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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 15, 2018 19:11:01 GMT -5
So she's become what they've done to Brian on Family Guy? She's worse. Like, never in a billion years would Al Jean consider killing her off. In seriousness, even Seth is aware what a douche Brian has become and lately has toned down his involvement. Jean has tripled down on Lisa. That's not good I mean with Brian all Seth was doing there was voicing all his complaints and opinions through Brian which made him highly annoying but there's no real excuse for Lisa
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Malcolm
Grimlock
Wanted something done about the color of his ring.
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Post by Malcolm on Apr 15, 2018 19:13:52 GMT -5
Weren't people complaining about Apu years(decades even) before this? Yeah. It'd be like if they remade Short Circuit exactly the same, and said, "Why does everyone all of a sudden have an issue with Benjamin?" They did already, people just didn't pay attention to them. That's the thing that gets me about this. People are acting like people are suddenly offended by Apu when this was something that's been happening for years. I (vaguely)remember seeing critical articles at whatnot about Apu being an offensive stereotype years before this.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Apr 15, 2018 19:17:34 GMT -5
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 15, 2018 20:22:34 GMT -5
Wake me up when The PC Thugs get kicked out of power and we can go back to watching stuff without them coming in and demanding we feel guilty for doing so. Shall we change Injun Joe to Victorian Joseph while we're at it? Or how's about we have Popeye no longer be a sailor because he smokes a corncob pipe? And how could we possibly live with ourselves if we allow The Flintstones to continue on with domesticating and using Dinosaurs as labor animals? ...what? Why are you comparing racist caricatures that wouldn't fly today with the goddamn Flintstones? By the way, a little research would show that most adaptions today just call him Joe or Tattoo Joe.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 15, 2018 20:31:39 GMT -5
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Dragonfly
Unicron
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Post by Dragonfly on Apr 15, 2018 20:42:12 GMT -5
She was, at one point. Dunno about modern Lisa, they don't seem to really know who she is anymore. Like, this moment makes me think of an inverse of the note from the substitute teacher. "You aren't Lisa Simpson.Modern Lisa is Writers Wish Fulfillment. Like, the amount of episodes the past decade that revolve around "Guest star comes to Springfield to tell Lisa she's great" is astounding. "Lisa Goes Gaga" has proved to be the norm, not the exception. Anyway, I posted a reply on Twitter about this & the issue is more about the old guard being bitter & hostile to change. Adaption and the show don't go hand and hand; it wasn't until Season 14 when the show went to digital animation and that was simply because they had to. From a writing perspective, the show has been in a stranglehold between three men; Al Jean, Max Pross, and Tom Gammill, for the past 15 years. None of them were willing to adapt and became increasingly embittered about change & how young people are always wrong. Since this is Apu, the episode "Much Apu About Something" is to me the most apt exploration of their mindset. In it, Jamshed takes over the store after Sanjay retires, and Apu is increasingly hostile about the situation, while Jamshed is written as "every millennial stereotype we came up with". So it's not a surprise when Jean did a "f*** you" reply to it since they long decided that every single complaint was from Comic Book Guy. Tl;Dr: It's crabby writers that are the issue. At the beginning of tonight's episode, Marge forces Bart to pick a musical instrument to learn. Bart fights her, because "music is made by computers, not rusty pieces of metal you put in your mouth." Homer, who won't get off his phone, says the following: "Look: Your mother thinks learning music in school will somehow make you a different person than we all know you are, which it won't, so just do it or I'll cut all of your shorts into skirts." ...Yeah. I'm not expecting anything but bitterness, anger and resentment towards [place unfair steretype, modern cultural trend or emerging social norm here] from this crew.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 20:45:03 GMT -5
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
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Post by chrom on Apr 15, 2018 21:29:04 GMT -5
Wake me up when The PC Thugs get kicked out of power and we can go back to watching stuff without them coming in and demanding we feel guilty for doing so. Shall we change Injun Joe to Victorian Joseph while we're at it? Or how's about we have Popeye no longer be a sailor because he smokes a corncob pipe? And how could we possibly live with ourselves if we allow The Flintstones to continue on with domesticating and using Dinosaurs as labor animals? ...what? Why are you comparing racist caricatures that wouldn't fly today with the goddamn Flintstones? By the way, a little research would show that most adaptions today just call him Joe or Tattoo Joe. Simple its forced animal labor. Their taking and enslaving wild animals and forcing them to lift heavy boulders and do construction work to build faculties and buildings. But I don't see anyone holding protests over it. Are you telling me Dinosaurs don't have feelings? We're up in arms whenever we discover Dog Fighting Pits but I don't see anyone yelling and complaining and staging rallys to protest Dinosaurs being used not only as labor but as meat as well once their unable to work, what do you think is in Fred's favorite meal Bronto Burgers?
