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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on May 20, 2015 5:09:34 GMT -5
I'm not done with the show, but I might be done with reading reviews and feedback on the show. Maybe it's just a way to make the ending seem less horrible, but it's REALLY weird to see so many people try and say that scene wasn't rape
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Post by HMARK Center on May 20, 2015 7:38:54 GMT -5
In reading up on a lot of the reactions out there, I hope people aren't making the leap to the assumption that a lot of the critics are saying "any rape depiction = I'm done with this show!" Honestly, most of the criticism I've read has been pretty nuanced, and given how many depictions of sexual violence there's been on the show since right off the bat in season one, I don't think that's what has most people upset. It seems most of the criticisms either revolve around the artistic storytelling choice, or a bit of a "strike three, you're out" when it comes to inserting rape into the show compared to the books. Quick note, anything I put in spoilers is for book spoilers. Artistically, it's probably maddening for some people who got excited to see Sansa step out of the Eyrie and be an active player in the Game seem like she's now shuffling right back to square one as a damsel in distress at the hands of an abuser. {Spoiler}It's made worse by the fact that, in the book, while Sansa is still stuck in the Eyrie, she's becoming a more and more active player, clearly learning from AND opposing, in her own way, Littlefinger. As slow as her story is moving there, at least there's clear growth happening. Just as bad for some folks is that she goes through a clear cut rape here, yet the incident is used to further Theon's story, not her own. {Spoiler}I understand that for it to work as a book translation, Theon needs to react to Ramsay committing acts of sexual violence against a woman he knows. While what happens to Jeyne in the book is horrific, it it both more implied than shown, and Jeyne, unlike Sansa, isn't a character with a development arc that could be hurt with a moment like this. From the other perspective, I think for some folks this is just a "last straw" moment when it comes to altering the books to include even more rape/sexual violence, as if the books didn't contain enough. This isn't to say, again, that including rape scenes are bad, but I think the main critique I'm reading is that they should accomplish something, and not be tossed in as what amounts to a narrative crutch to depict a woman in trouble. Season One had them change the Dany/Drogo scene from the book; while the book's depiction was definitely creepy, there was at least more consent shown there than in the show (Khal waiting for Dany to say "yes"). Season Four had the friggin' baffling Jaime-raping-Cersei scene, which accomplished nothing, since the whole point of Jaime's arc at that point is that we're supposed to start, y'know, liking him, and the scene in the book was totally consensual. So yeah, I can imagine this being a "strike three, you're out" thing for some people. Sorry for the wall of text, just that I'm hopeful that people who engage in discussions about this are doing one side's argument due diligence and not taking it as simplistic "I don't like </whatever> in TV shows, so I'm done with it now!" ranting, because there's been a lot of nuance out there on this. |
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Post by The Last Hero on May 20, 2015 8:40:25 GMT -5
I'm not done with the show, but I might be done with reading reviews and feedback on the show. Maybe it's just a way to make the ending seem less horrible, but it's REALLY weird to see so many people try and say that scene wasn't rape It's because those people think that in the context of that world it's hard to call that rape. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 20, 2015 9:37:46 GMT -5
I'm not done with the show, but I might be done with reading reviews and feedback on the show. Maybe it's just a way to make the ending seem less horrible, but it's REALLY weird to see so many people try and say that scene wasn't rape It's because those people think that in the context of that world it's hard to call that rape. Well, no, any time there isn't consent it's rape, no matter the time period/setting. In Martin's world (and in the era of Europe he's essentially writing about) it was certainly more accepted and considered acceptable in the context of a marriage-bedding, but it certainly was, is, and continues to be rape. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 20, 2015 10:05:20 GMT -5
It's because those people think that in the context of that world it's hard to call that rape. Well, no, any time there isn't consent it's rape, no matter the time period/setting. In Martin's world (and in the era of Europe he's essentially writing about) it was certainly more accepted and considered acceptable in the context of a marriage-bedding, but it certainly was, is, and continues to be rape. Also, it's acceptable in that world, you can't ignore we're watching it in our world. It's like the Oberyn's death, was it murder or was it acceptable in a trial by combat so his family are meant to be ok with it. Either way a guy's head got caved in. I'm not even that against the scene, like I've said, it's a rape, but one she knew was going to happen and is willing to put up with in the long game, it all depends on the follow through. |
