How did pro wrestling survive the 1934 exposing?

[Glitch]

When wrestling took off in the 50s, wouldnt a sports journalist or something have said "people! This stuff is fake, remember?"

[Joe Neglia]

People really didn't care to remember some old news interview from twenty years prior, especially with a generation gap and a World War separating the two. Wrestling, even at its height, was a niche and the combination just meant people didn't bother to look back. And really, even back then, a lot of the audience knew what was up to at least some degree. Those that didn't...well, we still have some of those in this day and age of the internet and social media.

[Mozenrath]

Jan 10, 2018 3:16:21 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

People really didn't care to remember some old news interview from twenty years prior, especially with a generation gap and a World War separating the two. Wrestling, even at its height, was a niche and the combination just meant people didn't bother to look back. And really, even back then, a lot of the audience knew what was up to at least some degree. Those that didn't...well, we still have some of those in this day and age of the internet and social media.

I think a lot of those types, both then and now, don't want to know or acknowledge it, and would rather take it at face value.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Read old sports reports before radio or TV. It’s insane. They have to describe everything to people so they lied. “The body check knocked him straight in the air, 7 feet at least, he did 5 flips on the way down and landed on his head”.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

I think that the only way the exposure could truly work was with footage but unfortunately there was no tv back then.

People needed to see footage of the guys calling spots and using a blade.

Off topic but Jim Cornette said that he recently did a signing in a backwoods town kinda like the one in Deliverance, and a fan said that he wasn't sure if wrestling was fake or not. So there might still be some people that were never exposed lol.

[Deleted]

Somehow I've never heard about this 1934 incident, and I can't seem to find it online. Does anyone know any more about this?

[lildude8218]

I'm more surprised that they survived after planes were invented. But now many people look back fondly on the Altitude Era

[Joe Neglia]

Jan 10, 2018 13:05:47 GMT -5 @wvguitar said:

Somehow I've never heard about this 1934 incident, and I can't seem to find it online. Does anyone know any more about this?

Promoter Jeck Pfefer was ousted from his position during a power play behind the scenes, and in retaliation and hoping to destroy his enemies, went to the New York Daily News and gave them an interview exposing the entire business in detail. It hurt the New York wrestling scene especially bad, and took years to build business back up.

[msc]

Pro-wrestling survive, that's why. It's probably been around for 3000 years, and it'll probably stick around for as long as humans survive.

[Joe Neglia]

Jan 10, 2018 14:44:49 GMT -5 msc said:

Pro-wrestling survive, that's why. It's probably been around for 3000 years, and it'll probably stick around for as long as humans survive.

While elements of it have been around forever, pro wrestling as we know it was created wholesale by Toots Mondt in 1919, 99 years ago. While matches were certainly "fixed" here and there before that, it was Mondt who created the template that we still follow today, creating a booking system, choreographing matches or parts of matches, playing up outlandish character gimmicks and the like. Prior to him putting this system together and convincing several of the top wrestlers of the time to go along with it, wrestling was mostly real and very, very boring. Matches could last 2-4 hours, with one guy holding another in a headlock the entirety of the time.

Elements of it have been around, absolutely though. From some Roman gladiators gaining celebrity status to the 1800s carnies who traveled to small towns to con the locals in scam "tough man" fights, parts of it have lingered about all this time, but it was Mondt that actively and consciously changed the business from a mostly real sport into a planned work.

[msc]

He might have given it more razzmatazz (the booking bits), for sure, but the choreographed nature (even at its most basic) was around from at least the 1900s in the US with the Gotch/Hack series (I don't have it to hand, but there's a great history book on European wrestling where Hackenschmidt is said to have moaned to confidantes that Gotch would do shoot moves unexpectedly to make himself look good to the crowd when things were planned to go other ways; one press conference ended with Gotch, iirc, being sneak attacked and thrown into an orchestra pit!), and earlier in Europe (where, for example, The Terrible Turk, a outlandish but recognisable gimmick in itself - arguably he kept kayfabe right to his untimely death..). Records prior are a bit fuzzy (read - mostly inaccessible) and you are right there was a direct correlation with the tough man/carnival tradition.

However...I do like the idea of Vincent Aristotle McMahon not understanding why the crowd in the Parthenaic aren't taking to his new Zeus character... "I'll try this again in 2000 years against Hogan, that'll show them!"

[Joe Neglia]

I heartily recommend those interested into reading more about Pfefer and Mondt - the two of them are two of the most important names in the business not named "McMahon" and yet rarely get brought up today. Mondt - the guy who literally created pro wrestling as we know it today - was Jess McMahon's partner in creating what would eventually become the WWE. He and the Gold Dust Trio were the NWA before the NWA existed, and the whole thing is just fascinating.

