Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 2, 2018 12:32:01 GMT -5
Yeah, to be fair, Tim Burton's Batman movies are more Tim Burton movies starring a guy dressed up in a batsuit. Much like how Jack Nicholson's Joker was really just Jack playing Jack wearing clown makeup.Batman 1989 was a good movie but a poor adaptation of the source material. I always take offense to this statement, which pops up regularly. The Jack Napier bits I'll give people as "Jack playing Jack", but once he has the acid bath, he's playing the most true to the source Joker there's ever been in live action. If you can watch the Museum scene or the parade scene and think he's just playing himself, then I don't know what to tell you. That was pure Joker.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 2, 2018 13:01:24 GMT -5
How much clearer do you need to get? Given Batman's use of a gun earlier in the story when he stops the kidnapping, albeit perhaps in a scenario in which he had no choice but to appropriate the mutant gang member's gun to stop the child from being killed (except, he's Batman, right? he honestly couldn't figure a way not to use a gun in that scenario?), this moment from the fourth book of TDKR isn't exactly persuasive. Miller's Batman is kind of a preachy asshole, so I'm not surprised that he might do one thing earlier in the series, but then say another later on, especially when he's trying to convince (or brainwash?) a bunch of angry, teenage boys, who were formerly gangmembers, to join his cause. If one were to read Batman as a murderer in TDKR, I wouldn't be surprised... I don't think the text is as clear-cut as people are making it out to be. The noted Joker neck-break in part 3 is a great example of how one could come to such a conclusion about Batman being a killer. Joker's dialogue balloons, once his neck has been all but snapped by Batman, resemble Batman's thought bubbles, which themselves change shape and colour fill throughout the fairground sequence, after the moment when Batman has been stabbed. Through this resemblance, Miller could be implying that everything that Joker says after the neck break is all in Batman's head. Which would also mean that Batman did in fact kill the Joker? Some of the text in Batman's thought balloons before this moment suggest that Batman is okay with killing, just not when one uses a gun to do so. "A gun is a coward's weapon./A liar's weapon./We kill... too often ...because we've made it easy... too easy.../...sparing ourselves.../the mess.../...and the work..." And then six panels later the ShkkKRAKKK happens. Another instance of Batman-as-murderer-maybe(?) is the general's apparent suicide in part 2. Miller's splash page shows the gun smoking in the general's hand. Batman is shown carrying the bleeding general's body, which is draped in the American flag. The image is comical in its exaggerated patriotism, in which the general died for his country because of the crimes, selling guns to the mutant gang, which he committed against it. I find it hard not to read the image, when coupled with the Batman's inner monologue, ironically, especially because of the last box, "I almost asked him why" (why he sold the guns? why he betrayed his country? why he killed himself?). I read the line as sardonic, not unlike a quip delivered by an 80s action star after committing a comic, gruesome murder against a foe. The splash page also doesn't have a lot of visual context; it's not like we see Batman sneaking into the general's office and then confronting the general with the information that the upside-down mutant gang member told Batman. So I don't see how it's an intellectual leap to think that maybe Batman killed the general? Or, it's as valid of an interpretation of the splash page as is the obvious, that the general killed himself. (on this point, Jay Oliva, the director of the animated TDKR movie, says on the commentary for the film that when he first read the book that he thought Batman killed the general, which is why he added material to make the scene less ambiguous.) Then the following page features Miller's famous TV panels, in which a reporter details the reasons behind the general's suicide. But given how the TV news media is represented throughout the whole of TDKR--vapid, fake, and clueless personalities who talk about things about which they have no true understanding--I don't know if we should take the information the news anchor presents us with as being valid and truthful? The news media seemingly is another object of criticism in Miller's book, as are ineffectual politicians and coddling doctors, when it comes to representing crime in Gotham. If we were to agree with Miller, or at least understand that this could be his perspective and opinion about such people (maybe?), then it casts doubt on anything and everything that is reported on TV, perhaps which includes the 'facts' about the general's apparent suicide. But then I read the Batman of Miller's TDKR with a skeptical eye right from the start. The first step of Bruce Wayne becoming Batman again in TDKR is when he shaves off his mustache, which is something he doesn't even remember doing. That's a moment, which is grounded by Batman's traumatic episode when watching TV, that signals to the reader that maybe Batman has mental health problems (obviously), but also, that maybe Batman is an unreliable narrator in his own story (which is framed at the beginning and ending by the idea that Batman has a death wish, but also wants his death to mean something). That's why when Batman says he's using "rubber bullets, honest" when he's blowing the mutant gang away, it's easy to be skeptical about his claim, because in TDKR he often says and does whatever he wants in order to suit his goals. Batman bends the world to his will and his representation of the world. It doesn't make much sense to me to be angry and suggest that Snyder is imposing his version of TDKR onto his movies, by pointing to moments in Miller's book that seemingly contradict Snyder's interpretation, but then also impose our own interpretation of 'who Batman should be', the very thing for which people chide Snyder, onto Snyder's movies which draw from Miller's work, texts that are much more pregnant with multiple, and perhaps contradictory, meanings than what a superficial scan of the page would immediately suggest.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Aug 2, 2018 13:06:04 GMT -5
With how much the new commissioner hated Batman if there was ANY chance they could have tied murders or death to him at any time prior to Joker she absolutely would have.
The fact that it isn't until Joker snaps his own neck that the charges against him didn't include it shows that Batman hasn't killed anyone or been in reasonable doubt of murdering anyone in the Dark Knight Returns.
