Han Solo (2018)

[Fade]

Jun 21, 2017 0:34:04 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

It's, once again, another case of movie studios hiring people who were successful for being ultra creative then being shocked they're ultra creative.

It's ridiculous that we have to go through this song and dance with big productions like this every few months, justified or not.

I really thought this stopped once "Fandom" kinda took over..like early 2000s ya still had crap like Elektra, Catwoman, Daredevil, X3, and FF2 where it was clear studios were getting in the way. But it continues on with AOU, Suicide Squad, re-shoots for Rogue One and now the Han Solo Project. I'm assuming sometimes the studios are right, but damn, let the directors live or die by their sword.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jun 21, 2017 0:57:06 GMT -5 Fade said:

Jun 21, 2017 0:34:04 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

It's, once again, another case of movie studios hiring people who were successful for being ultra creative then being shocked they're ultra creative.

It's ridiculous that we have to go through this song and dance with big productions like this every few months, justified or not.

I really thought this stopped once "Fandom" kinda took over..like early 2000s ya still had crap like Elektra, Catwoman, Daredevil, X3, and FF2 where it was clear studios were getting in the way. But it continues on with AOU, Suicide Squad, re-shoots for Rogue One and now the Han Solo Project. I'm assuming sometimes the studios are right, but damn, let the directors live or die by their sword.

Like, yeah, if it's like the Fantasic Four reboot, Fox was right to jump in because Josh Trank was making it an unfriendly environment and was going crazily over budget at times so it made sense but then that also goes on management for hiring him in the first place when that track record was out there.

But if Disney hired Lord and Miller off of the success of The Lego Movie and 21/22 Jump Street and were shocked about their approach to filmmaking on set, that's like hiring a new lead chef for a successful resteraunt and being shocked about their approach being like their other successful resteraunts. They have their way, you must have known they have their way, so you can't act like you're in the right when you fire them for doing it that way.

[Fade]

Jun 21, 2017 1:06:53 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jun 21, 2017 0:57:06 GMT -5 Fade said:

I really thought this stopped once "Fandom" kinda took over..like early 2000s ya still had crap like Elektra, Catwoman, Daredevil, X3, and FF2 where it was clear studios were getting in the way. But it continues on with AOU, Suicide Squad, re-shoots for Rogue One and now the Han Solo Project. I'm assuming sometimes the studios are right, but damn, let the directors live or die by their sword.

Like, yeah, if it's like the Fantasic Four reboot, Fox was right to jump in because Josh Trank was making it an unfriendly environment and was going crazily over budget at times so it made sense but then that also goes on management for hiring him in the first place when that track record was out there.

But if Disney hired Lord and Miller off of the success of The Lego Movie and 21/22 Jump Street and were shocked about their approach to filmmaking on set, that's like hiring a new lead chef for a successful resteraunt and being shocked about their approach being like their other successful resteraunts. They have their way, you must have known they have their way, so you can't act like you're in the right when you fire them for doing it that way.

Yeah, I agree. The studio approach hasn't dissolved, it still thinks it's above the fandom. Marvel, Disney, Sony have all showed signs of this. I still have high hopes for the Solo flick, mainly because of the cast, but it might end up like an "Ant-Man" in terms of what the original vision could have been.

[Feargus McReddit]

I now have memories of Genndy Tartakovsky's Popeye movie being dropped due to creative control.

I mean, it lead to new Samurai Jack and a resolution to that series when nobody thought that ever happened but GODDAMNIT Sony! That footage was the best thing and it wasn't even what the finished thing would have looked like!

Gah! Stupid studios.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, when accepting a job contributing to something like a Star Wars universe it's a given that there will be strict guidelines about how certain things are going to be done, lest you end up with the aforementioned EU situation where continuity becomes a complete mess. The fact that this is a prequel featuring beloved characters with very defined character traits adds a whole new layer to those guidelines.

By most accounts there was plenty of wiggle room in the making of Force Awakens and Rogue One, with the producers stepping in at certain points to adjust things when they felt it necessary. Perhaps in this case Lord and Miller ultimately felt they didn't have enough wiggle room and chose that hill to die on, or perhaps they were afforded a little too much and the producers didn't like how far away from the overall vision they'd strayed.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jun 21, 2017 1:48:40 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

To play devil's advocate for a moment, when accepting a job contributing to something like a Star Wars universe it's a given that there will be strict guidelines about how certain things are going to be done, lest you end up with the aforementioned EU situation where continuity becomes a complete mess. The fact that this is a prequel featuring beloved characters with very defined character traits adds a whole new layer to those guidelines.

