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Post by héad.casé on Dec 25, 2016 10:12:42 GMT -5
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 25, 2016 12:33:51 GMT -5
ECW was a brand with the stench of their TNN run floating around them as a toxic smog, Paul Heyman had someone go out on national TV and say that their broadcaster's previous slogan was 'We **** pigs.' There was no value to keeping the ECW brand going at that point in time, none, zero, zip because no other channel would do business with them outside of fictional meetings in Hollywood, which was Heyman filming a crappy movie while the company burned. Trying to keep ECW going at that point would have alienated TNN/Spike, especially with Heyman behind the scenes because he wasn't content to simply burn the bridge, he insulted them for giving him the materials to build the bridge in the first place, took a dump on it on TV, had Sabu drop through it onto Balls Mahoney before setting the remains on fire, without giving any of his workers time to get clear.
The only reason ECW had any value in the 2000s was because of the WWF/E working flat out to hype it and build it up beyond what it ever was in life, while performing repeated hatchet jobs on WCW whenever they had an opportunity to do so. It's funny how the tables have turned, WCW content and stars are a selling point for WWE events while ECW is downplayed because it's influence was to turn wrestling into a concussion and addiction factory.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Dec 25, 2016 13:14:35 GMT -5
Tell'me how you really feel Disco Inferno.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2016 13:23:22 GMT -5
Disagree. ECW still had tons of value. The Rise and Fall of ECW I still think remains to this day as the most bought WWE DVD ever and The One Night Stand PPV's were some of the best drawing PPV's ever. Hell WWE thought ECW had so much value they even made a 1 hour show about it with there own version of it.
However WCW at 4 million could of been the greatest bargain investment ever. The Invasion could of been the biggest money drawing program ever, becoming the sole monopoly with no looming threats, and the tape collection alone will keep generating revenue for years to come. Like Heyman is right that ECW does have value and is a good investment, but he's trying to carny a carny in keeping him afloat when WCW is by far the greater money making investment just for one of those three reasons I stated above alone.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 25, 2016 14:42:21 GMT -5
What? He admits none of what he said was what Heyman said and that he never spoke to Heyman but Paul called it a dead brand to get more money out of Vince? Don't get me wrong, I the get the idea of hearing that Heyman buried it and coming up with a reason why but this recap makes no sense to me.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 26, 2016 4:09:38 GMT -5
What? He admits none of what he said was what Heyman said and that he never spoke to Heyman but Paul called it a dead brand to get more money out of Vince? Don't get me wrong, I the get the idea of hearing that Heyman buried it and coming up with a reason why but this recap makes no sense to me. Yeah, the recap is shoddily written. I listened to the podcast in question a few days ago and Prichard was in the meeting with Shane, Stephanie, Heyman, and a few others when Vince suggested buying WCW. Heyman was the only one to respond negatively to the idea and called WCW a dead brand, but Prichard never spoke one-on-one with Heyman about it and everything else is Prichard's interpretation. Keep in mind that when this meeting took place ECW was still technically active and Heyman was angling for more investment from Vince to keep it alive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 4:37:33 GMT -5
Given WCW's probably paid for itself multiple times over by this point with DVDs and the Network, think this is another for the, "Heyman is horrible at business," pile.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 26, 2016 4:44:45 GMT -5
Given WCW's probably paid for itself multiple times over by this point with DVDs and the Network, think this is another for the, "Heyman is horrible at business," pile. I've heard that the WWF ended up getting the revenue from the last couple WCW pay-per-views, which ended up being a decent chunk of money in itself.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Dec 29, 2016 18:20:21 GMT -5
Disagree. ECW still had tons of value. The Rise and Fall of ECW I still think remains to this day as the most bought WWE DVD ever and The One Night Stand PPV's were some of the best drawing PPV's ever. Hell WWE thought ECW had so much value they even made a 1 hour show about it with there own version of it. However WCW at 4 million could of been the greatest bargain investment ever. The Invasion could of been the biggest money drawing program ever, becoming the sole monopoly with no looming threats, and the tape collection alone will keep generating revenue for years to come. Like Heyman is right that ECW does have value and is a good investment, but he's trying to carny a carny in keeping him afloat when WCW is by far the greater money making investment just for one of those three reasons I stated above alone. I've also always believed that Heyman was responsible for shoehorning ECW into the Invasion storyline. Yes, it did add a shot in the arm to the angle, but it was only, what, two weeks old at that point? It still kind of rankles me that, for as subpar as the WCW faction was, we only saw that story play out for two weeks before they rushed ECW into it (Rob Van Dam, Tommy Dreamer, and a bunch of guys who had been in the WWF for a year at that point). Vince McMahon burned through using WCW, ECW, and the nWo in under a year when they could have provided storylines for the company for years. But yeah, I'd wager good money that Heyman was one of the devils on Vince's shoulder for the treatment of WCW during the Invasion.