Joker's entire plan in snapping his own neck was to completely ruin Batman's reputation so that everyone saw him as little better than the Joker, a psychopath running around killing people in a batsuit.
But people aren't saying well he didn't read it because Snyder has Batman killing people.
It's because Snyder mentions things that flat out do not happen in the book as absolutely happening like Batman shooting a thug in the head... that is not shown or even hinted at happening.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Aug 3, 2018 15:17:37 GMT -5
This idiot is the one feeding the Snyder Cut bullshit.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 3, 2018 17:43:29 GMT -5
He sounds full of shit honestly.
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JoDaNa1281
Crow T. Robot
Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender. #BLM
Posts: 41,977
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Aug 3, 2018 19:37:20 GMT -5
I mean I get what you're saying in Snyder just puttin lip service to following the source, and that's valid. Just sayin that I'm not that bothered by the changes that much. Of all the problems I had with the movie, that's not one. Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb. Plus, Batman didn't kill that guy "just because"...he just happens to be a really big Lincoln Hawk(s) fan.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 3, 2018 19:43:36 GMT -5
Goin out of his way to immolate a dude however..
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Aug 3, 2018 20:41:20 GMT -5
This idiot is the one feeding the Snyder Cut bullshit. ... Did that dude just chastise someone for assuming that it doesn't exist by drawing an assumption that it does? How does that work?
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Aug 3, 2018 20:45:16 GMT -5
This idiot is the one feeding the Snyder Cut bullshit. ... Did that dude just chastise someone for assuming that it doesn't exist by drawing an assumption that it does? How does that work? It's very easy to make things work when you don't have to worry about silly things like "facts" or "reality".
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Aug 3, 2018 20:46:02 GMT -5
In before, "B-but Batman killed and carried a gun for like the first 5 issues of Detective Comics!"
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 3, 2018 21:07:32 GMT -5
This idiot is the one feeding the Snyder Cut bullshit. ... Did that dude just chastise someone for assuming that it doesn't exist by drawing an assumption that it does? How does that work? He was a storyboard artist for Man of Steel, BVS, Wonder Woman, a few scenes on Justice League, and directed Justice League Dark, both parts of The Dark Knight Returns, Assault on Arkham, and Batman: Bad Blood, so he is at least close enough to both DC Films and the production to know the footage exists and - as he points out in his tweet - an assembly cut exists that led to Snyder being replaced. Of course, there's a big difference between an assembly cut and a fully realised Director's Cut, and he points out in another tweet that movie-quality CGI costs about a million per minute. Considering the final movie's CGI looked far from movie-quality, I have my doubts about his claims that the stuff he's seen in the assembly cut is anywhere close to being up to release quality.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 3, 2018 21:08:44 GMT -5
Right. I'm sure there's some sort of rough cut, but it'd likely look like absolute garbage.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Aug 3, 2018 21:11:58 GMT -5
This guy is crazy and I can only imagine what harm he's doing to his professional reputation at this point.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 3, 2018 21:23:42 GMT -5
This guy is crazy and I can only imagine what harm he's doing to his professional reputation at this point. Considering he's done a complete 180 from this time last month, where he specified the cut shown to WB was the assembly cut with early prerendered CGI and Snyder wasn't likely working on a proper "Snyder Cut", and now he's frothing at the mouth saying that it exists and what WB saw was a ready-to-release finished product, he's not doing himself any favours. Yeah, I don't see him working for WB for a while.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 21:31:29 GMT -5
I can do low budget CGI for $10,000 a minute.
Hey, they want the Snyder Cut so badly...
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Post by Larryhausen on Aug 4, 2018 0:22:39 GMT -5
So, I'm in the middle of a drunken bar conversation with a very dear friend of mine, and we just came to this conclusion:
Had Warner Bros. and everybody taken their time and built up a universe like the MCU, Kingdom Come could have been their Infinity War.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 4, 2018 0:29:57 GMT -5
So, I'm in the middle of a drunken bar conversation with a very dear friend of mine, and we just came to this conclusion: Had Warner Bros. and everybody taken their time and built up a universe like the MCU, Kingdom Come could have been their Infinity War. I've always maintained that if properly built up, TDKR could be their infinity war. Instead of trying to out Thanos the MCU, build up over a ten year span Batman versus Superman.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 4, 2018 2:47:23 GMT -5
So, I'm in the middle of a drunken bar conversation with a very dear friend of mine, and we just came to this conclusion: Had Warner Bros. and everybody taken their time and built up a universe like the MCU, Kingdom Come could have been their Infinity War. I've always maintained that if properly built up, TDKR could be their infinity war. Instead of trying to out Thanos the MCU, build up over a ten year span Batman versus Superman. Blew that pretty damn fast.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 4, 2018 2:53:39 GMT -5
I've always maintained that if properly built up, TDKR could be their infinity war. Instead of trying to out Thanos the MCU, build up over a ten year span Batman versus Superman. Blew that pretty damn fast. Like cheap tissue paper.
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Aug 4, 2018 9:50:36 GMT -5
So, I'm in the middle of a drunken bar conversation with a very dear friend of mine, and we just came to this conclusion: Had Warner Bros. and everybody taken their time and built up a universe like the MCU, Kingdom Come could have been their Infinity War. And then you have Crisis which could have also involved the TV Universe, surviving cast from past movies and versions of characters, etc. etc. Which would also have helped the people who complained about double-casting certain characters.
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