Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 23, 2017 12:39:02 GMT -5
I wonder if it’s just for the Justice League movie, or from that section of the DCEU altogether? Hopefully it's DC altogether. His obsession with grimdark is dated and not what audiences want to watch.
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Post by burdette25159 on Sept 23, 2017 13:49:19 GMT -5
Reports are stating in the latest cut another side character was removed completely. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Iris West has been cut, joining Zucker-luthor on the cutting room floor {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler} I guess we're going to have to settle for DC animated Iris West as voiced by Jennifer hale for the forseeable future.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 23, 2017 13:52:48 GMT -5
I wonder if it’s just for the Justice League movie, or from that section of the DCEU altogether? Hopefully it's DC altogether. His obsession with grimdark is dated and not what audiences want to watch. I was under the impression he had already lost most of his control over the DCEU, they were just letting him finish JL because he was so far into it already
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Sept 23, 2017 14:31:36 GMT -5
I know I sound like a broken record when it comes to Zack Snyder. But I truly feel bad for him in this situation simply because I do believe his heart, mind, and soul was in the right place and wasn't trying to make a bad film. He obviously went with the grim dark aspect because that's what was making money at the time. While I do believe a lot of the flack he received was due to Anti-DC/Pro-Marvel mindset, he definitely doesn't deserve as much hate as he's received in my opinion. When virtually every critic review that pertained to BvS started off with "I knew I wouldn't like it because it's not Marvel" and those lines reverberated across the board you can't help but think that maybe, just maybe some critics were paid off to give a negative review. Honestly I say keep him for his visual eye and action, while having Geoff Johns write and produce the films. You don't get someone like Snyder with a great visual eye for cinematics and action so I say keep him.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 23, 2017 14:32:01 GMT -5
I wonder if it’s just for the Justice League movie, or from that section of the DCEU altogether? Hopefully it's DC altogether. His obsession with grimdark is dated and not what audiences want to watch. I wouldn't even say that "dark" in and of itself was his main issue; I think people are willing to accept a whole range of tones for even comic book films, so long as the films are done well in terms of character, narrative, etc. For me he had too many inconsistencies in how he wanted to present his characters, almost attempting to make them everything at once instead of really settling on a characterization; for example, we can't really figure out at a certain point what motivates Superman, or why he cooperates with other people and agencies like the government at times and then basically says he's going his own way at another moment, which would be one thing if it was about his dual natures being in conflict but we don't really get that, either. Heck, can't ignore that any character growth he might've gotten out of Man of Steel was pretty much tossed aside as if it hadn't happened by the time Batman/Superman came out. It's like he wanted to make an Objectivist Superman but still felt he had to throw in moments of the Altruistic Superman most people are familiar with instead of committing to one vision or another, which leaves the characterization a jumbled, confused mess.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 23, 2017 14:42:19 GMT -5
I'd like to see one example of a critic's review that said they knew they wouldn't like it because it wasn't Marvel.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Sept 23, 2017 15:04:44 GMT -5
I'd like to see one example of a critic's review that said they knew they wouldn't like it because it wasn't Marvel. I am in the process of googling them now actually. I remember one review very vividly stating "It's not Marvel so I was prepared to not like it and I was right." I just can't remember who did the review though. There were a lot of Anti-DC/Pro Marvel articles when BvS and Suicide Squad were released. There were even a lot of hate articles during the production of Wonder Woman. That lets me know at least that while there may not be a huge conspiracy, there are definitely a few critics who may've been paid off to give negative reviews in order to help Marvel/Disney in the long run.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 23, 2017 15:12:51 GMT -5
You said virtually every review though.
And the idea that Marvel-Disney would need to buy reviews is ludicrous to me.
Could some reviewers have some weird anti DC bias of their own accord? Sure, I'll concede that. But to think that Disney would have to do that seems silly, and to think that biased reviewers had any real measurable effect on opinions at large, when pre Wonder Woman the movies were legitimately bad seems sillier still.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 23, 2017 15:34:44 GMT -5
I'm a huge DC fan, read a tonne of DC books each month and read 1 or 2 Marvel titles each month now, and I can say without a doubt that I feel that other then maybe Thor 2, every single MCU movie has been better then all 3 pre-Wonder Woman DCEU movies. It's not a anti-DC bias, it's an anti shitty movie bias.