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Urethra Franklin
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Dec 29, 2016 18:25:22 GMT -5
I guess this confirms that nobody had any good ideas when it came to WCW/the Invasion.
We could debate what the very biggest was, but surely the Invasion has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in wrestling history.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Dec 29, 2016 20:43:28 GMT -5
Tell'me how you really feel Disco Inferno. I feel like Disco Inferno would be caned about a billion times by Sandman if he was in ECW.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 30, 2016 11:12:32 GMT -5
Haha has Paul Heyman ever tell the truth one time in his life?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 30, 2016 11:16:10 GMT -5
Given WCW's probably paid for itself multiple times over by this point with DVDs and the Network, think this is another for the, "Heyman is horrible at business," pile. Honestly, He probably knew there was more money to be made with WCW... but was trying to hustle some more money to keep ECW alive.
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Post by benstudd on Dec 30, 2016 20:30:15 GMT -5
I guess this confirms that nobody had any good ideas when it came to WCW/the Invasion. We could debate what the very biggest was, but surely the Invasion has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in wrestling history. The way to handle it was so simple though: wait till the big stars of WCW were available before doing anything. The big stars started coming in just after the Invasion had ended. First Flair in September. Then the nWo in 2002. Then Bischoff. Then Steiner. You wait a year and a World of possibilities are in front of you.
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Post by thegame415 on Dec 30, 2016 20:32:17 GMT -5
Did Meltzer write that?
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Dec 30, 2016 21:27:58 GMT -5
I guess this confirms that nobody had any good ideas when it came to WCW/the Invasion. We could debate what the very biggest was, but surely the Invasion has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in wrestling history. The way to handle it was so simple though: wait till the big stars of WCW were available before doing anything. The big stars started coming in just after the Invasion had ended. First Flair in September. Then the nWo in 2002. Then Bischoff. Then Steiner. You wait a year and a World of possibilities are in front of you. For sure. They tried to do it on the cheap. If they wanted, they could have had Hogan, Flair, Goldberg, etc. on Day One, but they wouldn't match what they were getting from Turner. Now in the WWE's defence, you're talking about A LOT of money, so I see why they'd be leery, but the Invasion was something that you couldn't do half-measure. The other thing is that they blew through everything so quickly. The whole concept of the Invasion is something that could have sustained storylines for years, but everything was over and done with in 24 months at the most.
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J. Hova
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Post by J. Hova on Jan 1, 2017 5:53:51 GMT -5
Let me preface this by saying that I think Paul Heyman and Jim Cornette (as diametrically opposed to one another they are to one another) are 2 of the most brilliant minds in the biz.....
Paul is and was full of shit here. Being the charlatan that he is/was, he would lie/cheat/rob/steal to keep ECW afloat short of putting his own money into the game. If I could teleport back to 2000 and have 10 mil to put into a wrestling promotion and not be the WWF, I'd put it into WCW 1 mil times out of 1 mil. For all of WCW's failures (and there are a plethora), it was still a nationally recognized brand. ECW, for as much as I enjoyed it, was/is/always be a NE regional promotion that caught fire that couldn't draw a dime today.
