and establish Miles for the future when the big passing of the torch moment will mean something, and make even more money out of it. I don't see what is unreasonable about that. You seem to think their logic is "let's make a Peter movie and f*** that little black-Latino kid." If your entire argument for Miles over Peter boils down to "Because he's black" then that isn't a good argument, and bowing to it is pandering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 2:59:04 GMT -5
I can't help but feel you missed the point I was trying to make with Hulk, but whatever. I got your Hulk point, it’s just that it’s not relevant to the point I’m making… Sure, if all were equal and you had Storm, Black Panther, a new Blade reboot, Monica Rambeau/Captain Marvel, Misty Knight, Luke Cage and all those other movies already out, a part of established franchises or even in production you could better use the Hulk or whichever other white character you want to compare, but since Miles’ race is extremely relevant to the point I’ve been making for pages now… …we literally can’t “take race out of it” because if you do we aren’t even talking about anything I said. And that’s not even how the world works anyway so stop trying to push the point down that rabbit hole. You have to address my point and really my question directly, otherwise we’ll just be going in circles. You come at this correct or not at all. No hypotheticals. Not to mention everything surrounding Peter Parker getting a sixth movie is “pandering.” Especially farting around with the MCU movie schedule to get it done. Ant-Man even getting a movie is “pandering.” Just like Miles Morales/Spider-Man would be “pandering.” Everbody deserves to have someone who looks like them on screen, specifically black dudes and little black boys. I generally don’t consider pandering a dirty word, it’s just that whenever something is even attempting to pander to me (in the “I want to see a variety of black heroes front and center on screen” and the “Why the hell can’t Marvel/DC do it?” sense) all these people come out the woodwork condescendingly telling me why it’s a problem to have anything “pandering” towards me. I tend to ignore and/or block those people after a while because I start asking myself if I need their validation so I can feel comfortable expressing and explaining my desire to see these characters front and center…
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 13, 2015 3:28:59 GMT -5
Sure, if all were equal and you had Storm, Black Panther, a new Blade reboot, Monica Rambeau/Captain Marvel, Misty Knight, Luke Cage and all those other movies already out, a part of established franchises or even in production you could better use the Hulk or whichever other white character you want to compare, but since Miles’ race is extremely relevant to the point I’ve been making for pages now… My Hulk point was if Spider-Man doesn't perform solo at the box office (whether it's Peter or Miles), Marvel will damn sure team him up with someone else to do the heavy lifting, and Sony will just focus on their other licenses (until those, too, fail to turn profits). If that happens then the rush to get Miles on screen before Black Panther will have been pretty pointless, no? That's fair enough, and I think we will get there. Black Panther is on the way, Luke Cage is on the way, Blade is expected, and I'm sure more beyond that. It's obviously not happening overnight, but it's a start. Is that what you wanna hear? I doubt it, but that's the best answer I can give to your point, and probably the best answer you can get without asking Kevin Feige directly, I imagine. As I said, my disagreement with you has nothing to do with race. I simply don't think throwing Peter out for Miles before Marvel have had a chance to properly use him on screen is the right way of doing it. Even if we get a black Peter Parker doing the Uncle Ben in the opening act and handing over to Miles, I'll still consider it a complete waste of potential. This is just one of the issues of adapting legacy characters to the screen, and another reason why they suck conceptually. Someone's always going to be disappointed.
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Post by sternrogers01 on Feb 13, 2015 5:46:12 GMT -5
would you be okay with him sharing the Spider-man identity with Peter All speculation so far indicates Marvel are essentially going to do exactly this post-Secret Wars in the comics anyway.
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Post by Famous Rocking Chimes on Feb 13, 2015 8:19:50 GMT -5
not to be "that guy" but this is pretty heavily discussed in the Marvel/Sony/Spiderman thread. I'd love for Miles becoming Spider-Man in the MCU to be its own separate thread because I'm sick of going into that thread expecting excitement and instead I'm seeing an argument about racism and diversity. I'm all for that conversation at another time, but really? Why now, in that thread?
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dav
Hank Scorpio
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Post by dav on Feb 13, 2015 8:20:56 GMT -5
I'm all for it. But then again, I really don't care for Peter Parker as a character.
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