Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,071
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 14, 2015 23:07:07 GMT -5
No, but she has her own undead fighter who holds a sword while the sparrows have clubs. She won't be able to get at the Tyrells but, what do the Sparrows have that can combat Franken-Gregor? The Common Folk. They've clearly sided with the Sparrows against the Crown. Not that I expect anyone to take Franken-Gregor in a fight, but Cersei, logically mind you, can't burn the city she wants to rule to the ground. When she learns about Myrcella and if and when something happens to Tommen, there's absolutely no telling what she'll do. Logic will fly out the window if and when she loses all of her children.
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Post by The Last Hero on Jun 14, 2015 23:10:29 GMT -5
To piggyback on what Chrom said; In the show the North isn't really represented, it's just Bolton and his unnamed minions.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 85,696
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Post by chrom on Jun 14, 2015 23:10:52 GMT -5
Do you get the feeling that they're trying too hard to be dark? I sure do. Selling unrealistic things is part and parcel of fiction, but the overwhelming majority of unrealistic things that define fiction are things designed to satisfy the audience. Unless you have an audience comprised mostly of masochists, selling things that are negative and implausible will go over very badly (Mass Effect 3 may be the best example of this in modern commercial fiction). The Freys and the Boltons are horrible people and just about everyone knows it. How come nobody rises up against them?I think the writers felt like the show had to live up to a reputation of sorts, and turned up the cruelty and misery up as a result, but now it kind of feels like the hook is just "How much shittier can everything be?". You see, even in Martin's books during their bleakest moments, there was still some symbol of hope and things will turn around for the better and eventually those who do evil acts get what's coming to them and pay for what they've done. This, this is basically showing that everything any half decent character does amounts to nothing and they get killed, things are only going to keep on getting worse and worse and people can continue to do heinous and horrible acts and get away with it. I see no reason to continue watching this with the way things are going.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,071
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 14, 2015 23:12:29 GMT -5
Do you get the feeling that they're trying too hard to be dark? I sure do. Selling unrealistic things is part and parcel of fiction, but the overwhelming majority of unrealistic things that define fiction are things designed to satisfy the audience. Unless you have an audience comprised mostly of masochists, selling things that are negative and implausible will go over very badly (Mass Effect 3 may be the best example of this in modern commercial fiction). The Freys and the Boltons are horrible people and just about everyone knows it. How come nobody rises up against them?Because they decided to write out those who did rise up against them in favor of whatever it is that you call The Sand Snakes acting. Oh come on now. How else would we know that Obara has that "bad pussy" without them.
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Post by Raskovnik on Jun 14, 2015 23:22:54 GMT -5
f*** goddamned everything about Ramsay and his writing, book or show. This was also a rough night to be a Stannis fan. Brienne is on my shitlist for (ostensibly) killing two of my favorites. I have no one left that I give a shit about. Jaime, I guess.