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 15, 2018 21:29:32 GMT -5
All average Americans are fat and lazy All cops have blue hair and are massively over weight All Scottish people are janitors All old people are incredibly belligerent All principles are over the top virgins who live with their mom If anything Apu was painted as the most thoughtful character they had. They shed a light on the long hours immigrants have to work with him, and they made him a forward thinking vegan who was an intellectual. Not once was he ever a dumb immigrant. I would say out of all the characters that were over exaggerated on that show, he might have been at the bottom. Indian immigrants were (and are) forced into working low paying jobs. Having a character represent that is not the problem. The problem is how poorly we integrate immigrants at times. All of which would be great, if he wasn't voiced by Hank Azaria doing a funny Indian accent. ...what? Why are you comparing racist caricatures that wouldn't fly today with the goddamn Flintstones? By the way, a little research would show that most adaptions today just call him Joe or Tattoo Joe. Simple its forced animal labor. Their taking and enslaving wild animals and forcing them to lift heavy boulders and do construction work to build faculties and buildings. But I don't see anyone holding protests over it. Are you telling me Dinosaurs don't have feelings? We're up in arms whenever we discover Dog Fighting Pits but I don't see anyone yelling and complaining and staging rallys to protest Dinosaurs being used not only as labor but as meat as well once their unable to work, what do you think is in Fred's favorite meal Bronto Burgers? Is this a really weird 'bit' you're doing, or do you genuinely think this is making the point about 'PC Thugs' you're trying to make? Because I really feel like it's making you sound unreasonable when a good number of people on here will likely agree with the crux of what you're saying.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,256
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Post by chazraps on Apr 16, 2018 1:18:43 GMT -5
Curious, how do the board members who identify as Indian feel about this?
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Kyn
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,623
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 1:49:54 GMT -5
Simple its forced animal labor. Their taking and enslaving wild animals and forcing them to lift heavy boulders and do construction work to build faculties and buildings. But I don't see anyone holding protests over it. Are you telling me Dinosaurs don't have feelings? We're up in arms whenever we discover Dog Fighting Pits but I don't see anyone yelling and complaining and staging rallys to protest Dinosaurs being used not only as labor but as meat as well once their unable to work, what do you think is in Fred's favorite meal Bronto Burgers? Is this a really weird 'bit' you're doing, or do you genuinely think this is making the point about 'PC Thugs' you're trying to make? Because I really feel like it's making you sound unreasonable when a good number of people on here will likely agree with the crux of what you're saying. I think the point is that some people want so badly to be offended, to show that they're socially progressive and on the side of Good and Right, that they take it to ridiculous lengths. Sometimes it feels like there's a protest group for everything these days, to tell us we're evil people who should feel bad for enjoying anything, no matter how innocuous. So sure, f*** it, why not Rights for Dinosaurs?
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Apr 16, 2018 1:56:28 GMT -5
Apu was always really iffy just thanks to the fact that Azaria is playing him with a really shitty and kinda insensitive accent.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Apr 16, 2018 1:57:04 GMT -5
Is this a really weird 'bit' you're doing, or do you genuinely think this is making the point about 'PC Thugs' you're trying to make? Because I really feel like it's making you sound unreasonable when a good number of people on here will likely agree with the crux of what you're saying. I think the point is that some people want so badly to be offended, to show that they're socially progressive and on the side of Good and Right, that they take it to ridiculous lengths. Sometimes it feels like there's a protest group for everything these days, to tell us we're evil people who should feel bad for enjoying anything, no matter how innocuous. So sure, f*** it, why not Rights for Dinosaurs? One, there aren't any dinosaurs left. Two, if there are any, they weren't easy victims of hate crimes after 9/11, aided in part by decades of otherization by minstrelsy and caricatures like Apu. Also, comparing Indian/South Asian representation to dinosaur representation is just... wow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 2:01:51 GMT -5
“PC thugs” is FAN in 2018’s “you would be in trouble in the streets for calling someone a jobber”:
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Kyn
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,623
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 2:08:31 GMT -5
(...)If anything Apu was painted as the most thoughtful character they had. They shed a light on the long hours immigrants have to work with him, and they made him a forward thinking vegan who was an intellectual. Not once was he ever a dumb immigrant. I would say out of all the characters that were over exaggerated on that show, he might have been at the bottom. (...) That's not the argument though. The argument is that we have a variety/surplus of 'average Americans' on The Simpsons, and indeed western media in general. thousands of them. Likewise, with cops, if you don't like Chief Wiggum, you can look at Lou and Eddie on The Simpsons, or you can go and watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine, or any other number of shows starring cops. Scottish people, old people, even school principals... They're not rare to find. The point the documentary made was that there basically wasn't any representation in the media at that time for Indian Americans, and that one scrap that they got was a stereotype voiced by a white guy doing an impression of an impression (...) This whole situation suggests that every other tv show who didn't include an Indian American character got it right, because the (apparently) only show that did is now getting blowback for it. If the Simpsons could see the future 20 years ago, there would have been no Apu. No Indian American representation. Because why bother including characters from diverse backgrounds when other shows don't, if you're just going to be called racist for it decades later? Speaking broadly, not just about the Simpsons, it's insane that it's not enough to try to be inclusive and show people from all spectrums of life in creative work; you have to do it in a way that doesn't offend anyone now, and won't offend anyone 20 years in the future when cultural attitudes will have changed in ways you can't possibly foresee. People's intentions aren't taken into consideration, it doesn't matter if the mistake you made was innocent. If you f*** up, by god you will pay, and no apology will be sufficient.