The reason Wonder Woman worked, is because it stayed true to the character while telling a coherent story. The reason Marvel movies work, is because they stay true to the characters while telling a coherent story. When I watched Wonder Woman, that's how I envisioned Wonder Woman in my head reading comics. When I watched Captain America, that's how I envisioned him in my head. Same for Iron Man, Spider-Man etc. But when I watched Man of Steel? That is not the Superman I envisioned in my head the past 25 years of reading Superman. Batman was closer, but still not right either. The problem isn't Marvel vs DC bias, it's that one company is taking a character from the page and making it work on the screen and the other is taking names from a comic book and putting them on the characters the wrote in a movie whether it makes sense or not.
You can make changes, you can take liberties with characters, but at the end of the day if the character doesn't feel like the character they're supposed to be then what's the point?
EDIT: Hell, even if you completely change the character your average critic isn't going to care as long as you make a logical, coherent movie. Which, until Wonder Woman, DC/WB failed miserably at
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Sept 23, 2017 15:41:32 GMT -5
I'm a huge DC fan, read a tonne of DC books each month and read 1 or 2 Marvel titles each month now, and I can say without a doubt that I feel that other then maybe Thor 2, every single MCU movie has been better then all 3 pre-Wonder Woman DCEU moviesMOS...BVS...Am I forgetting one?
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Sept 23, 2017 15:43:07 GMT -5
I'm a huge DC fan, read a tonne of DC books each month and read 1 or 2 Marvel titles each month now, and I can say without a doubt that I feel that other then maybe Thor 2, every single MCU movie has been better then all 3 pre-Wonder Woman DCEU moviesMOS...BVS...Am I forgetting one? Suicide Squad
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Sept 23, 2017 15:43:33 GMT -5
MOS...BVS...Am I forgetting one? Suicide Squad Holy shit, that's sad.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 16:07:30 GMT -5
Reports are stating in the latest cut another side character was removed completely. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Iris West has been cut, joining Zucker-luthor on the cutting room floor TIL that character was gonna be in this movie... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 23, 2017 17:42:13 GMT -5
Hopefully it's DC altogether. His obsession with grimdark is dated and not what audiences want to watch. I wouldn't even say that "dark" in and of itself was his main issue; I think people are willing to accept a whole range of tones for even comic book films, so long as the films are done well in terms of character, narrative, etc. For me he had too many inconsistencies in how he wanted to present his characters, almost attempting to make them everything at once instead of really settling on a characterization; for example, we can't really figure out at a certain point what motivates Superman, or why he cooperates with other people and agencies like the government at times and then basically says he's going his own way at another moment, which would be one thing if it was about his dual natures being in conflict but we don't really get that, either. Heck, can't ignore that any character growth he might've gotten out of Man of Steel was pretty much tossed aside as if it hadn't happened by the time Batman/Superman came out. It's like he wanted to make an Objectivist Superman but still felt he had to throw in moments of the Altruistic Superman most people are familiar with instead of committing to one vision or another, which leaves the characterization a jumbled, confused mess. He even failed at basic storytelling and consistent characterization in the same movie. All the talk in Man of Steel that Zod was genetically engineered to be a soldier and Clark clearly has no chance against him is undermined within the first 30 minutes when Jor-El the genetically engineered scientist kicks his ass. and well EVERYTHING Zod does in Man of Steel makes no sense and actively goes against his motivations to bring Krypton back so he can make it a Military Power. 1. In the Man of Steel they decided that just having it be the sun was stupid and had it literally be the atmosphere... for reasons. So changing Earth to be like Krypton has him literally give up an unstoppable army of Supermen. Instead of just calling it New Krypton. 2. if they MUST make a new Krypton... the great tactician decided to do it on the ONLY planet where anyone could possibly resist him. 3. The Great Tactician (we are told he is one multiple times) brings the only mission critical piece of equipment to the middle of a warzone. Instead of stashing it somewhere safe like space since it's a spaceship. there's more but I don't really feel like listing all of them right now. Zack Snyder is pretty bad as a film maker... and I do believe he likes the subject matter it's just that he doesn't understand like any of the stuff he read. It was obvious with Watchmen when he removed all the subtlety of the book made Ozy pretty blatantly a bad guy, and changed the ending. It was obvious when he added an unnecessary scene in 300 that goes against the entire narrative that it's a story told by Dilios It was an honest with well literally everything he talked about the Dark Knight Returns including scenes that weren't in the book... and well like a lot of people misread in it... Batman DID NOT SINGLE-HANDEDLY BEAT Superman in it... hell I'd be hard pressed to say Batman beat him period. Batman had Robin, Green Arrow, and Robot Bat-tanks taking pot shots at him. Superman was recovering from taking a Nuke to the face before the fight even happened... and most importantly SUPERMAN DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT BATMAN. Miller made that abundantly clear, Superman was given multiple opportunities in both the fight and the lead up to it to just murder Bruce. But he didn't. Miller generally doesn't understand Superman and flat out stated he didn't like him but he got that bit about him right in the original DKR.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Sept 23, 2017 17:43:25 GMT -5