By most accounts there was plenty of wiggle room in the making of Force Awakens and Rogue One, with the producers stepping in at certain points to adjust things when they felt it necessary. Perhaps in this case Lord and Miller ultimately felt they didn't have enough wiggle room and chose that hill to die on, or perhaps they were afforded a little too much and the producers didn't like how far away from the overall vision they'd strayed.

Oh, of course. But it didn't seem like, from the statement anyway, that factored massively into negotiations and if it did, both sides did a bad job at making that clear.

Again, you don't hire Lord and Miller and then be shocked when they're Lord and Miller. You get someone in whose good at performing their job but doesn't intend stray too much from your vision.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Jun 21, 2017 1:53:11 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jun 21, 2017 1:48:40 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

To play devil's advocate for a moment, when accepting a job contributing to something like a Star Wars universe it's a given that there will be strict guidelines about how certain things are going to be done, lest you end up with the aforementioned EU situation where continuity becomes a complete mess. The fact that this is a prequel featuring beloved characters with very defined character traits adds a whole new layer to those guidelines.

By most accounts there was plenty of wiggle room in the making of Force Awakens and Rogue One, with the producers stepping in at certain points to adjust things when they felt it necessary. Perhaps in this case Lord and Miller ultimately felt they didn't have enough wiggle room and chose that hill to die on, or perhaps they were afforded a little too much and the producers didn't like how far away from the overall vision they'd strayed.

Oh, of course. But it didn't seem like, from the statement anyway, that factored massively into negotiations and if it did, both sides did a bad job at making that clear.

Again, you don't hire Lord and Miller and then be shocked when they're Lord and Miller. You get someone in whose good at performing their job but doesn't intend stray too much from your vision.

Assuming that was even the problem to begin with, of course. Creative differences is such a vague term that could mean anything from the producers having a very strong vision that conflicts with the directors, to the directors having all the freedom they want but feeling like they don't have enough time and/or money to fully realise their vision and walking away.

[Feargus McReddit]

Creative differences is a term that is often used loosely when a director is fired from a Hollywood movie.

But it actually appears to ring true in case of Phil Lord and Christopher Miller, who have been let go by Lucasfilm chief Kathleen Kennedy from directing the Star Wars spinoff that centers on the fan-favorite character Han Solo.

Sources tell The Hollywood Reporter that the style and vision of Lord and Miller clashed with that of Lawrence Kasdan, the legendary screenwriter behind the classics Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark, who also wrote, with his son, Jon Kasdan, the script for the Han Solo stand-alone set (for now) to be released in 2018.

Lord and Miller (21 Jump Street, The Lego Movie) have a comedic sensibility and improvisational style while Kasdan favors a strict adherence to the written word — what is on the page is what must be shot.

The creative clash, according to one insider, also came down to differences in understanding the character of Han Solo. “People need to understand that Han Solo is not a comedic personality. He’s sarcastic and selfish,” said that source.

The friction was felt almost immediately when the movie began shooting in February, sources say, but the directors always thought it could be worked through. Kennedy, the producer and head of Lucasfilm, decided to back her lifelong colleague, who shaped much of Solo’s character in Empire and Return of the Jedi and who had a specific tone in mind for the new movie. The duo also didn’t feel they had the support of producer Allison Shearmur, who was acting as Lucasfilm’s representative on the London set.

Lord and Miller, who had relocated to London with their families for preproduction and production of the movie, were said to have been blindsided by the firing, which they learned about Monday, according to one source, although another disputed that account.

The production had gone on a short hiatus to review what had been shot and to clear the air.

"Unfortunately, our vision and process weren’t aligned with our partners on this project. We normally aren’t fans of the phrase 'creative differences' but for once this cliché is true. We are really proud of the amazing and world-class work of our cast and crew," Lord and Miller said in a statement released Tuesday.

Lucasfilm and owner Disney have already targeted their replacement, although the companies are keeping mum.

Ron Howard is one of the names that has emerged, according to sources. Joe Johnston, who directed The Rocketeer and Jumanji, has been mentioned as another possible candidate. Others suggest that Kasdan, who has directed movies like The Big Chill and Silverado, could step in as he is already in prime position to know what needs to be fixed. That move could be complicated by DGA rules preventing someone already working on a film taking over for a director that is being replaced except for a short-term emergency.

It is expected that a new director will take the next several weeks, with the production shut down, to go over what Lord and Miller have shot, re-edit what they’ve filmed “and go from there,” according to one source.