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Post by Smokey McTrees on Jun 15, 2015 0:07:24 GMT -5
Snow ain't going anywhere. The Lord Of Light will see to that.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 15, 2015 0:13:27 GMT -5
Beyond that, it's like crimson said; the book reason for the betrayal just worked better as a "this is the last straw" moment, one that could actually be at least somewhat comprehended, even if it was still kind of forced and over the top. I do see some folks saying "I loved the ending, welcome to the real world" or whatever, but it's hard to say the show, at least, is being particularly realistic when Ramsay is goddamned invincible. Do you get the feeling that they're trying too hard to be dark? I sure do. Selling unrealistic things is part and parcel of fiction, but the overwhelming majority of unrealistic things that define fiction are things designed to satisfy the audience. Unless you have an audience comprised mostly of masochists, selling things that are negative and implausible will go over very badly (Mass Effect 3 may be the best example of this in modern commercial fiction). The Freys and the Boltons are horrible people and just about everyone knows it. How come nobody rises up against them?Pretty much. Look, books 4 and 5 were nowhere near as easy to sit through as books 1-3; I admired what Martin was going for with them (mainly Feast for Crows' attempt to give a realistic depiction of what life after a major war is like for the common people), but they have a lot of shortcomings that had to be addressed by the show if they were going to get through them in an entertaining fashion. But this season really left the show feeling like it was just getting lazy in a lot of ways, at least for me. Need more drama for a female character? Throw in some rape that was either not there, mostly implied, or at least not used in a way that actively harmed a character's development arc in the book. A couple of deaths aren't enough for the season finale? Throw in a bunch more. Feel like a subplot needs more spice to it? Toss in a child murder or two. Some characters coming off as potentially too respectable, if not noble? Have them burn their own daughter alive. Haven't had an antagonist who really gets the audience angry the way Joffrey did? Give Ramsay plot armor. A lot of this would be more forgivable if a lot of it didn't involve sacrificing some basic plot logic and character development for the sake of shocking the audience. It reminded me why I don't usually follow many TV series; I get tired of the hook constantly being "Alright boys and girls, who's gonna die THIS week?" Oddly enough, the end of book 5 is kind of what killed my mother's interest in the series when she read it; once Jon was betrayed she just kind of threw her hands up and said "Ok, it's a shitsack world, I GET IT." Yet at least with the books there was largely an internal logic that was at play, even if you could read what happened and say "Ugh, no, this is getting old". Too much of this felt slapdash in an attempt to make things as dark as possible, darker than the book series, which is already about as dark as I'd usually dare imagine a fantasy series to be. And like you say, if we're going to describe this series as "realistic fantasy", then why is it that so many of the horrendous characters wind up coming off as teflon? I mostly get it: a big theme of Martin's is that those who attempt to be honorable and noble usually wind up with their heads impaled on pikes, but where's the balance that felt much more present in the earlier seasons? Regardless, I'm left hoping that the books and show continue to diverge from one another. Honestly, I'd dig it if each wound up going its own way from here more often, leading to two very different endings. I'm not totally banking on that, but I almost feel like it has to happen at this point.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 15, 2015 0:38:09 GMT -5
If it makes anyone feel better, the Freys are getting systematically killed one by one in the books since the Red Wedding, either by vengeful Northern lords or the Brotherhood Without Banners and Lady Stoneheart. They don't show that at all in the show, but it's not been very good for them.
Honestly, while I do think A Dance With Dragons is the weakest book of the series, I think A Feast For Crows is underrated if anything. I really enjoyed it. The show this season feels more like it cared about ~~~CONTROVERSY~~~ than actually telling a good story.
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Post by Cela on Jun 15, 2015 0:39:50 GMT -5
No, but she has her own undead fighter who holds a sword while the sparrows have clubs. She won't be able to get at the Tyrells but, what do the Sparrows have that can combat Franken-Gregor? The Common Folk. They've clearly sided with the Sparrows against the Crown. Not that I expect anyone to take Franken-Gregor in a fight, but Cersei, logically mind you, can't burn the city she wants to rule to the ground. Yeah, that last face we saw of hers totally wasn't planning to murder every last person who spat on her.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,071
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 15, 2015 1:14:16 GMT -5
If it makes anyone feel better, the Freys are getting systematically killed one by one in the books since the Red Wedding, either by vengeful Northern lords or the Brotherhood Without Banners and Lady Stoneheart. They don't show that at all in the show, but it's not been very good for them. Honestly, while I do think A Dance With Dragons is the weakest book of the series, I think A Feast For Crows is underrated if anything. I really enjoyed it. The show this season feels more like it cared about ~~~CONTROVERSY~~~ than actually telling a good story. I've been saying for a while that while it may not have been the most violent or graphic of the books, A Feast For Crows actually had some of the best writing of the entire series. Specifically, Septon Meribald's speech to Brienne, Hyle Hunt, and Poderick Payne about the Hound and "Broken Men" who become monsters after facing war. And even though it probably wouldn't have made for the best television, I felt that Jaime's story in the Riverlands in that book is the best character study in the series outside of Theon's in A Dance with Dragons. It's not my favorite book in the series(A Storm of Swords takes that title) but I thoroughly enjoyed it nonetheless.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jun 15, 2015 3:03:12 GMT -5
So, everything seemed so rushed, why was Cersei's scene 4 hours long?