Reports are stating in the latest cut another side character was removed completely. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Iris West has been cut, joining Zucker-luthor on the cutting room floor TIL that character was gonna be in this movie... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The actress was apparently all excited to be in it.. but there are a ton of Side characters announced for JL making me think it's going to be a bloated mess unless they are literally only in it for a blink and you miss it cameo.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 23, 2017 18:20:20 GMT -5
I know I sound like a broken record when it comes to Zack Snyder. But I truly feel bad for him in this situation simply because I do believe his heart, mind, and soul was in the right place and wasn't trying to make a bad film. I definitely feel sorry for him, because he clearly has tried his hardest to earnestly make the best movies possible, but at the same time it was a simple case of him not being up to the task. There’s no shame in that, but it doesn’t excuse his work and his decisions from criticism. Do people go to far and criticise him personally? Sure. I’ve even done it myself, but that’s what happens when fans are disappointed when something they’re passionate about doesn’t live up to their expectations.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
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Post by Jiren on Sept 23, 2017 21:01:18 GMT -5
You're lucky, I wish I could forget that POS
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Post by cabbageboy on Sept 23, 2017 22:58:48 GMT -5
Just watched Wonder Woman again tonight and it's still an overall solid flick. The thing is, I tend to wonder if it will be the exception. It isn't really part of any big picture DC Universe (other than the trivial framing device of her writing Bruce Wayne over the picture). It's an origin tale and WWI movie. The dilemma DC has here is that they wanted the big payoffs without doing any ground work to set any of it up. It's like they want their big Batman/Superman fight, Doomsday "Death of Superman" story, and Justice League and they want it all RIGHT NOW. Think about the goofiness of Suicide Squad. We had B grade Flash villains like Captain Boomerang in it, yet we haven't even had an actual Flash movie! There has been no Aquaman or Cyborg movie to set up their participation in JL and I still think Jason Momoa is horribly cast.
With all of that said, there's something kind of interesting about these various DC trainwrecks. Say what you will about BvS, but Snyder was trying to do something really crazy and interesting. He was trying to do something different. It didn't really succeed, but I am getting increasingly weary of Marvel's phoned movies where the status quo must be maintained. Lord knows we can't just kill off the increasingly irrelevant Jim Rhodes or anything, since 12 people might buy a War Machine toy. The DC movies feel as though there's no overarching direction going on. Batman is a total burn out, homicidal Punisher style antihero in BvS, yet in Suicide Squad (released the same year) he was basically back to being regular Batman and revived Harley Quinn, peacefully got Deadshot to turn himself in, etc. A vicious, borderline psycho Batman is actually a pretty interesting direction, but BvS does nothing to set this up. The only semi nod to this is Bruce staring at the Robin costume that had been defaced by The Joker, in what I can only assume was some reference to Jason Todd's death....except we've never seen Jason Todd in a film.
DC is just so bizarre. Marvel's stuff has a tight continuity between films, network TV, and the Netflix shows. DC stuff is just gonzo, with zero continuity between feature films, even less with the various TV shows, etc. It doesn't seem like anyone in really in charge of anything at Warner Bros. with DC stuff, though I guess Geoff Johns is now. On one hand you get wildly chaotic and varying quality, but there's at least different vibes to each of these DC movies, rather than the homogenized and samey Marvel stuff.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
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Post by Renslayer on Oct 4, 2017 12:11:02 GMT -5
New trailer is coming out on Sunday.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Oct 4, 2017 22:18:16 GMT -5
I hope the trailer is just a short one and doesn't reveal anything else. The teaser trailer and the Comic-Con trailer are perfect and didn't reveal too much. Ideally those should be the only trailers released. I also hope they don't spoil Superman either.
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