Pfefer's role in everything is just as interesting. After he exposed the business, he basically succeeded in "destroying" his enemies a couple of years later - he paid off Dick Shikat to double-cross the Gold Dust Trio during a match and shoot on their champion Danno O'Mahoney, stealing the title in a screwjob. Pfefer then made a deal with Mondt to double-cross Pfefer's money-men to get the title back into GDT possession during another screwjob shoot, with Mondt paying Pfefer something like $15-20k and a promise to bring him back into the office. The others in the Trio refused to work with Pfefer and they broke up, bringing Pfefer's entire plan to fruition.

With his enemies now fighting and competing with one another instead of working as a unit, Pfefer headed out and started promoting his shows as theatrical performances full of a "freakshow" wrestlers and oddities, bizarre gimmicks, rip-off gimmicks and such, instead of the "grit and gritty 'real'" wrestling his competitors were trying to offer.

[Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie]

it was far, far easier to wrestle matches without those blasted top hats!

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Jan 10, 2018 15:15:50 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

Jan 10, 2018 14:44:49 GMT -5 msc said:

Pro-wrestling survive, that's why. It's probably been around for 3000 years, and it'll probably stick around for as long as humans survive.

While elements of it have been around forever, pro wrestling as we know it was created wholesale by Toots Mondt in 1919, 99 years ago. While matches were certainly "fixed" here and there before that, it was Mondt who created the template that we still follow today, creating a booking system, choreographing matches or parts of matches, playing up outlandish character gimmicks and the like. Prior to him putting this system together and convincing several of the top wrestlers of the time to go along with it, wrestling was mostly real and very, very boring. Matches could last 2-4 hours, with one guy holding another in a headlock the entirety of the time.

Elements of it have been around, absolutely though. From some Roman gladiators gaining celebrity status to the 1800s carnies who traveled to small towns to con the locals in scam "tough man" fights, parts of it have lingered about all this time, but it was Mondt that actively and consciously changed the business from a mostly real sport into a planned work.

People bitch about the Mania 12 Iron Man match. Imagine a 4 hour long headlock.

You pictured Randy Orton, right?

[Deleted]

Jan 10, 2018 11:52:27 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Off topic but Jim Cornette said that he recently did a signing in a backwoods town kinda like the one in Deliverance, and a fan said that he wasn't sure if wrestling was fake or not.

I bet that guy has a subscription to NJPW World and just decided to mess with Cornette that day. But I'm sure Cornette would love it if everybody was legitimately like that still.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Jan 10, 2018 19:30:58 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

Jan 10, 2018 11:52:27 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Off topic but Jim Cornette said that he recently did a signing in a backwoods town kinda like the one in Deliverance, and a fan said that he wasn't sure if wrestling was fake or not.

I bet that guy has a subscription to NJPW World and just decided to mess with Cornette that day. But I'm sure Cornette would love it if everybody was legitimately like that still.

Hahaha I think he does.

Corny told an awesome story about Eddie Mansfield exposing everything on tv and how everyone wanted to kick the guy's ass, then a lot of the guys who wanted to beat up Mansfield ended up working for his company in Florida.

[honsou]

Wrestling had been "exposed" once every few years as far back as the late 1800s. There were even hilarious law suits where people had bet on pro wrestling and then sued saying that the belt should be null and void due to the match being fixed. It seems like what usually happened is something similar a lot of us would hear on the playgrounds as kids: "Oh yeah that guy is totally phony but have you seen/heard of that guy? Hes a total monster and for real!"

[Deleted]

Jan 10, 2018 15:38:54 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

I heartily recommend those interested into reading more about Pfefer and Mondt - the two of them are two of the most important names in the business not named "McMahon" and yet rarely get brought up today. Mondt - the guy who literally created pro wrestling as we know it today - was Jess McMahon's partner in creating what would eventually become the WWE. He and the Gold Dust Trio were the NWA before the NWA existed, and the whole thing is just fascinating.

Pfefer's role in everything is just as interesting. After he exposed the business, he basically succeeded in "destroying" his enemies a couple of years later - he paid off Dick Shikat to double-cross the Gold Dust Trio during a match and shoot on their champion Danno O'Mahoney, stealing the title in a screwjob. Pfefer then made a deal with Mondt to double-cross Pfefer's money-men to get the title back into GDT possession during another screwjob shoot, with Mondt paying Pfefer something like $15-20k and a promise to bring him back into the office. The others in the Trio refused to work with Pfefer and they broke up, bringing Pfefer's entire plan to fruition.

With his enemies now fighting and competing with one another instead of working as a unit, Pfefer headed out and started promoting his shows as theatrical performances full of a "freakshow" wrestlers and oddities, bizarre gimmicks, rip-off gimmicks and such, instead of the "grit and gritty 'real'" wrestling his competitors were trying to offer.

Is there truth to the story Piper told in a shoot about how Vince Sr (or possibly Jess?) countered Pfefer?

Where he paid off the ushers to seat everyone wrongly at the garden so there was so much unrest, the show never started and basically ran him out of town that way.