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 15, 2015 3:11:28 GMT -5
Wow. What a gutwrenching episode on multiple counts. Does anyone else think that (major spoilers below) {Spoiler}Lady Stoneheart is going to give her immortality to revive Jon? It would be a good full-circle way to wrap up Catelyn's character arc. If she's convinced that he is the only thing that can save Westeros and protect her remaining children, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,071
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 15, 2015 3:16:41 GMT -5
Wow. What a gutwrenching episode on multiple counts. Does anyone else think that (major spoilers below) {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Lady Stoneheart is going to give her immortality to revive Jon? It would be a good full-circle way to wrap up Catelyn's character arc. If she's convinced that he is the only thing that can save Westeros and protect her remaining children, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}In the books? Probably not considering Jon's at the Wall, and Lady Stoneheart is in the Riverlands waiting for Brienne to bring Jaime back to face her justice. At least, that's what the cliffhanger from Jaime's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons seems to imply.
In the show? I'm sorry to say, I think there will be no Lady Stoneheart in the show.
If Jon is to return, it will be due to Melisandre's magic. There's no reason to believe she doesn't have the same abilities to revive people that Beric Dondarrion used to revive Catelyn or Thoros of Myr used to revive Beric as many times as he did.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 15, 2015 3:17:40 GMT -5
Wow. What a gutwrenching episode on multiple counts. Does anyone else think that (major spoilers below) {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Lady Stoneheart is going to give her immortality to revive Jon? It would be a good full-circle way to wrap up Catelyn's character arc. If she's convinced that he is the only thing that can save Westeros and protect her remaining children, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. In the books? Probably not considering Jon's at the Wall, and Lady Stoneheart is in the Riverlands waiting for Brienne to bring Jaime back to face her justice. At least, that's what the cliffhanger from Jaime's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons seems to be leading to.
In the show? I'm sorry to say, I think there will be no Lady Stoneheart in the show. Yeah, I meant the show. I know it's not the way things are going down in the book. It just seems like a rather large thing for the HBO version to omit.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,071
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 15, 2015 3:35:09 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}In the books? Probably not considering Jon's at the Wall, and Lady Stoneheart is in the Riverlands waiting for Brienne to bring Jaime back to face her justice. At least, that's what the cliffhanger from Jaime's last chapter in A Dance with Dragons seems to be leading to.