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Capt Lunatic
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Jan 1, 2017 12:13:10 GMT -5
ECW, for as much as I enjoyed it, was/is/always be a NE regional promotion that caught fire that couldn't draw a dime today. But...it did draw relatively recently. First on PPV, then back on TV(for a while). It was no one match on RAW, but it's still fact. Actually, the way CZW and ROH both went out of business 100% proves your point. Nobody today wants stiff/athletic/hardcore matches backed by good storylines.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 1, 2017 14:56:11 GMT -5
ECW, for as much as I enjoyed it, was/is/always be a NE regional promotion that caught fire that couldn't draw a dime today. But...it did draw relatively recently. First on PPV, then back on TV(for a while). It was no one match on RAW, but it's still fact. Actually, the way CZW and ROH both went out of business 100% proves your point. Nobody today wants stiff/athletic/hardcore matches backed by good storylines. Neither RoH or CZW are mainstream promotions and RoH was in real trouble before Jim Cornette hooked them up with Sinclair. The ECW revival drew because people who didn't watch at the time wanted to see what the fuss is about after the effort the WWF/E had gone to in hyping it as though it was the equal of WCW. There is a world of difference between that and keeping a promotion like ECW as it was going as an ongoing thing. ECW as it was had no value as an ongoing company, the only reason it made it into the 2000s was because people weren't getting paid and weren't fighting as strongly as they should have to change that. ECW went under owing guys, including people who hadn't worked there for years, tens of thousands of dollars, $150,000 in the case of RVD, and rather than trying to fix anything when the bills began to mount, Heyman ploughed ahead as usual, burning bridges with his partners and bitched and moaned when guys left to go to places they'd actually be paid because kudos from the ECW fanbase weren't something they could feed their families with. The money the WWF paid to buy WCW wouldn't have fixed ECW's issues, they were a northeastern promotion who wrecked their chances of growth with the way they acted toward TNN, the money the WWF spent on WCW wouldn't even have covered half of ECW's debt, all spending money on them would have been was shoveling a tonne of money into a creatively stagnant hole. The WWF made the right choice not bailing him out in any way and going with Cornette's OVW as their farm league.
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Capt Lunatic
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Jan 1, 2017 20:35:12 GMT -5
But...it did draw relatively recently. First on PPV, then back on TV(for a while). It was no one match on RAW, but it's still fact. Actually, the way CZW and ROH both went out of business 100% proves your point. Nobody today wants stiff/athletic/hardcore matches backed by good storylines. Neither RoH or CZW are mainstream promotions and RoH was in real trouble before Jim Cornette hooked them up with Sinclair. The ECW revival drew because people who didn't watch at the time wanted to see what the fuss is about after the effort the WWF/E had gone to in hyping it as though it was the equal of WCW. There is a world of difference between that and keeping a promotion like ECW as it was going as an ongoing thing. ECW as it was had no value as an ongoing company, the only reason it made it into the 2000s was because people weren't getting paid and weren't fighting as strongly as they should have to change that. ECW went under owing guys, including people who hadn't worked there for years, tens of thousands of dollars, $150,000 in the case of RVD, and rather than trying to fix anything when the bills began to mount, Heyman ploughed ahead as usual, burning bridges with his partners and bitched and moaned when guys left to go to places they'd actually be paid because kudos from the ECW fanbase weren't something they could feed their families with. The money the WWF paid to buy WCW wouldn't have fixed ECW's issues, they were a northeastern promotion who wrecked their chances of growth with the way they acted toward TNN, the money the WWF spent on WCW wouldn't even have covered half of ECW's debt, all spending money on them would have been was shoveling a tonne of money into a creatively stagnant hole. The WWF made the right choice not bailing him out in any way and going with Cornette's OVW as their farm league. Uh huh.
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