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Kyn
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,623
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 2:16:53 GMT -5
I think the point is that some people want so badly to be offended, to show that they're socially progressive and on the side of Good and Right, that they take it to ridiculous lengths. Sometimes it feels like there's a protest group for everything these days, to tell us we're evil people who should feel bad for enjoying anything, no matter how innocuous. So sure, f*** it, why not Rights for Dinosaurs? One, there aren't any dinosaurs left. Two, if there are any, they weren't easy victims of hate crimes after 9/11, aided in part by decades of otherization by minstrelsy and caricatures like Apu. Also, comparing Indian/South Asian representation to dinosaur representation is just... wow. Wow... that was literally not a comparison I made. I have no horse in the race when it comes to Indian American representation (generally speaking). I was talking about the broader issue of 'PC' in general (per the earlier posts in the thread). I'm sorry you somehow managed to read something I didn't say. Should've gone to Specsavers.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 16, 2018 2:20:55 GMT -5
The people talking about it.
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Welfare Willis
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Welfare Willis on Apr 16, 2018 2:26:28 GMT -5
I'd rather they not acknowledge it at all than go with "we hear you, f*** off." Now known as the channel awesome response. But seriously, I understand where the producers are coming from and empathize with those who wish to see Apu portrayed better. I mean having watched a lot of cartoons from the 30s and 40s there's some horrible racist stereotypes in some of those shorts. It was wrong then and now, but that's just the culture of that time. Apu was lucky that he never sunk to that level of offensiveness, but there are some issues with the character that I can see people having with him.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,642
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 16, 2018 2:31:39 GMT -5
Also, yes, he is portrayed as being hardworking and smart. He's also portrayed as not giving a damn about hygiene/health and safety of his store, which is a pretty racist way people see immigrant store owners, particularly here.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Apr 16, 2018 2:54:11 GMT -5
All average Americans are fat and lazy All cops have blue hair and are massively over weight All Scottish people are janitors All old people are incredibly belligerent All principles are over the top virgins who live with their mom If anything Apu was painted as the most thoughtful character they had. They shed a light on the long hours immigrants have to work with him, and they made him a forward thinking vegan who was an intellectual. Not once was he ever a dumb immigrant. I would say out of all the characters that were over exaggerated on that show, he might have been at the bottom. Indian immigrants were (and are) forced into working low paying jobs. Having a character represent that is not the problem. The problem is how poorly we integrate immigrants at times. That's not the argument though. The argument is that we have a variety/surplus of 'average Americans' on The Simpsons, and indeed western media in general. thousands of them. Likewise, with cops, if you don't like Chief Wiggum, you can look at Lou and Eddie on The Simpsons, or you can go and watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine, or any other number of shows starring cops. Scottish people, old people, even school principals... They're not rare to find. The point the documentary made was that there basically wasn't any representation in the media at that time for Indian Americans, and that one scrap that they got was a stereotype voiced by a white guy doing an impression of an impression that was pretty frigging racist itself when it was Peter Sellers doing it in brownface. And that the portrayal didn't exist in a vacuum and affected people growing up seeing themselves painted in this way, and this way only. They're not saying 'Gosh, we sure hate exaggerated characters in The Simpsons'. As you suggest, it's a wider societal issue, and there's more nuance to things than has been presented that way in a lot of the commentary on it, including the responses from the Simpsons crew which make Channel Awesome look like dedicated professionals when it comes to PR. There's one thing I'd particularly like to bring up: Because the thing is, what people are complaining about really isn't. It's a completely superficial detail, one that isn't even part of the issue, but a manifestation of it (you can't blame a social satire for satirizing society). The problem here is that these people are completely ignoring said wider issue and choosing instead to shoot the messenger by desperately latching on to something that's barely related. It's like trying to put out a fire by pissing on a candle somewhere else and calling anybody who doesn't applaud you for it pro-fire. And then picketing fire dancers. Hearing this sort of people talk about social justice reminds me of James Nguyen talking about climate change: I don't doubt that they care about these issues, but they clearly only have a very superficial understanding of them and end up mixing them up with entirely unrelated ones, yet they insist hat they are high authorities on the matter and that it's their role to educate and wag their finger at everyone else, and that the only possible reason anyone might disagree with them or call them out is that they're supporting a non-existent "other side". I mean, I'd get the argument if Apu was just a stereotype, but he isn't. He is a fully fledged character with his own personality and individuality. Hell, as the show went on, him being an Indian store-owner became a less and less important facet of his characterization (and considering this is the show that brought the term "flanderization" to life, that's quite notable). Yet people act like there's nothing to him other than a stereotype. I find it a bit weird to criticize a character's portrayal for not being nuanced enough while ignoring the nuances of said character. Maybe it's because I'm not American and we don't really have that stereotype over here, but I never saw Apu as a caricature of Indian people. He never made me go "Oh, those wacky Indians!" or anything like that. I always saw him as Apu, one character among many in a TV show.
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