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on May 20, 2015 10:27:21 GMT -5
It's because those people think that in the context of that world it's hard to call that rape. Well, no, any time there isn't consent it's rape, no matter the time period/setting. In Martin's world (and in the era of Europe he's essentially writing about) it was certainly more accepted and considered acceptable in the context of a marriage-bedding, but it certainly was, is, and continues to be rape. Raping your wife was fairly socially acceptable until quite recently. The whole "Better let him f*** me, because it's gonna be much worse if I don't just go along with it" is still rape, regardless of where and when you live. It's how it's treated by society that has changed |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 20, 2015 10:48:14 GMT -5
Well, no, any time there isn't consent it's rape, no matter the time period/setting. In Martin's world (and in the era of Europe he's essentially writing about) it was certainly more accepted and considered acceptable in the context of a marriage-bedding, but it certainly was, is, and continues to be rape. Raping your wife was fairly socially acceptable until quite recently. The whole "Better let him f*** me, because it's gonna be much worse if I don't just go along with it" is still rape, regardless of where and when you live. It's how it's treated by society that has changed Oh, absolutely aware of that and agree; it's something that's even been in the news within very recent years. In this case I'm simply referring to the "bedding" practice, which is a bit more focused on the particular time Martin is alluding to in his writing. |
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on May 20, 2015 10:50:20 GMT -5
Raping your wife was fairly socially acceptable until quite recently. The whole "Better let him f*** me, because it's gonna be much worse if I don't just go along with it" is still rape, regardless of where and when you live. It's how it's treated by society that has changed Oh, absolutely aware of that and agree; it's something that's even been in the news within very recent years. In this case I'm simply referring to the "bedding" practice, which is a bit more focused on the particular time Martin is alluding to in his writing. Gotcha, I was trying to build on what you said, not contradict so I think we're on the same page here. |
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on May 20, 2015 12:21:31 GMT -5
I've also seen a lot of reviews and feedback somehow say that it wasn't rape. I guess because someone's love of a fictional show means more than a real-life moral compass. I don't know.
I'm not a big critic of the show or the scene but, I'm very wary of anyone who tries to argue that it was anything other than what it was supposed to be.
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Post by Cela on May 20, 2015 12:37:57 GMT -5
You know what, enough of this. Can we appreciate how badly the Sand Snakes suck?  |
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on May 20, 2015 12:40:18 GMT -5
You know what, enough of this. Can we appreciate how badly the Sand Snakes suck? They really are awful. And how is one of them Asian? |
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on May 20, 2015 12:44:24 GMT -5
You know what, enough of this. Can we appreciate how badly the Sand Snakes suck? You know, I realize Arianne Martell didn't do all that much either but, if you're going to cut someone out because they didn't have much of a direction in the books, why cut out the one who's actually been somewhat fleshed out in favor of the group who's only defining traits are that they're female versions of Oberyn Martell? And then, afterwards, making them look even more incompetent than they already are. Left-handed Jaime Lannister is supposed to be a mediocre fighter at best who get lucky fighting a regular Dornish solider, but he holds his own against more than one of Oberyn's daughters? Did I miss an entire episode where Jaime immediately got all of his skills back while He and Bronn were riding to Sunspear? |
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on May 20, 2015 12:58:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't say it's not rape, however it's a contextual issue for me. It would be like watching a Revolutionary War piece and being offended that the Americans used slaves. Yes slavery is bad but it SHOULD be shown to add context to the time period. Really it would have been worse if he hadn't slept with her willingly or not. They addressed that with Tyrion's marriage to her. He was the aberration for not forcing himself on her.
I still hold out hope this is to advance Sansa's transformation into the Stark's Cersei/Littlefinger, but if it is just to advance Theon's character then yeah it was a pointless scene. We get it he's pathetic now.
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Post by Hakumental on May 20, 2015 13:13:11 GMT -5
That fight scene was like something out of Botchamania.
You can just see Vince on set chewing out the Sand Snakes, getting on Jerome's case for overselling, asking Nikolaj if his first name is "Carlito"...
