Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 5:49:21 GMT -5
A common complaint (and frequently a valid one) is that WWE doesn't listen to fan reactions when it comes to pushes for talent.
So I have a hypothetical for you. You're Vince. You expanded your Dad's company and made yourself a millionaire by your own booking and the booking and talent of the people who you chose to surround yourself with. It's your money running the company so your money lost if things go south.
Pick your least favourite guy on roster, someone you just can't stand. He starts getting monster reactions from all crowds and his little bit of merch starts selling out.
Do you push him? Be honest here, in that position, could you push a wrestler you can't stand to the moon for the good of business.
Because Vince has (maybe not someone he couldn't stand but someone he hadn't seen value in). I don't know if I could.
Hence why I'm not a promoter.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 30, 2018 5:51:30 GMT -5
Yup, it's a business.
Unless the guy's doing something that'll hurt the company, he's an employee, not a friend so I don't care if I like him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 5:59:48 GMT -5
Yup, it's a business. Unless the guy's doing something that'll hurt the company, he's an employee, not a friend so I don't care if I like him. But if you don't like his work and your instincts have got youn to this point, it's harder to be dispassionate. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,423
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 30, 2018 6:01:36 GMT -5
Yup, it's a business. Unless the guy's doing something that'll hurt the company, he's an employee, not a friend so I don't care if I like him. But if you don't like his work and your instincts have got youn to this point, it's harder to be dispassionate. There's instincts, and there's facts. If the fact is he's bringing in money, doesn't matter what I like, the people like it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 6:06:33 GMT -5
But if you don't like his work and your instincts have got youn to this point, it's harder to be dispassionate. There's instincts, and there's facts. If the fact is he's bringing in money, doesn't matter what I like, the people like it. You're totally right, I can see why it would be difficult though after this amount of time with this amount of emotional investment. I can understand the opposite. As I say, I doubt I could. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 30, 2018 6:07:08 GMT -5
So....Enzo?
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,423
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 30, 2018 6:15:24 GMT -5
Almost used Enzo in my argument actually, as long as he was just an asshole, let him make money. Once it goes beyond that, they're out.
Instincts are fine when you're deciding on someone to push, but if someone unexpected starts bringing money in, you'd be a fool not to use them. Even if it's only to put with or against another person that you want to get over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 6:19:16 GMT -5
If he's your guy you can't stand, yeah, only pre-release obviously |
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Post by Viking Hall on Jan 30, 2018 6:42:26 GMT -5
Put it from the point of view of running a sports team. You have a player who personality wise you don't like for whatever reason, but every weekend he goes out and proves why he's one of the best in the world at what he does and becomes a hero to fans across the land. Do you stop picking your game changing player because he irritates you or do you go with the less talented backup option and leave your best player to rot on the bench? Clearly, unless you're a total idiot, you go for the player that's going to bring you the most success. Pro-Wrestling shouldn't be any different.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jan 30, 2018 8:55:32 GMT -5
Put it from the point of view of running a sports team. You have a player who personality wise you don't like for whatever reason, but every weekend he goes out and proves why he's one of the best in the world at what he does and becomes a hero to fans across the land. Do you stop picking your game changing player because he irritates you or do you go with the less talented backup option and leave your best player to rot on the bench? Clearly, unless you're a total idiot, you go for the player that's going to bring you the most success. Pro-Wrestling shouldn't be any different. So...CM Punk? |
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Post by lesleymoon on Jan 30, 2018 9:56:13 GMT -5
Put it from the point of view of running a sports team. You have a player who personality wise you don't like for whatever reason, but every weekend he goes out and proves why he's one of the best in the world at what he does and becomes a hero to fans across the land. Do you stop picking your game changing player because he irritates you or do you go with the less talented backup option and leave your best player to rot on the bench? Clearly, unless you're a total idiot, you go for the player that's going to bring you the most success. Pro-Wrestling shouldn't be any different. So...CM Punk? From everything I've heard, Vince liked Punk pretty well. Even Punk said they used to text at ungodly hours, I doubt Vince is doing that with everyone. It would definitely be tough for me to not bring my personal thoughts and feelings into it, but I think Vince does a pretty good job of not. Maybe he wishes he could give everyone all of the things, but he just can't. |
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 30, 2018 10:06:07 GMT -5
Yup, it's a business. Unless the guy's doing something that'll hurt the company, he's an employee, not a friend so I don't care if I like him. Exactly. If I don't like the guy or his work ethic or whatever, I'd fire him. |
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Reflecto
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The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 30, 2018 10:12:35 GMT -5
Yup, it's a business. Unless the guy's doing something that'll hurt the company, he's an employee, not a friend so I don't care if I like him. But if you don't like his work and your instincts have got youn to this point, it's harder to be dispassionate. But this argument shows the real flaw in the whole scenario as it is. If it's your money, you made it to the top on your own booking, it's all what you have made the company great on paper, and it's your own instincts that got you to this point in the first place...but you really, really don't like the guy's work THAT MUCH... ...THEN WHY THE **** DID YOU HIRE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?  If this scenario says "they're your personal least favorite worker" and you absolutely hate them...well, guess what: Just by hiring them, you said "This person is good enough to be here even if I don't like them". So, there's no reason not to run with it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 10:14:00 GMT -5