In the show? I'm sorry to say, I think there will be no Lady Stoneheart in the show. Yeah, I meant the show. I know it's not the way things are going down in the book. It just seems like a rather large thing for the HBO version to omit. They had a few prime opportunities to bring that up in the show and they didn't. Doing it after tonight would seem like an ass pull.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Jun 15, 2015 6:00:34 GMT -5
My reactions throughout the episode: Seems a bit weird that "half the men" would desert during the night without anyone noticing. Although I guess that can be forgiven for the sake of the plot. And boy, Stannis really did switch quickly from "I would never do anything to harm my family even if it means losing a tactical advantage" to "I don't care about anything that happens to my family as long as I still have a tactical advantage and will not show even a hint of remorse or any emotion when they die", huh? One might even say there is no justification for that change. Great character development. And for generations, they shall sing the song of "The Battle-Not-Appearing-In-This-Show". Especially weak after Hardhome. ... aaand with that anticlamactic death, Stannis' whole subplot is now rendered entirely pointless. *sigh* Well, at least Brienne finally got to do something other than reminding us that she and Podrick still exist this season. AND WHY ISN'T MELISANDRE DEAD YET?! Wait, I don't get it, are they saying that Ramsay is evil? ![O_o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/browraise.png) ... I can't believe I'm saying this but... f*** yeah, Theon! ... aaaand now Sansa's story is rendered pointless. Doing really well on the pointlessness, this season. To think last season built her up to be a major player and possibly become corrupted by Littlefinger's influence and THIS is is how they end the character... again, weak. Hurray! Finally some kind of payoff to Arya's storyline! Gotta say, seeing her kill Meryn was very satisfying. Although it does feel like the only reason he was still alive was so Arya could get revenge over him. The following scene with Jaqen was pretty cool too. Oh hey! Varis eventually did notice that Tyrion was gone. Clearly Daenerys needs to earn some more gym badges if she wants Drogon to listen to her. Man, Cersei went through the most literal case of slut shaming I've ever seen. My God... The Mountain became Blaster Master! Wha... What the f***?! WHAT THE F***?! WHAT THE F***ITTY F***ITTY F***?!! Overall a pretty bad episode with a couple highlights, which conveniently also sums up the season as a whole. The big problem was pacing, which was really awkward. It's like they spent so much time not really doing anything for most of the season that they had to cram every single plot resolution into one episode and couldn't spend much time on any of them, quickly and jarringly cutting from one to the next. Like I said before, it would have worked a lot better had they focused on one storyline at a time with a few bits of other ones here and there. For example, Arya and Sansa's respective storylines could easily have concluded several episodes earlier, especially Arya's, we didn't need this many scenes of her wiping floors. Cersei's also could have ended one or two episodes ago; again, we didn't need so many scenes of her doing the same thing over and over again (in her case, being told to confess and swearing revenge). And then you have those that pretty much went nowhere like Jaime and Bronn's adventures in Dorne. Seems like rhe only reason that happened was so Jaime couldn't be here when Cersei was arrested. Add to this some frankly baffling decisions in terms of character "development", some of which were frankly Russo-esque in their nonsensical, barely foreshadowed turns as well as some occasionally downright bad directing and this was a really poor season except for like two or three episodes. I hope it at least set things up for a stronger Season 6 but with the way this one ended, I don't really see that happening.
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on Jun 15, 2015 6:27:53 GMT -5
Apparently Lena Headey had her face digitized on to a body double.
Really good episode. I hope this isn't the end for Jon.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Jun 15, 2015 6:37:43 GMT -5
So come Season 6, I'm expecting Cersei Lannister to have a complete mental breakdown considering Myrcella bit the bullet. Unless Mace Tyrell fully wooed the Iron Banks, she'll neither have the funds nor the manpower to launch a war against the Sparrows and then Dorne. Even with lesser funds or manpower, I could see her becoming the next main villain, snapping to the point of going full-Aerys and starting a gruesome civil war against the Sparrows and killing anyone who opposes her. I could even see her blame Jaime for Myrcella's death and have him executed. Think about the Night's King: 1. He cares about his people. 2. He kills people, sure, but he gives them second life. 3. His people believe him in. So yeah, Night's King for the Iron Throne. F*** it. We all expected that those babies from Craster's Keep would wind up being eaten or become a wall decoration by them, turns out they adopt them into their society and they come off as more humane than 99% of those in Westeros. You know what? You guys raise some good points. Plus you don't see him burning children alive. I think I'll join House Night's King as well. WE WANT NIGHT'S KING! *Clap! Clap! Clap clap clap!* (although I never thought they ate the babies, if only becomes they don't seem to need to eat period. I always assumed turning people was how they create more of themselves)
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jun 15, 2015 6:46:48 GMT -5
The acting credits for that Cersei scene were probably 'Dick Shaker #2' and 'Titty Shaker #1'.
Get that SAG card, folks.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jun 15, 2015 6:58:20 GMT -5
Oh, forgot to mention: opne of my friends legit called out "450 SPLASH" when Myranda flew off the balcony
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