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 20, 2015 13:16:59 GMT -5
You know what, enough of this. Can we appreciate how badly the Sand Snakes suck? You know, I realize Arianne Martell didn't do all that much either but, if you're going to cut someone out because they didn't have much of a direction in the books, why cut out the one who's actually been somewhat fleshed out in favor of the group who's only defining traits are that they're female versions of Oberyn Martell? And then, afterwards, making them look even more incompetent than they already are. Left-handed Jaime Lannister is supposed to be a mediocre fighter at best who get lucky fighting a regular Dornish solider, but he holds his own against more than one of Oberyn's daughters? Did I miss an entire episode where Jaime immediately got all of his skills back while He and Bronn were riding to Sunspear? Thing is, they're not female versions of Oberyn. Oberyn was charming, layered. He was a deadly fighter who'd travelled the world, wrote poetry on his down time and wanted revenge on specific people with direct connections to an event. Anyone not directly involved, be they relatives, or especially children, were innocent and would never be harmed. The Sand Snakes are more "WRAWWWWW VENGENCE, ALL LANNISTERS MUST DIE! WAR!" |
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Post by The Last Hero on May 20, 2015 13:19:52 GMT -5
I've also seen a lot of reviews and feedback somehow say that it wasn't rape. I guess because someone's love of a fictional show means more than a real-life moral compass. I don't know. I'm not a big critic of the show or the scene but, I'm very wary of anyone who tries to argue that it was anything other than what it was supposed to be. I guess I just say I thought it was rape so you're not wary of me. Oh dear. I really dislike your first point though about the real life moral compass. I think most of the people who argue they think it might not have been rape in the context of this world wouldn't have a problem differentiating between real life events and characters in a fictional world. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 13:28:12 GMT -5
From the other perspective, I think for some folks this is just a "last straw" moment when it comes to altering the books to include even more rape/sexual violence, as if the books didn't contain enough. This isn't to say, again, that including rape scenes are bad, but I think the main critique I'm reading is that they should accomplish something, and not be tossed in as what amounts to a narrative crutch to depict a woman in trouble. Season One had them change the Dany/Drogo scene from the book; while the book's depiction was definitely creepy, there was at least more consent shown there than in the show (Khal waiting for Dany to say "yes"). Season Four had the friggin' baffling Jaime-raping-Cersei scene, which accomplished nothing, since the whole point of Jaime's arc at that point is that we're supposed to start, y'know, liking him, and the scene in the book was totally consensual. So yeah, I can imagine this being a "strike three, you're out" thing for some people. I know that a lot of people were upset about the Jaime/Cersei thing and rightly so, but I think that scene (or something similar) was necessary to establish the fact that no, Jaime is not a good guy. Him wandering with Brienne and hanging with Tyrion got him a great deal of sympathy from the audience, he's still the Kingslayer. He's still a turncoat. He's still incestuous. He has principles and he does believe in honor but he's still a monster. What makes Jaime's story compelling is that he's a monster who fights back against his own nature to be a better person. Sometimes he relapses, and the audience needs to know that. On the flip side of that, we get Ramsay. Ramsay is also a monster, but unlike Jaime, he embraces his evil nature. He takes pleasure in humiliating Sansa. There is no passion or romance, just a base lust and a desire to inflict pain and suffering. Jaime has flashes of goodness. Ramsay has flashes of appearing good. But while what Jaime does is sincere, Ramsay only wants to look good to others as a smokescreen for his true self. |
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on May 20, 2015 13:30:22 GMT -5
I've also seen a lot of reviews and feedback somehow say that it wasn't rape. I guess because someone's love of a fictional show means more than a real-life moral compass. I don't know. I'm not a big critic of the show or the scene but, I'm very wary of anyone who tries to argue that it was anything other than what it was supposed to be. I guess I just say I thought it was rape so you're not wary of me. Oh dear. I really dislike your first point though about the real life moral compass. I think most of the people who argue they think it might not have been rape in the context of this world wouldn't have a problem differentiating between real life events and characters in a fictional world. It wasn't yours I was worried about, it's some responses I saw on other reviews and reviews themselves that mentioned they didn't think it was rape because xyz happened and had abc happened, then they would have considered it rape. That sort of comment is what makes me wary. That makes me question someone's priorities. |
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Post by chrom on May 20, 2015 13:30:34 GMT -5
I gotta ask, is there something in the air that makes people in Dorne lose their IQ points?
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Post by Cela on May 20, 2015 13:31:54 GMT -5
You know what, enough of this. Can we appreciate how badly the Sand Snakes suck? They really are awful. And how is one of them Asian? Indian, Maori, Italian, and China/Singapore/Britain. Oberyn got around. |
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