But if you don't like his work and your instincts have got youn to this point, it's harder to be dispassionate. But this argument shows the real flaw in the whole scenario as it is. If it's your money, you made it to the top on your own booking, it's all what you have made the company great on paper, and it's your own instincts that got you to this point in the first place...but you really, really don't like the guy's work THAT MUCH... ...THEN WHY THE **** DID YOU HIRE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE? If this scenario says "they're your personal least favorite worker" and you absolutely hate them...well, guess what: Just by hiring them, you said "This person is good enough to be here even if I don't like them". So, there's no reason not to run with it. Vince doesn't do the hiring/talent relations. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 30, 2018 10:30:32 GMT -5
You're Vince. You expanded your Dad's company and made yourself a millionaire by your own booking and the booking and talent of the people who you chose to surround yourself with. You mean the talent who had to fight against the stiflingly bad ideas that did nothing for their careers? The Ringmaster Steve Austin? Blue Chipper Rocky Maivia? Roman Reigns who literally right now has so many vocal detractors whose whole point is "If they could use this dude properly I'd be all over this but this is all wrong". Or what about someone like Kevin Nash who as Diesel was historically speaking a f***ing disaster, but who went on to WCW and become a massive draw, only to never really be used properly back in WWE again. Vince has never been a good judge of how to make talent get over. Austin and The Rock were both singled out as potential big deal but Vince's ability to make it happen wasn't there at all. Vince's ability to push talent has become worse and worse over the years, and now he's in a position where few people are over on what infuriatingly enough feels like his own ideas. He jerks talent around in the booking, nobody gets over, nobody gets to find their personalities and if they try to break out and "grab the brass ring" their hand gets swatted down. If the company doesn't believe in you, you'll spin your wheels. If the company does believe in you, you become the passion project of a man with no idea how to write for his audience. Then when somebody does get over and gets bigger reactions than anyone has in years, Vince buries him on TV, tries to shove him off into a dead end feud where he can puff up Cena's Mania opponent, and makes him dress like a garbageman. And it took not being the bigger man or saying "It's not for me but people love it" or even "I'm in the business of making money and if the fans want him they'll get him". He had to be held at gunpoint and fear his landmark 30th Wrestlemania be booed into f***ing extinction by a hostile audience who wasn't happy. But then what was waiting for Bryan? Reportedly, the Lesnar squash that Cena took where the whole thing was startling in seeing just how brutal it was. The fans were going to watch the guy they cheered and fought to get up to the top be brutalized by Brock so Roman could vanquish him. So nah screw the idea Vince is in any way the bigger man who will make money with someone he doesn't believe in. He isn't actually that good or that decent. He writes a show for him and doesn't really care about anything else, and it actively hurts the product, because he will put out the show he wants to put out even if it's in front of ten people. But then Vince has to go and give fans the finger by claiming he's a "good listener" and insisting someone who was over as f*** couldn't connect with the fans. |
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Post by sportatorium on Jan 30, 2018 13:38:45 GMT -5
I don’t think the reason Vince chooses not to push people has anything to do with whether he “likes” them. He loves R-Truth, but isn’t giving him a push. Vince is in the publicly traded trap. Investors want stability, so Vince is chasing “the guy” created by WWE. Cena, Reigns, Strowman & Miz aren’t getting their pushes by accident.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 31, 2018 13:55:30 GMT -5
If he's your guy you can't stand, yeah, only pre-release obviously More so the treatment he got to keep him out of Vince McMahon's sight - moved to cruiserweight division but featured heavily as he sold merchandise. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 31, 2018 14:03:20 GMT -5
Well, as I had said years ago ago in one of the list of who would you fire and Ziggler was listed that I wouldn't. I hate him and found him boring as hell even back then... but at the time dude was over. (like I said this was years ago  ) If I am the owner my job is to make money and put on a show people want to see, if people like Bray Wyatt and are paying money to see him I'd give him something to do even if it's at the expense of someone I like that isn't as over. (I would try to build the people I like up too but if something isn't working you kinda have to admit that and change gears on it.) |
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Ben Wyatt
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Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 31, 2018 14:07:48 GMT -5
I'm far from someone who thinks Vince is this infallible genius, but at the same time, I don't think Vince is some big senile meanie who gets his jollies from antagonizing fans. It's just a matter of his finger not being on the pulse like it once was.
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Post by darbus alan on Jan 31, 2018 14:23:32 GMT -5
If I'm Vince in 2018, I delegate to people more in touch with the cultural zeitgeist to make most of the day-to-day decisions on talent and pushes. But get the final say on major pushes that could have major consequences, positive or negative, on WWE's bottom line. I'd also do what's best for business. If it's a guy I personally don't like but he's over with the fans, then he'll get a push unless he displays an unprofessional attitude.
I'd also make sure that the people I surround myself with aren't spineless yes men who aren't afraid to be honest about when things aren't working (see: Cena's original superman push, Roman Reigns' superman push). But then I don't have Vince's massive ego or stubbornness about sticking with what isn't really working.
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