According to some observers, Lucasfilm should have known going in that a clash of tones could occur given Lord and Miller's previous work. But this is not the first time that Disney and Lucasfilm have had to take drastic turns on Star Wars movies. Last summer, the companies sidelined Gareth Edwards by bringing in Tony Gilroy to rewrite and direct substantial reshoots of Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, a move that happened only five to six months before the movie was released. Rogue One proved to be a massive hit, both financially and critically.

The studio now is more than willing to flex its muscle, and spend chunks of money, to protect the Star Wars brand and to ensure that it is not tarnished by a movie that doesn't deliver what fans want.

Lord and Miller's next move is not immediately clear, but already rumors are circulating that the pair could return to The Flash, Warners' movie about the DC Comics hero to which they had been attached to helm several years ago. The project is currently on the hunt for a director.

- Hollywood Reporter

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Okay, that really does seem like a fault with the initial hiring. Not saying directors known for comedy can't do more serious movies (the Russos are a good example) but clearly that was a square peg, round hole situation.

Joe Johnston would be my pick. I love Rocketeer and First Avenger, and have fond memories of Jumanji.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

So, what I'm getting from those stories is that Kasdan didn't like that Lord and Miller were straying too far from the original vision and Lucasfilm had to choose between faith in their Lord and Miller's process, or loyalty to Kasdan and the respect for the fact that he's considered by most to be the authority on the Han Solo character. That makes more sense.


That said, if Lord and Miller were drifting off the beaten path so much, why did you keep them around as long as you did during filming? This is a major project. You can't just sit back and simply hope for the best. You have to know for certain how you want to move forward with a film like this before filming.


Weird. I've been a fan of how things have gone since the Disney sale but, this is the first decision that's really making me scratch my head.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

Jun 21, 2017 0:34:57 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 20, 2017 22:19:31 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

See also, Edgar Wright and AntMan

Disney is very serious about staying on-brand. And rightfully so. But it easily clashes with directors who want to actually direct in their own style. I think Disney just likes having "auteur" directors for the "creative street cred" but doesn't actually want their creative voice.

It probably also has a lot to do with working within a shared universe like Star Wars where so many things have to stay consistent and cohesive not just in the movies, but in supplementary material.

They're erring on the side of caution, I think, because they don't want things to end up like the Legends EU did where you had a lot of different conflicting stories and characters having wildly different personalities depending on the medium. It ultimately means less adventurous movies but then outside of VFX work, Star Wars has never exactly been avant garde film-making to begin with.

Though for all the noise about Disney interfering with Rogue One to make it a "light-hearted adventure," it turned out to be all junk as that was probably the bleakest Star Wars movie ever made.

A lot was changed in the Rogue One reshoots but, not to make it lighter. If anything, the reshoots made the movie darker because initially, the first cut was going to have quite a few of the main characters survive and the Darth Vader one-man show at the end of the movie would have never happened. Gareth Edwards and his crew weren't sure that Lucasfilm and Disney would be okay with all the heroes dying and when they brought it to the higher-ups attention, they encouraged them to make it as bleak as they wanted to. Kathleen Kennedy was the one that personally encouraged Gareth Edwards to shoot the Vader hell house scene for the final cut.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jun 21, 2017 6:27:05 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

So, what I'm getting from those stories is that Kasdan didn't like that Lord and Miller were straying too far from the original vision and Lucasfilm had to choose between faith in their Lord and Miller's process, or loyalty to Kasdan and the respect for the fact that he's considered by most to be the authority on the Han Solo character. That makes more sense.


That said, if Lord and Miller were drifting off the beaten path so much, why did you keep them around as long as you did during filming? This is a major project. You can't just sit back and simply hope for the best. You have to know for certain how you want to move forward with a film like this before filming.


Weird. I've been a fan of how things have gone since the Disney sale but, this is the first decision that's really making me scratch my head.

It feels like both sides have their blames because, like you said, this is a major project and if you aren't clear about what the film is going to be from the offset, unless you find someone to replace said director(s) as soon as possible, any time you get rid of them will make you look bad, especially being so far into the project.

Every time one of these stories comes up, I just wonder how they happen considering the money thrown around and the experience on top is years beyond the smallest productions.

[A Platypus Rave is Correct]

deadline.com/2017/06/ron-howard-han-solo-star-wars-movie-replace-phil-lord-christopher-miller-directors-1202117289/?ICID=ref_fark

Ron Howard is apparently #1 on the short list to replace.

Of course this just means the filmmakers want him not if he's at all interested in doing it.

[The Captain]

Jun 21, 2017 6:31:27 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

Jun 21, 2017 0:34:57 GMT -5 The Captain said:

It probably also has a lot to do with working within a shared universe like Star Wars where so many things have to stay consistent and cohesive not just in the movies, but in supplementary material.

They're erring on the side of caution, I think, because they don't want things to end up like the Legends EU did where you had a lot of different conflicting stories and characters having wildly different personalities depending on the medium. It ultimately means less adventurous movies but then outside of VFX work, Star Wars has never exactly been avant garde film-making to begin with.

Though for all the noise about Disney interfering with Rogue One to make it a "light-hearted adventure," it turned out to be all junk as that was probably the bleakest Star Wars movie ever made.

A lot was changed in the Rogue One reshoots but, not to make it lighter. If anything, the reshoots made the movie darker because initially, the first cut was going to have quite a few of the main characters survive and the Darth Vader one-man show at the end of the movie would have never happened. Gareth Edwards and his crew weren't sure that Lucasfilm and Disney would be okay with all the heroes dying and when they brought it to the higher-ups attention, they encouraged them to make it as bleak as they wanted to. Kathleen Kennedy was the one that personally encouraged Gareth Edwards to shoot the Vader hell house scene for the final cut.

Yeah, from all accounts Edwards was allowed to do a lot of what he did and the reshoots, if anything, were Lucasfilm and Kennedy giving him the thumbs up to go all out in making it like he wanted to.

So for Lord and Miller to leave the project due to "creative differences" with LucasFilm means they must've done something that really didn't gel with the Star Wars universe. And if the choice was between them and Larry Kasdan, it makes sense they chose Kasdan, who is widely loved by both the company and a majority of Star Wars fans. And from the sounds of backstage stuff, it was probably for the best because it sounded like Lord and Miller didn't really "get" the Han Solo character. But then why hire them in the first place?

[Chainsaw]

Jun 21, 2017 0:57:06 GMT -5 Fade said:

Jun 21, 2017 0:34:04 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

It's, once again, another case of movie studios hiring people who were successful for being ultra creative then being shocked they're ultra creative.

It's ridiculous that we have to go through this song and dance with big productions like this every few months, justified or not.

I really thought this stopped once "Fandom" kinda took over..like early 2000s ya still had crap like Elektra, Catwoman, Daredevil, X3, and FF2 where it was clear studios were getting in the way. But it continues on with AOU, Suicide Squad, re-shoots for Rogue One and now the Han Solo Project. I'm assuming sometimes the studios are right, but damn, let the directors live or die by their sword.

Also, Ant-Man. As good as that movie turned out, it was Edgar Wright's baby, he fought hard for it, but after it got underway, it was going in directions that the studio didn't want, so they cut Edgar out. As much as I like Marvel movies, that one really stung.

[A Platypus Rave is Correct]

Jun 21, 2017 1:34:54 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

I now have memories of Genndy Tartakovsky's Popeye movie being dropped due to creative control.

I mean, it lead to new Samurai Jack and a resolution to that series when nobody thought that ever happened but GODDAMNIT Sony! That footage was the best thing and it wasn't even what the finished thing would have looked like!

Gah! Stupid studios.

Didn't that come out that it was actually dropped so they could make the Emoji movie?

[The Captain]

Also, I second just giving the project to Donald Glover. He's one of the most versatile entertainers I've ever seen between his stand-up, acting, producing, and music.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jun 21, 2017 12:14:03 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave is Correct said:

Jun 21, 2017 1:34:54 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

I now have memories of Genndy Tartakovsky's Popeye movie being dropped due to creative control.

I mean, it lead to new Samurai Jack and a resolution to that series when nobody thought that ever happened but GODDAMNIT Sony! That footage was the best thing and it wasn't even what the finished thing would have looked like!

Gah! Stupid studios.

Didn't that come out that it was actually dropped so they could make the Emoji movie?

Please don't tell me that, dude. Please, please don't say that.

Because a raging inferno will come from Dublin, Ireland if that's true. And I have no resentment for the Emoji movie at all.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Jun 21, 2017 12:49:59 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jun 21, 2017 12:14:03 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave is Correct said:

Didn't that come out that it was actually dropped so they could make the Emoji movie?

Please don't tell me that, dude. Please, please don't say that.

Because a raging inferno will come from Dublin, Ireland if that's true. And I have no resentment for the Emoji movie at all.

The rumour that Popeye was cancelled for the Emoji Movie is just that, with Tartakovsky stating that Sony simply didn't like what he had done. The project itself still hasn't been officially shelved, with T.J. Fixman (Ratchet and Clank) being brought in about 18 months ago to write it, but that's where the trail goes cold.

[Fade]

Lmao...they get mad at them for their improvisational style when that's what they're known for...


No way the film we get will resemble anything Lord and Miller intended.